Advanced Initial Grade and the Prof Dev Program

[RiverAux]

Many know that I am not in favor of CAP offering ANY advanced rank to new CAP members and that I believe ALL members should only advance through duty performance promotions.  But, that is not exactly what I want to discuss here.

I am interested in seeing how many CAP members who receive an initial advanced CAP grade for any of the currently authorized reasons, later go on to "catch up" in the CAP professional development program and receive regular duty performance promotions. 

If most of these folks do catch up, perhaps the advanced promotions aren't as bad as I and others think. 

[Trung Si Ma]

I got Captain when I turned 21 for a 1st Class FCC License and got my Loening the same year.  The GRW came later.

[Short Field]

Most new members awarded advanced initial grade that I have seen since joining fail into two camps.

One camp has the members that never really got involved and let their memberships expire after the first or second year.   The second camp starts taking all the required PD courses and begins progressing up the PD levels.  It seems to be about a 50/50 split.  

I really can't think of any relatively new members in the squadron (about 100 senior members) that actively participate who are not progressing in professional development. We even have a couple of new members that will probably get their Wilson awards within four years of joining CAP.

We do have a small handful of older members who got awarded their advanced iniital grade for military service and are just sitting on it without participating in PD.  I am not sure what the climate was in the squadron toward PD when they joined.  They show up for some exercises, meetings, and missions but are otherwise not active in helping run the squadron.  However, recently we are even seeing some interest in PD from them.

[SSgt Rudin]

I have noticed that most members who are advanced due to "Special Skills" seem to promote slower after their initial advanced promotion. The consensus among them is that "They have more work for their next promotion" then the other members.

If you come in as a SMWOG you have 36 months before your are eligible for Captain, that is a lot of time to go to two conferences, SLS, TLC, ECI-13, Complete technician and senior rating, etc. However if you come in as a Captain you have the same 3 years that your other counterparts have to meet the requirements for Major but you also have to meet the requirements for 1st Lt and Capt. So unless they are independently wealthy and can do nothing but CAP they are going to promote slower and possibly become discouraged.

[adamblank]

Many know that I am not in favor of CAP offering ANY advanced rank to new CAP members and that I believe ALL members should only advance through duty performance promotions.  But, that is not exactly what I want to discuss here.

I am interested in seeing how many CAP members who receive an initial advanced CAP grade for any of the currently authorized reasons, later go on to "catch up" in the CAP professional development program and receive regular duty performance promotions. 

If most of these folks do catch up, perhaps the advanced promotions aren't as bad as I and others think. 

I know that you said all, but would this also encompass former cadets.  I see that you wrote new CAP members, but how do you feel about that?  Do you feel that it is reasonable the way it is?

[MIKE]

I know that you said all, but would this also encompass former cadets.  I see that you wrote new CAP members, but how do you feel about that?  Do you feel that it is reasonable the way it is?

No.

[RiverAux]

Lets stipulate that we are talking about CAP members who join and get advanced grade and then stay in for 2+ years and not worry about those that drop out fairly quickly. 

adam-- thats right -- no advanced promotions for anyone, including former cadets.  But, thats off topic...

[James Shaw]

Effective Dates of Promotion
Second Lieutenant September 2001    Level 1 September 2001
First Lieutenant November 2002          Level 2 November 2002
Captain September 2004                     Level 3 September 2004
Major December 2006                          Level 4 July 2007

I received advancement for Squadron Commander Duty after 1 year from 1st Lt. to Captain. I was DDR Squadron Commander for 3 years.

I received special promotion from Captain to Major due to duty performance.

I am almost done with Level 5 requirements. All I need is National Staff College and I plan on attending that this October. It is my birthday present to myself.
I have kept a decent pace with PD to go along with my current rank and responsibilities.

[Wizard]

Joined CAP 09May 2006
Completed Level 1: 15 May 2006
Completed Level 2: 15 December 2006
Completed Level 3: 18 March 2008
Completed Level 4: 09 May 2008

Effective dates of Promotion:

2nd Lieutenant- 15 November 2006
Major-                 28 December 2006

Level 5 to be completed on 09 May 2009.  The only items pending are directing an SLS and three years in a command/staff position.  Dragged my feet with my Senior Rating in AE or level 3 would have been done sooner.  Master Rating complete as of 22 April 2008.

