Why do cadet squadrons not have Ops sections?

[RiverAux]

If you take a look in CAPM 20-1 p. 23 you will find the organizational chart for cadet squadrons.  In it you will see 7 standard staff officer positions with the option for up to 10 more.  However, you will not find an Operations Officer or Emergency Service officer or any of their assistants. 

I find this extremely curious since we all know that we depend primarily upon our cadets for ground team and flightline personnel.  So, who is responsible in cadet units for all the training that needs to be done to ensure that they can particpate? 

Yes, I know that not all cadet units do ES, but many do, and I find it odd that there is not even officially an option to have these staff officers in a cadet unit. 

Oddly enough, the cadet structure in a Cadet Squadron does have Operations Officers which are responsible for "Utilization and control of aircraft and equipment".

I realize that we try to use the cadets as much as possible to train cadets, but I think this is a situation where we want a senior member intimately familiar with ES rules, regs, and training requirements on the job.  Am I right? 

[lordmonar]

As written....CAP cadet squadrons do not have any ES responsibilities.

If your unit started doing ES...and and you are using cadets to do it....congradulations you just became a composite squadron!

[RiverAux]

Please show me where cadet squadrons are prohibited from participating in ES activities...

[Eclipse]

As written....CAP cadet squadrons do not have any ES responsibilities.

If your unit started doing ES...and and you are using cadets to do it....congratulations you just became a composite squadron!

I wouldn't go that far, nor is it necessary.

Please show me where cadet squadrons are prohibited from participating in ES activities...

He didn't say prohibited, just that as a mission of a Cadet Squadron, ES is not specifically included.

Senior members, not connected with cadets, have no reason to belong to CAP if they are not involved in ES.

[RiverAux]

Then show me where "cadet squadrons do not have any ES responsibilities".   Just because they don't have any ES responsibilities doesn't mean that they aren't active participants in ES and if that is the case, then I think there should at least be an option of having an OPs or ES officer when needed.   

[Camas]

Senior members, not connected with cadets, have no reason to belong to CAP if they are not involved in ES.

Sorry Eclipse but I gotta disagree.  I do professional development and personnel and I'm quite happy and content in my little corner by myself doing my thing knowing that I'm doing my small part in making the CAP program successful for my fellow members.  I'm a qualified MRO and MSA so I don't really do much in ES and I'm quite happy with that.

[Earhart1971]

Then show me where "cadet squadrons do not have any ES responsibilities".   Just because they don't have any ES responsibilities doesn't mean that they aren't active participants in ES and if that is the case, then I think there should at least be an option of having an OPs or ES officer when needed.   

My Squadron just changed from "Composite Squadron" to "Cadet Squadron"

We have 66 Members, 40 Cadets and the balance in Seniors.

My last Group Commander said just do away with the designation of Composite, and Cadet, it means NOTHING, and he was sick of trying to explain it.

[Major Carrales]

ES is the ultimate "extracurricular" activity in CAP for cadets.  Many Cadets (en re this generalization) tire of doing mere cadet leadership et al.  Since JROTC offers that, many of our cadets remain in CAP to take part in extracurriculars such as ES (there's one for recruiting and retention Officers to get their mind around).

Thus, in my opinion anyway, a Cadet Squadron with an ES section (guided by CAP Officers, of course) has the same advantage over other similar units that a school with BAND and ATHLETIC Programs has over those schools that do not have such programs.

[lordmonar]

Then show me where "cadet squadrons do not have any ES responsibilities".   Just because they don't have any ES responsibilities doesn't mean that they aren't active participants in ES and if that is the case, then I think there should at least be an option of having an OPs or ES officer when needed.   

CAPM 20-1 Page 23.

If cadet squadrons were expected to have an ES mission.....it would have been part of the organization.

And again...I said "as written".  52-16 says nothing about ES.  A cadet squadron is "supposed" to be just cadet program.  That is why they made a distinction between senior, cadet and composite squadrons.  Senior Squadrons do ES and AE, Cadet Squadrons do CP and AE, and Composite Squadrons do all three missions.

