Why do cadet squadrons not have Ops sections?

[Eclipse]

The mission of the Army/AF/etc isn't supply, fuels, maint, etc but w/o those functions the mission doesn't happen. We actually need a lot more internal growing of leaders/managers to address our day-to-day & operational needs. Not doing that is a very very limiting factor to our organization.

If the only thing your unit is doing is PD and Personnel, there is no mission.

[SarDragon]

The mission of the Army/AF/etc isn't supply, fuels, maint, etc but w/o those functions the mission doesn't happen. We actually need a lot more internal growing of leaders/managers to address our day-to-day & operational needs. Not doing that is a very very limiting factor to our organization.

If the only thing your unit is doing is PD and Personnel, there is no mission.

Yeah, but it's hard to do the missions w/o PD and Personnel. And Admin, too.

[PHall]

Folks, all I was saying was that it seems strange that it isn't even an option to have an Ops or ES officer (or any of the various assistants) in a cadet squadron despite the obvious fact that many cadet units do participate in ES.  I did not say that every cadet squadron had to do ES or have an ES officer, just that I found it odd that they were technicially prohibited from even having one. 

Now, just because ES isn't an integral part of the cadet program (which it isn't, and I never said that it was), doesn't mean that cadet squadrons shouldn't have the option to have the infrastructure necessary to have an ES program. 

There's nothing in the reg that says that you can't have additional positions if you have a need for them.

If you're in a Cadet Squadron that has an active ES program and you as the Squadron Commander feel you need an Operations Officer, then appoint one and get on with it.

[lordmonar]

I guess this just goes back to why do we differentiate between the type of squadrons in the first place?

A "cadet squadron" that does ES and has a lot of seniors is the same as a "composite Squadron".  A "composite Squadron" with only one or two cadets is functionally the same as a senior squadron.

But we answered your question River....why do they not have not positions?  Because it was not expected that CADET SQUADRONS to be "operational".

It is as simple as that....

So you got two options....

One...add the positions and press one....or add the positions and change your designation.

[BlackKnight]

In my wing we tend to associate "Operations" with flight activity or support thereof. ES is the Emergency Services mission, which encompasses ground teams, comm, flight activities, mission base, general disaster relief support, etc. One of the strongest ES squadrons in my wing is a cadet squadron. They have over a dozen GTLs and almost all the cadets are GTM qualified. But, here's the difference: The wing doesn't assign CAP aircraft to cadet squadrons.  Why? Because cadet squadrons generally don't have the senior Operations personnel (pilots, crew, maintenance chiefs, AOBDs, etc.) to support the air ops mission. Thus Composite or Senior squadrons get the aircraft.

My former CAP unit commander was a USAF Lt Col (ret) who had commanded regular active duty squadrons.  We had so many of our senior staff positions filled with active personnel that he (rightly so IMO) decided that he needed a chief of staff to help coordinate all these folks.  Wing rejected and returned the CAPF-2A.  Said CoS was a wing HQ position only.  So we went ahead and put the rejected 2A in the personnel file and had our "unofficial" Chief of Staff keep doing the job that needed to be done.  Worked great.  YMMV.

[RiverAux]

There's nothing in the reg that says that you can't have additional positions if you have a need for them.

Actually, the regulation tells you exactly which positions are available in a cadet squadron at the option of the squadron commander.  An operations or ES officer is not among them -- hence it is prohibited. 

[lordmonar]

There's nothing in the reg that says that you can't have additional positions if you have a need for them.

Actually, the regulation tells you exactly which positions are available in a cadet squadron at the option of the squadron commander.  An operations or ES officer is not among them -- hence it is prohibited. 

BS....that's all I got to say. 

[Short Field]

In general, if the regulations do not prohibited it, then it is allowed.  Absence of approval is not disapproval.

[SarDragon]

I think BlackKnight covered it very well. If your unit does ground ES stuff, appoint an ES Officer, and get on with your mission. An Ops Officer would be needed more for a unit having aircraft assigned, but then you would probably end up as a composite without question.

21. a. Headquarters organizational structures for each level of command throughout CAP are depicted in part II. This basic organizational structure has been determined to be the most workable structure for all CAP units, and deviations are not authorized, except to expand particular staff elements as required to accomplish the unit's mission.

Keeping with the spirit of the reg, my strategy above would be permitted. To comply with the letter of the reg, I think changing the charter to a composite squadron would be required.

Also:

NOTE: The Operations and the Emergency Services functions may be separated at the option of the [unit] commander.

This also meshes with the strategy above.

In general, if the regulations do not prohibited it, then it is allowed.  Absence of approval is not disapproval.

Ummm...  that's a slippery slope. Some regs are very specific about compliance, and supplements. Others say little, if anything, in that direction. My quote above seems to be between the two extremes.

If it were my cadet unit, I'd appoint the ESO, and let group tell me how to fix it if they didn't like it.

Again paraphrasing: Forgiveness is easier to get than permission.

YMMV.

[sarmed1]

Actually, the regulation tells you exactly which positions are available in a cadet squadron at the option of the squadron commander.  An operations or ES officer is not among them -- hence it is prohibited. 

not so.....
check the org chart...page 22
Figure 17−Cadet Squadron Organizational Chart (Senior Member Positions)

...says special staff officers as required. *

*....11.  Operations

page 24
PART III−SENIOR MEMBER POSITION DESCRIPTIONS
....Also, it should be noted that all phases of each position are covered even though some units do not have a particular need for every task. Local unit commanders are authorized and encouraged to develop more detailed position descriptions for their staff officers to fit the individual unit situation and talents of unit personnel.

Though in the Ops Officer description it doesnt say specifically about ES functions, I think its fair to say since they can be split at the option of the commander at composite & senior squadrons as well as group and wing levels, that it can be assumed that the operations officer is also responsible for ES functions.  So it seems to me if you have a need for OPS/ES and you are a cadet squadron, you can add an OPS officer (cadet or senior) and have ES as part of their responsabilities. 

mk

[ßτε]

If you take a look in CAPM 20-1 p. 23 you will find the organizational chart for cadet squadrons.  In it you will see 7 standard staff officer positions with the option for up to 10 more.  However, you will not find an Operations Officer or Emergency Service officer or any of their assistants. 

Are you sure you are looking at the current version?
Number 11 in the list is Operations as was pointed out in the previous post.

Added:

Of course all this time, I just took your word for it and didn't look it up until this morning.

[SarDragon]

Interesting. The original online version that I downloaded in 2000 (dated 29 May 2000) has a file date of 12/8/2000. It was listed as web only at that time.

The version I just got three weeks ago is also dated 29 May 2000. I don't think there are any earlier electronic versions out there.

[Short Field]

Function before Form.  You organize for the mission - don't get locked into something that detracts from the mission.   As was stressed during ICS 300 and 400 training - follow General Honorae'sadvice "Don't get stuck on Stupid".   

[RiverAux]

Well, this is embarrassing....I was looking at the 1993 version of CAPR 20-1 (the version in my increasingly out-of-date regs binder) which does lack an Ops section option.  The current version, as pointed out, does have an Ops section option added on the end.

If we overlook my stupidity in not checking the current reg (and I wish you would), I am right -- just 8 years late in my arguments.  Can we backdate this whole thread to about 1999?

Sorry 

[SarDragon]

Bottom line on this - if you are looking at a bound/saddle-stapled paper copy of CAPR 20-1, it's out of date. The current version has been web only since its inception.