In a holding pattern until I complete Air Command and Staff College in October.

[AlphaSigOU]

Rejoined CAP (after 17-year break in membership): 17 Oct 2005
Level I: 22 Nov 2005
Level II: 25 July 2006
Level III: 24 Jan 2007
Level IV: All requirements complete except for either getting up off my duff and complete SOS. Or hoof it to RSC.
Level V: A gleam in my eye right now.

1st Lt: 23 Jan 2006 (Special appointment, former cadet (Earhart). Lost my seniority from my previous promotion to 1st Lt back in the 80s.)
Capt: 14 July 2007
Major: God willing, and the creek don't rise, anytime after July 2010.

[AlphaSigOU]

I'll probably get pilloried for this, but here's how I would like to see advanced initial grades handled:

I can see encouraging cadets who are about to succumb to the 'dark side' at 21 a little extra icing on the cake by giving them a leg up on already-completed officer PD requirements taken as a cadink as well as advanced grade. As long as there is no break in membership (no more than two years). After two years break in membership, promotion only considered after completion of Level I and six months as a member.

As for any other special appointment promotion? Completion of Level I and six months as a member. Plus the member should include as part of his promotion package how he or she can benefit CAP with advanced grade because of mission-essential skills/former military grade/professional specialty/chaplain, etc. No more 'shake and bake'!

[Tim Medeiros]

Original Join Date 9 Aug 99, dark side on 19 Jan 2007 (though NHQ decided my date of rank for SM should be 9 Aug 99, when I was 13)
LV1 = 19 Jan 2007
LV2 = 14 Mar 2007
LV3 - 17 Apr 2007

Promoted to Capt on 25 Jan 2007

Only waiting on a master rating (waiting on approval from the commander) for LV4, and NSC for LV5

[RiverAux]

Folks, I'm not seeing how your PD history relates to the topic at hand....

[Tim Medeiros]

For me, it goes with this section of your initial post "I am interested in seeing how many CAP members who receive an initial advanced CAP grade for any of the currently authorized reasons, later go on to "catch up" in the CAP professional development program and receive regular duty performance promotions."  I was merely providing information that I received advanced initial grade then progressed in the PD program.

[Ranger75]

I completed the Cadet Program back in the 70s.  After returning to CAP after a break of 32 years, I have set a personal goal of completing the Senior Professional Development Program.

DOR Capt, CAP - 1974 (Former Spaatz Cadet)
DOR LTC, CAP -22 Aug 06 (AD COL)
LV1 - 24 Jan 2006  
LV2 - 28 Aug 2006  
LV3 - 19 Sep 2007  
LV4 - 10 Jan 2008
LV5 - All requirements met with the exception of serving as Director of a PD course

[ßτε]

Folks, I'm not seeing how your PD history relates to the topic at hand....

I think they are showing you that they had advanced promotions and are progressing in PD.

[RiverAux]

They're a sample of one which is not terribly helpful to the conversation.   

[Wizard]

I am interested in seeing how many CAP members who receive an initial advanced CAP grade for any of the currently authorized reasons, later go on to "catch up" in the CAP professional development program and receive regular duty performance promotions. 

They're a sample of one which is not terribly helpful to the conversation.   

how so?  With the exception of Ranger75 who is a former AD Colonel...those of us who've responded have continued on with the CAP Professional Development program AND have been promoted and/or are eligible (in several cases) for regular duty performance promotions...how is this not helpful?

[RiverAux]

Because we're talking statistics here.  In your personal experience 100% of YOU have gone ahead, which means nothing when looking at CAP membership as a whole. 

Please note that nearly 50% of poll respondents have indicated that 25% or less of members who have received advanced promotions go on to participate in PD.  I don't claim that that sample is statistically valid, but it is a lot closer than individual examples presented here. 