If you have a cadet squadron who is doing ES....you should be a composite squadron.  Do you have to be?  Heck no!  You can make any job you need to run your squadron.  If you need an ES officer or an Ops officer....appoint one.

But if you are a regs hound who wants to do it by the book...then you should also re-designate your squadron.

[Eclipse]

Senior members, not connected with cadets, have no reason to belong to CAP if they are not involved in ES.

Sorry Eclipse but I gotta disagree.  I do professional development and personnel and I'm quite happy and content in my little corner by myself doing my thing knowing that I'm doing my small part in making the CAP program successful for my fellow members.  I'm a qualified MRO and MSA so I don't really do much in ES and I'm quite happy with that.

What are you professionaldevlopizing and personifying?  Cadets and seniors who are involved some aspect of the mission, I hope.

Cause if there's no cadets, and your unit doesn't do ES, then there isn't much point to all that work.
As I have said before, CAP is not the Kellogg School Of Management Auxiliary.

We may help and grow some leaders, but that's not our mission, per se.  The PD and Personnel functions are there to support the 3 main missions, not be a mission unto themselves.

[Short Field]

Professional Development is responsible for helping train and guide members through the PD levels and speciality tracks - which happens to include Cadet Programs.

Personnel keeps the paperwork straight in their personnel records - to document what PD is doing.  In fact, Personnel tends to know all the ins and outs of the regs better than most people, even to the point of being the person the CC asks to determine the correct uniform to wear to a particular event or function.

[Eclipse]

Professional Development is responsible for helping train and guide members through the PD levels and specialty tracks - which happens to include Cadet Programs.

Personnel keeps the paperwork straight in their personnel records - to document what PD is doing.  In fact, Personnel tends to know all the ins and outs of the regs better than most people, even to the point of being the person the CC asks to determine the correct uniform to wear to a particular event or function.

Training people to do what?  If they aren't engaged in one of the missions, what's the point?

[flyguy06]

If you take a look in CAPM 20-1 p. 23 you will find the organizational chart for cadet squadrons.  In it you will see 7 standard staff officer positions with the option for up to 10 more.  However, you will not find an Operations Officer or Emergency Service officer or any of their assistants. 

I find this extremely curious since we all know that we depend primarily upon our cadets for ground team and flightline personnel.  So, who is responsible in cadet units for all the training that needs to be done to ensure that they can particpate? 

Yes, I know that not all cadet units do ES, but many do, and I find it odd that there is not even officially an option to have these staff officers in a cadet unit. 

Oddly enough, the cadet structure in a Cadet Squadron does have Operations Officers which are responsible for "Utilization and control of aircraft and equipment".

I realize that we try to use the cadets as much as possible to train cadets, but I think this is a situation where we want a senior member intimately familiar with ES rules, regs, and training requirements on the job.  Am I right? 

Riveraux,

Why should a cadet Squadron need an ES or OPS oficer? The main purpose of a cadet Squadronis not ES. Its teaching youths how to be leaders in an aerospace environment.

[CAP.is.1337]

In a perfect squadron, all 3 missions should be equally met. In real life, it's a balancing act between the three. Since AE is integrated more thoroughly into the Cadet Program, it becomes easier to let ES fall to the wayside. ES participation is also one of the few things that differentiates us from ACA,  JROTC, Scouting, and other similar programs.

Something else to consider is that there might not be enough interest on the Senior side to allow for a squadron to switch to Composite status.

[SarDragon]

Jeez, y'all need to step back, grab a cold one, and Chillax a bit. I didn't see anyone propose anything so earthshaking or revolutionary that we need to get all up in each other's faces right out of the chute.

The Q: Why do cadet squadrons not have Ops sections?

An answer: As written....CAP cadet squadrons do not have any ES responsibilities.

This is fundamentally true.