[chiles]

That's very true. And I'd like to point out that this is a convenience study. There are no blinds, no questionnaires, no mixing backgrounds. I'd bet that a sizeable portion of the people who spend a decent amount of time here are the ones not doing the PD program. Of that same group of cohorts and you will likely find that they have, in some way, known or worked with someone who sat on an appointed rank and didn't budge and inch.

For this study to truly be complete, you will at least need 30 people (as that's what I was taught was valid minimum sample). There should be a lot more and a cross section of the squadron (e.g. randomly picking people from all walks of CAP, even those who are the embodiment of a senior member not making it past their advanced rank promotion). I would believe that the amount of people who receive advanced promotion and begins climbing the PD later are simply outnumbered by those members who did not get a professional promotion and have had some small, or large, experience with someone who did and refused to go further.

In reality, I have seen a great many people enter CAP with an advanced grade and they worked to complete the program anyway. The Maryland Wing Commander, Col Weiss, was in my SLS course. I taught a class for it, as well as attended, and he mentioned that he would feel that he didn't do a part of his duty by leading from the front and go through the training that expects others to. I think that this process is repeated by many professional appointed senior members. It certainly happened to me. I sported a butter bar because of my Mitchell and until the professional appointment came, then I was pinned 1st Lt. I just got promoted to Captain a few months ago and though it could have been done through the professional appointment system without requiring me to move above Level 1, I did it anyway. Just some food for thought.

[arajca]

That's very true. And I'd like to point out that this is a convenience study. There are no blinds, no questionnaires, no mixing backgrounds. I'd bet that a sizeable portion of the people who spend a decent amount of time here are the ones not doing the PD program. Of that same group of cohorts and you will likely find that they have, in some way, known or worked with someone who sat on an appointed rank and didn't budge and inch.

I'll take your bet. From what I've seen, most the folks who spend a decent amount of time here ARE the ones doing the PD program.

In reality, I have seen a great many people enter CAP with an advanced grade and they worked to complete the program anyway. The Maryland Wing Commander, Col Weiss, was in my SLS course. I taught a class for it, as well as attended, and he mentioned that he would feel that he didn't do a part of his duty by leading from the front and go through the training that expects others to. I think that this process is repeated by many professional appointed senior members. It certainly happened to me. I sported a butter bar because of my Mitchell and until the professional appointment came, then I was pinned 1st Lt. I just got promoted to Captain a few months ago and though it could have been done through the professional appointment system without requiring me to move above Level 1, I did it anyway. Just some food for thought.

Most of the advanced promotions I have seen are pilots who got their Capt's bars and only did Level I and CPPT because they were told they couldn't fly CAP aircraft if they didn't do that. Most won't even try to use the "I don't have time for PD" excuse - they just don't care about it, although a couple have asked why they can't make Maj after being a Capt for three years. I've seen a few military promotions and they've been about a 50-50 split on doing PD.

Based on my experience - and yours will most likely vary - most advance promoters don't backfill PD.

[Bluelakes 13]

Hmm,  how were you able to get a Senior rating in that short time span?

Original Join Date 9 Aug 99, dark side on 19 Jan 2007 (though NHQ decided my date of rank for SM should be 9 Aug 99, when I was 13)
LV1 = 19 Jan 2007
LV2 = 14 Mar 2007
LV3 - 17 Apr 2007

Promoted to Capt on 25 Jan 2007

Only waiting on a master rating (waiting on approval from the commander) for LV4, and NSC for LV5

[Flying Pig]

I got 1st Lt. for having my Mitchell.

[mikeylikey]

I got 1st Lt. for having my Mitchell.

??  So the Mitchell gets a former Cadet 1st Lt??

[Flying Pig]

OOOOPs, I meant 2nd Lt.

[DogCollar]

I joined in June of 2006 and received my Chaplain's appointment in September of '06, with the grade of Captain.  Since that time, I have been working on the Chaplaincy specialty track PLUS I will be doing SLS this weekend, and I am half way through AFIADL 13.  I have completed both 221 and 221A in the Chaplaincy track.  Simultaneously, I am working on getting my Mission Chaplain rating.

[dwb]

LV1 = 19 Jan 2007
LV2 = 14 Mar 2007
LV3 - 17 Apr 2007

Don't you have to serve in a command or staff position for one year to get Level III?  Jan-Apr is four months.  Also, you managed to attend two Wing or Region conferences and earn a Senior rating in a specialty track in that span of four months?

I may be out of line, but I have to throw a BS flag here.  At the very least, this kind of rapid level completion isn't in the spirit of the CAP professional development program.

[Tim Medeiros]

I earned the senior rating as a cadet, in communications, authorized IAW 100-1V1 Chapter 4 at the time.

Commander at the time authorized my service on group and squadron staff as a cadet (prior to the 1 Oct 2006 version of CAPR 52-16 which stated cadets can no longer serve as non-assistants, at that point in time I switched to being an assistant.)  Positions included DDRO for both group and squadron which started on 23 Dec 2004, I also served as Assistant Admin Officer at group, IT then Assistant IT officer at both group and squadron, I also assisted the PD Officer at group.

In regards to the conferences, again commander decided "time served" as I had attended each wing conference since 2002, in addition to the NB in Tampa in 2004.

My reason for the rapid completion was I am currently in the school mindset and I have spare time, with my future plans (joining the Air Force) I know for a fact my time in the future will be limited.

Before anyone doubts my PD course completions, I completed ECI/AFIADL-13 in Sept 2006, SLS first weekend in Mar 2007 and CLC on the third weekend of the same month.

If anyone else has any questions in regards to my record, please feel free to ask, that portion of my record is in my opinion an open book.  I would however recommend taking it to PM so as to not hijack this thread any more than it already has been.

[SSgt Rudin]

I can see encouraging cadets who are about to succumb to the 'dark side' at 21 a little extra icing on the cake by giving them a leg up on already-completed officer PD requirements taken as a cadink as well as advanced grade.

Icing on the cake? You have sat threw the PD courses, I would be hard pressed to find a regularly active C/officer who couldn't pass LVL1, get a master rating in CP, and pass ECI-13, SLS, TLC, CLC (and some C/maj's^ who could do RSC) with out opening a book. I know of one cadet who sat for the ECI-13 test and passed with an 90% with out even knowing what the test was on.

The things we are required to learn are what our cadets learn in Phase 1-3, I can not see NOT automatically promoting former c/officers.

[lordmonar]

Let's face it....PD is more or less a joke.  Not that the material is a joke or the people doing the training are not professonal or are not doing a good job.  But for the most part it is too little too late.

If you have a professional degree or skills that grant you higher promotion....then you don't need the skipped PD classes...by definition.

If you need the classes then we should not be giving them the advanced promotion.

They will need to catch up to progress....but that will depend on the individual.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I joined in July 2003.  I was promoted to Captain in January 2004 as a Legal Officer.   I decided early on that I was going to complete the whole program required or not.   I first became a Scanner and Observer.   Then I started getting other staff positions.  Logistics Officer, Professional Development Officer and ES Training Officer.    I went to SLS in 2006, CLC and UCC in 2007.  I became Squadron Commander in July of 2007.   I was promoted to Major in October of 2007.

So although the initial promotion was given to me, I worked my butt off to complete everything anyone else would have to do to make Major.  In order for me to become a Lt Col, I do have the choice of going to either the National Legal College, RSC, or taking SOS through AFIADL.   The National Legal College is better because I can get my required Continuing Legal Education at the same time.

We have several Special Appointments, Teachers and CFI's and they all work very hard for my Squadron and CAP.  I certainly would not begrudge the extra rank for all that they do.

[FW]

I've seen it both ways.  Most I've known went through the PD program all the way.
Those that did not, felt it would be a waste of time.  Those that did, felt a need to be more "integrated" with the membership and the whole program.
For me, I did it to meet and interact with more of the membership.  Wether it was going to a conference, teaching a course, giving a talk to a community group or going to NSC, I found it to be anything other than a waste. It was a great learning experience.

Promotion to an advanced grade for special skills, taking on extra responsibility or previous military grade is part of our culture, and has been for many years.  No one forces a member to progress up the PD program, nor should.  IMHO, it's an individual choice and it should be respected.  I know of many active pilots, communicators, Legal Officers, etc.  who do their CAP jobs with distinction and have never progressed past Level 2.  It doesn't bother me in the least.