*****

b. Cadet Squadron. Comprised primarily of cadets with a minimum of three senior members to meet supervisory, administrative, and training requirements in the conduct of cadet programs.

Cadet Operations Officer
Assists the senior member operations officer (composite squadron) in the performance of his/her duties, to include:
Implementation of higher headquarters directives.
Preparation of reports.
Coordination with other cadet staff sections.
Utilization and control of aircraft and equipment.
Direction of cadet participation in squadron operations.
Related duties as required.
The cadet operations officer should be familiar with CAP directives as listed in CAPP 52-14.

It looks like some of you have not fully read all of the available material in CAPR 20-1, or have quoted only those items that support your POV.

From what I see, if you want to do significant amounts of cadet ES, you should have the cadets in a composite squadron, and have the SM structure to support the ES mission properly. Is it required? Apparently not. I know a cadet unit that works with a composite unit to do cadet ES stuff. My senior unit supported some cadet ES training last summer, and may do so this year, too. Is it as good recommendation? IMHO, yes.

*****
A statement:
"Please show me where cadet squadrons are prohibited from participating in ES activities..."

There isn't anywhere it says that, and I don't see that it was ever implied. The statement was simply as above.

*****
Another statement:
"Senior members, not connected with cadets, have no reason to belong to CAP if they are not involved in ES."

Absolutely, positively wrong.

The manning charts, and accompanying text, show senior squadron staffing (not ES rated positions) to be from 12.5% to 33% directly ES related, with all the other positions supporting the operation of the unit as a whole. I know members who are perfectly content to do staff jobs, and not have anything to directly do with ES. We need these members. F'rinstance, my sweetie does Personnel, with ZERO interest in doing ES. Are you saying she doesn't belong in CAP?

[DNall]

Senior members, not connected with cadets, have no reason to belong to CAP if they are not involved in ES.

Sorry Eclipse but I gotta disagree.  I do professional development and personnel and I'm quite happy and content in my little corner by myself doing my thing knowing that I'm doing my small part in making the CAP program successful for my fellow members.  I'm a qualified MRO and MSA so I don't really do much in ES and I'm quite happy with that.

What are you professionaldevlopizing and personifying?  Cadets and seniors who are involved some aspect of the mission, I hope.

Cause if there's no cadets, and your unit doesn't do ES, then there isn't much point to all that work.
As I have said before, CAP is not the Kellogg School Of Management Auxiliary.

We may help and grow some leaders, but that's not our mission, per se.  The PD and Personnel functions are there to support the 3 main missions, not be a mission unto themselves.

The mission of the Army/AF/etc isn't supply, fuels, maint, etc but w/o those functions the mission doesn't happen. We actually need a lot more internal growing of leaders/managers to address our day-to-day & operational needs. Not doing that is a very very limiting factor to our organization.

[SSgt Rudin]

Something else to consider is that there might not be enough interest on the Senior side to allow for a squadron to switch to Composite status.

Or you have a cadet squadron, who has cadets interested in ES, enough seniors interested to form one ground team, but on the counter more seniors who only want to work with the cadets (mainly parents and grandparents) and who have threatened the wing  to transfer to a different squadron when the wing said "we are going to make you a composite squadron." Fairly difficult to run a squadron going from 25 to 8 senior members in one clean shot.

[LittleIronPilot]

My new squadron is a Senior squadron. There is also a Cadet squadron that meets at the same location on a different night.

Ours is one of the most active Senior Squadrons in the Wing...and we have very little to do with the Cadet squadron. I am sure if a cadet wants to do ES they are more than welcome (I am new so I do not know) but we have no one that is in the Snr. Sqd. that does much with the cadets, by choice I might add.

[RiverAux]

Folks, all I was saying was that it seems strange that it isn't even an option to have an Ops or ES officer (or any of the various assistants) in a cadet squadron despite the obvious fact that many cadet units do participate in ES.  I did not say that every cadet squadron had to do ES or have an ES officer, just that I found it odd that they were technicially prohibited from even having one. 

Now, just because ES isn't an integral part of the cadet program (which it isn't, and I never said that it was), doesn't mean that cadet squadrons shouldn't have the option to have the infrastructure necessary to have an ES program. 

[SarDragon]

Well, I guess the bottom line is this: Add whichever positions you feel that you need to your org chart, start doing business according to the chart, and see what happens at your next SUI/SAV.

Paraphrasing: Forgiveness is easier to get than permission.

[Eclipse]

The mission of the Army/AF/etc isn't supply, fuels, maint, etc but w/o those functions the mission doesn't happen. We actually need a lot more internal growing of leaders/managers to address our day-to-day & operational needs. Not doing that is a very very limiting factor to our organization.

If the only thing your unit is doing is PD and Personnel, there is no mission.

[SarDragon]

The mission of the Army/AF/etc isn't supply, fuels, maint, etc but w/o those functions the mission doesn't happen. We actually need a lot more internal growing of leaders/managers to address our day-to-day & operational needs. Not doing that is a very very limiting factor to our organization.

If the only thing your unit is doing is PD and Personnel, there is no mission.

Yeah, but it's hard to do the missions w/o PD and Personnel. And Admin, too.

[PHall]

Folks, all I was saying was that it seems strange that it isn't even an option to have an Ops or ES officer (or any of the various assistants) in a cadet squadron despite the obvious fact that many cadet units do participate in ES.  I did not say that every cadet squadron had to do ES or have an ES officer, just that I found it odd that they were technicially prohibited from even having one. 

Now, just because ES isn't an integral part of the cadet program (which it isn't, and I never said that it was), doesn't mean that cadet squadrons shouldn't have the option to have the infrastructure necessary to have an ES program. 

There's nothing in the reg that says that you can't have additional positions if you have a need for them.

If you're in a Cadet Squadron that has an active ES program and you as the Squadron Commander feel you need an Operations Officer, then appoint one and get on with it.

[lordmonar]

I guess this just goes back to why do we differentiate between the type of squadrons in the first place?

A "cadet squadron" that does ES and has a lot of seniors is the same as a "composite Squadron".  A "composite Squadron" with only one or two cadets is functionally the same as a senior squadron.

But we answered your question River....why do they not have not positions?  Because it was not expected that CADET SQUADRONS to be "operational".

It is as simple as that....

So you got two options....

One...add the positions and press one....or add the positions and change your designation.

[BlackKnight]

In my wing we tend to associate "Operations" with flight activity or support thereof. ES is the Emergency Services mission, which encompasses ground teams, comm, flight activities, mission base, general disaster relief support, etc. One of the strongest ES squadrons in my wing is a cadet squadron. They have over a dozen GTLs and almost all the cadets are GTM qualified. But, here's the difference: The wing doesn't assign CAP aircraft to cadet squadrons.  Why? Because cadet squadrons generally don't have the senior Operations personnel (pilots, crew, maintenance chiefs, AOBDs, etc.) to support the air ops mission. Thus Composite or Senior squadrons get the aircraft.

My former CAP unit commander was a USAF Lt Col (ret) who had commanded regular active duty squadrons.  We had so many of our senior staff positions filled with active personnel that he (rightly so IMO) decided that he needed a chief of staff to help coordinate all these folks.  Wing rejected and returned the CAPF-2A.  Said CoS was a wing HQ position only.  So we went ahead and put the rejected 2A in the personnel file and had our "unofficial" Chief of Staff keep doing the job that needed to be done.  Worked great.  YMMV.

[RiverAux]

There's nothing in the reg that says that you can't have additional positions if you have a need for them.

Actually, the regulation tells you exactly which positions are available in a cadet squadron at the option of the squadron commander.  An operations or ES officer is not among them -- hence it is prohibited. 

[lordmonar]

There's nothing in the reg that says that you can't have additional positions if you have a need for them.

Actually, the regulation tells you exactly which positions are available in a cadet squadron at the option of the squadron commander.  An operations or ES officer is not among them -- hence it is prohibited. 