[dwb]

Let's face it....PD is more or less a joke.

Allow me to disagree.  I think CAP has (finally) started to put some good brains on the problem of CAP PD, and we've seen the payoff: the new SLS and CLC curriculums are much better than their predecessors, TLC is wonderful, and it sounds like they're finally getting around to updating the CAP Officer Course (AFIADL-13).  Hopefully an overhaul of UCC will come around sometime soon.

There are still two lingering problems with PD that make it difficult to realize its potential, and one of them is nobody's fault.

The first is that we still lack a coherent way of training our instructors and in-residence program directors.  The result is great disparity in the quality of program delivery.  To use SLS as an example, the content used to be the biggest problem; the instructor materials and slides were awful.  Now they're much better, but you still need to do your homework as an instructor, and still need to know how to speak in front of a group and lead a guided discussion.

The second factor weighing on our PD program, and one that is nobody's fault, is that CAP doesn't have an "up-or-out" promotion system like the USAF.  You can linger at 1st Lt for 10+ years because you don't feel like doing the ADL-13 course, and still participate actively and contribute great things.

IOW, as good as our PD program has become, it's still completely optional.

I'm not saying mandatory progression through the PD program is the answer, I haven't thought through all the ramifications of such a policy.  But I do think we could train our instructors/directors better, and if we were able to provide consistently high quality PD over a sufficiently long enough period of time, I think you'd see a rise in the overall quality of our officers, and that certainly isn't a bad thing.

[lordmonar]

Don't get me wrong....the PD program is good....in that the material is professional and relevant....but in the context of advanced promotion....it is a waist of time.

By the time a CAP officer gets the training he/she no longer "needs" it.  It becomes a box filling exercise.

[link]

If you come in as a SMWOG you have 36 months before your are eligible for Captain, that is a lot of time to go to two conferences, SLS, TLC, ECI-13, Complete technician and senior rating, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you've just combined Levels 2 and 3.  For Captain all you need is Level 2 which is Tech Rating, SLS, and the ECI 13.

"To complete this level and earn the Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. Award, you will become technician rated in a specialty track (earning the leadership ribbon), and complete the "CAP Senior Officer Correspondence Course" (commonly called "ECI-13" for the old pamphlet number given to this course). See CAPR 50-17 for details on these requirements." 

"After completing Level Two, you are prepared for Level Three.

To complete this level and earn the Grover Leoning Award and the Loening ribbon, you will become senior rated in a specialty track, attend two major conferences, serve in a staff or command assignment for at least one year, and complete the Corporate Learning Course. See CAPR 50-17 for details on these requirements. " That is right off the national website. 

[davedove]

If you come in as a SMWOG you have 36 months before your are eligible for Captain, that is a lot of time to go to two conferences, SLS, TLC, ECI-13, Complete technician and senior rating, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you've just combined Levels 2 and 3.  For Captain all you need is Level 2 which is Tech Rating, SLS, and the ECI 13.

"To complete this level and earn the Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. Award, you will become technician rated in a specialty track (earning the leadership ribbon), and complete the "CAP Senior Officer Correspondence Course" (commonly called "ECI-13" for the old pamphlet number given to this course). See CAPR 50-17 for details on these requirements." 

"After completing Level Two, you are prepared for Level Three.

To complete this level and earn the Grover Leoning Award and the Loening ribbon, you will become senior rated in a specialty track, attend two major conferences, serve in a staff or command assignment for at least one year, and complete the Corporate Learning Course. See CAPR 50-17 for details on these requirements. " That is right off the national website. 

I believe it was in reference to promotion to Major (if I'm wrong please correct me).  If you advance up to Captain through duty performance, you have three years as Captain, plus three more to make Major, making six years to complete Level III.

If you get advanced promotion to Captain, you then only have three years to complete the same requirements to make Major.

Although, if you can time the courses right, you can complete Level III in a year and a half.  I know because I did it.

[0]

If you come in as a SMWOG you have 36 months before your are eligible for Captain, that is a lot of time to go to two conferences, SLS, TLC, ECI-13, Complete technician and senior rating, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you've just combined Levels 2 and 3.  For Captain all you need is Level 2 which is Tech Rating, SLS, and the ECI 13.

"To complete this level and earn the Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. Award, you will become technician rated in a specialty track (earning the leadership ribbon), and complete the "CAP Senior Officer Correspondence Course" (commonly called "ECI-13" for the old pamphlet number given to this course). See CAPR 50-17 for details on these requirements." 

"After completing Level Two, you are prepared for Level Three.

To complete this level and earn the Grover Leoning Award and the Loening ribbon, you will become senior rated in a specialty track, attend two major conferences, serve in a staff or command assignment for at least one year, and complete the Corporate Learning Course. See CAPR 50-17 for details on these requirements. " That is right off the national website. 

I believe it was in reference to promotion to Major (if I'm wrong please correct me).  If you advance up to Captain through duty performance, you have three years as Captain, plus three more to make Major, making six years to complete Level III.

If you get advanced promotion to Captain, you then only have three years to complete the same requirements to make Major.

Although, if you can time the courses right, you can complete Level III in a year and a half.  I know because I did it.

I looked back Link shortened the full message.  WIth the first part it could go either way.

[James Shaw]

The chart has it all. Copied from current version on NHQ eservices.

[Short Field]

Yes it is!!  That is the only piece of paper I always keep under my keyboard for quick reference at the squadron.      Oh, and my glasses so I can read the small print....

[Short Field]

To use SLS as an example, the content used to be the biggest problem; the instructor materials and slides were awful.  Now they're much better, but you still need to do your homework as an instructor, and still need to know how to speak in front of a group and lead a guided discussion.

Amen....

[arajca]

Slightly off topic, but related...

Do you see advanced promoters wearing senior awards, such as the Leadership Ribbon, they haven't earned because they promoted over them and haven't backfilled? If so, do you think it is right?

[James Shaw]

I do not feel that you should claim or wear anything you have not worked for or completed. I do not care personally if it is a recruiting ribbon or the red service ribbon. I also strongly believe that you should wear what you have earned.

My 2 Cents Worth

[dwb]

I actually have no problem with promotions that are not based strictly on duty performance.  The special appointment promotions are cool with me; rank is one of the few things we can use to recognize members that add value to the organization.

However, the more it rolls around in my head, the more I like the idea of mandatory professional development progression.  We can be reasonable about the timeframes, and maybe only require the progression up to Level III, making IV and V optional for the hard-chargers and senior leaders.

I think I'm going to start a new thread about that, and stop trying to bend this thread to my will...

[chiles]

Slightly off topic, but related...

Do you see advanced promoters wearing senior awards, such as the Leadership Ribbon, they haven't earned because they promoted over them and haven't backfilled? If so, do you think it is right?

I think that's in direct violation of what is required to achieve a reward. There is a difference between the professional development series and rank. The PD series is a prerequisite for rank advancement, but not the other way around. Rank is not indicative of PD completion for the reasons discussed throughout this thread. So, if someone is given an advanced rank upon entry of CAP but have not completed the levels of PD development required for an award, or they have not completed the requirements for advancement through a specialty track, they are not authorized award and, if they knowingly wear the ribbons in violation, there is an issue of integrity.

[futura]

Rejoined CAP (after 33-year break in membership): 23 Jun 2004

Level I: 30 Jun 2004
Level II: 26 Sep 2007
Level III: 12 Feb 2008
Level IV: Have approximately half of the requirements completed

Once my application was found and the smoke cleared, I came in as a 1st Lt having been a former Earhart cadet. I knew that I had kept that old CAP Times for a reason.

Great thread by the way.

Captain Futura 08 Dec 2007

[jpnelson82]

I'm pleased that CAP allows some Seniors to get Advanced initial grades. I for one, as a former cadet Major would be upset if I spent years as a cadet, earned an Earhart or Spaatz and got nothing for it. That would make me very upset. To have to start over at the bottom of the totem pole after all that effort would be insulting.