BS....that's all I got to say. 

[Short Field]

In general, if the regulations do not prohibited it, then it is allowed.  Absence of approval is not disapproval.

[SarDragon]

I think BlackKnight covered it very well. If your unit does ground ES stuff, appoint an ES Officer, and get on with your mission. An Ops Officer would be needed more for a unit having aircraft assigned, but then you would probably end up as a composite without question.

21. a. Headquarters organizational structures for each level of command throughout CAP are depicted in part II. This basic organizational structure has been determined to be the most workable structure for all CAP units, and deviations are not authorized, except to expand particular staff elements as required to accomplish the unit's mission.

Keeping with the spirit of the reg, my strategy above would be permitted. To comply with the letter of the reg, I think changing the charter to a composite squadron would be required.

Also:

NOTE: The Operations and the Emergency Services functions may be separated at the option of the [unit] commander.

This also meshes with the strategy above.

In general, if the regulations do not prohibited it, then it is allowed.  Absence of approval is not disapproval.

Ummm...  that's a slippery slope. Some regs are very specific about compliance, and supplements. Others say little, if anything, in that direction. My quote above seems to be between the two extremes.

If it were my cadet unit, I'd appoint the ESO, and let group tell me how to fix it if they didn't like it.

Again paraphrasing: Forgiveness is easier to get than permission.

YMMV.

[sarmed1]

Actually, the regulation tells you exactly which positions are available in a cadet squadron at the option of the squadron commander.  An operations or ES officer is not among them -- hence it is prohibited. 

not so.....
check the org chart...page 22
Figure 17−Cadet Squadron Organizational Chart (Senior Member Positions)

...says special staff officers as required. *

*....11.  Operations

page 24
PART III−SENIOR MEMBER POSITION DESCRIPTIONS
....Also, it should be noted that all phases of each position are covered even though some units do not have a particular need for every task. Local unit commanders are authorized and encouraged to develop more detailed position descriptions for their staff officers to fit the individual unit situation and talents of unit personnel.

Though in the Ops Officer description it doesnt say specifically about ES functions, I think its fair to say since they can be split at the option of the commander at composite & senior squadrons as well as group and wing levels, that it can be assumed that the operations officer is also responsible for ES functions.  So it seems to me if you have a need for OPS/ES and you are a cadet squadron, you can add an OPS officer (cadet or senior) and have ES as part of their responsabilities. 

mk

[ßτε]

If you take a look in CAPM 20-1 p. 23 you will find the organizational chart for cadet squadrons.  In it you will see 7 standard staff officer positions with the option for up to 10 more.  However, you will not find an Operations Officer or Emergency Service officer or any of their assistants. 

Are you sure you are looking at the current version?
Number 11 in the list is Operations as was pointed out in the previous post.

Added:

Of course all this time, I just took your word for it and didn't look it up until this morning.

[SarDragon]

Interesting. The original online version that I downloaded in 2000 (dated 29 May 2000) has a file date of 12/8/2000. It was listed as web only at that time.

The version I just got three weeks ago is also dated 29 May 2000. I don't think there are any earlier electronic versions out there.

[Short Field]

Function before Form.  You organize for the mission - don't get locked into something that detracts from the mission.   As was stressed during ICS 300 and 400 training - follow General Honorae'sadvice "Don't get stuck on Stupid".   

[RiverAux]

Well, this is embarrassing....I was looking at the 1993 version of CAPR 20-1 (the version in my increasingly out-of-date regs binder) which does lack an Ops section option.  The current version, as pointed out, does have an Ops section option added on the end.

If we overlook my stupidity in not checking the current reg (and I wish you would), I am right -- just 8 years late in my arguments.  Can we backdate this whole thread to about 1999?

Sorry 

[SarDragon]

Bottom line on this - if you are looking at a bound/saddle-stapled paper copy of CAPR 20-1, it's out of date. The current version has been web only since its inception.