Hey did you know... Not every member pays the same membership dues

[mynetdude]

According to an email with a PDF attached from my squadron commander, it had a list of what members pay in dues for each wing.  Oregon is one of the two wings that have members that pay the most in dues yearly.

What a surprise too, I had the impression everyone paid the same dues within CAP.

Here's the facts:  (converted to PDF for easier viewing), see attached.

I am curious why NHQ has different dues for each wing/region? Is it because more people are abundant in certain areas?  I also noticed that squadrons CAN levy local membership dues but that has to be approved by the wing king and most do not charge local dues anyhow except I know our squadron charges an upfront small fee to cover BDU tapes, name badges and their CAP cutouts for new cadets and we also have a letter that goes to the parents that explain that, it shows the NHQ dues and then a separate payment for the "starter kit" cadets need at our squadron they are never charged again for their grade cutouts unless they lose one.

So I thought for kickers... this was interesting.

[arajca]

Every SM pays the same National dues. The difference is from Region and Wing dues collected through National. It is easier to have members make one payment instead of three and the likelihood of someone paying only one of the three is eliminated.

[Pylon]

Topic A:  Yes, as arajca pointed out, there is one flat fee for National membership.  Some wings add on additional amounts for members of their wing, which go towards funding the various operations in their Wing.  National allows each wing and region HQ to decide the amount they would like to additionally collect, dependent on the needs of that Wing.

Topic B:  Yes, many squadrons do the same "cadet starter kit" idea.  It saves sending new members to two or more different vendors/websites to order uniform items which they've never seen before.  It prevents members from buying the wrong items and from ordering things they don't need.  It also allows the squadron the opportunity to ensure everybody gets the minimum items they need to wear their uniform.   As you mentioned, it's a one-time deal for new cadets.

[DNall]

Wg/Reg dues charged thru NHQ. They got that right.

I wonder though if it wouldn't be good to standardize that nationally with a set percentage going to Wg & Reg.

I also wonder if Sq/Gp dues could be incorporated thru NHQ, or if a percentage of the Wg dues could be placed in the Sq acct (being it's under wing banker now).

[Pylon]

I wonder though if it wouldn't be good to standardize that nationally with a set percentage going to Wg & Reg.

I think there are too many variables to set a specific $  or % for each wing.  Some wings don't need any member dues and get along just fine.  Some wings receive funding from their state, other's don't.  Some wings have higher cost of living and cost of goods to contend with.  Some wings have rent free Wing HQ facilities, others pay leases or mortgages and utilities.  Some wings can spread costs across many members, other smaller wings may only have a few hundred members from which to collect dues.

There's little confusion the way it is now.   When I log in to e-services to renew or receive my renewal mailing, the appropriate rate is already indicated.  I don't need to consult any chart or graph. 

This way, wings that need more can ask for more.  Wings that need less or none at all can save their members those few extra bucks.  Why standardize something that doesn't need it?

[mikeylikey]

We pay a lot in PAWG and we are one of the Wings that get lots of $$ from the state.  I figure we have to pay the Wing's Executive Directors salary of $94,000 and the five other paid Wing employees.  We also have one of the highest membership costs for attendance at Encampment and Senior Member Professional Development courses.  I always thought the Wing should be run like a business, and they took that concept and decided to run it like a for profit business, and not a non-profit.  They really stick it to the members with the dues and other costs. 

With Gasoline possibly going to around $5.00 before summer is over, many people may start to rethink their service in CAP.  I can't afford to pay over $300.00 this summer in GAS to attend the Wings one and only CLC.  If you live in PAWG, and you live near Philadelphia your CAP costs are minimal, but if you live anywhere else, you can expect to dump $$ (a lot of $$) on getting to the Philadelphia area and staying overnight there. 

I honestly can't wait to get out of PAWG.  The leadership and Costs are too crazy.  I was really hoping for New York (West Point), but after Afghanistan it looks like maybe Maryland or Virginia.

[DNall]

I wonder though if it wouldn't be good to standardize that nationally with a set percentage going to Wg & Reg.

I think there are too many variables to set a specific $  or % for each wing.  Some wings don't need any member dues and get along just fine.  Some wings receive funding from their state, other's don't.  Some wings have higher cost of living and cost of goods to contend with.  Some wings have rent free Wing HQ facilities, others pay leases or mortgages and utilities.  Some wings can spread costs across many members, other smaller wings may only have a few hundred members from which to collect dues.

There's little confusion the way it is now.   When I log in to e-services to renew or receive my renewal mailing, the appropriate rate is already indicated.  I don't need to consult any chart or graph. 

This way, wings that need more can ask for more.  Wings that need less or none at all can save their members those few extra bucks.  Why standardize something that doesn't need it?

Yeah, that's all fair. I was thinking more raise it to a standardized number & then distribute proportionally or by budget, but you're right. With major factors like rent & such I'm not sure that's realistic. I do think state funding should not be counted in that equation. I appreciate if a state wants to subsidize CAP membership, but I think they're giving us money (in the cases where they are) mostly to fund operational capability in support of them. I'd rather use it for that.

I do appreciate that we all spend a truck load of money in CAP every year, and that's unfortunate. An extra 10 or 20 once a year on dues isn't a huge deal though. I'd rather that be the case & the fees for stuff like encampment & trng be lower. It should never be the case that mikey stated above in PAWG. That sounds like bad mgmt.

I was really more interested though in the Wing internal side of that. The push those dues up a bit to create a budget pushed out to Sqs. Some of that proportionately, but also in the form of grant/budget requests. If you control some purse strings, you get a lot more responsiveness & compliance from your subordinate units. If they don't need you they aren't going to listen to you.

[FW]

We pay a lot in PAWG and we are one of the Wings that get lots of $$ from the state.  I figure we have to pay the Wing's Executive Directors salary of $94,000 and the five other paid Wing employees.  We also have one of the highest membership costs for attendance at Encampment and Senior Member Professional Development courses.  I always thought the Wing should be run like a business, and they took that concept and decided to run it like a for profit business, and not a non-profit.  They really stick it to the members with the dues and other costs. 

With Gasoline possibly going to around $5.00 before summer is over, many people may start to rethink their service in CAP.  I can't afford to pay over $300.00 this summer in GAS to attend the Wings one and only CLC.  If you live in PAWG, and you live near Philadelphia your CAP costs are minimal, but if you live anywhere else, you can expect to dump $$ (a lot of $$) on getting to the Philadelphia area and staying overnight there. 

I honestly can't wait to get out of PAWG.  The leadership and Costs are too crazy.  I was really hoping for New York (West Point), but after Afghanistan it looks like maybe Maryland or Virginia.

PAWG dues are $10/year.  That's among the lowest of all the wings.  The dues go directly back to the squadrons for their use.  Wing/HQ does not use any of those funds.

PAWG cadets are given, I think, a $25 "subsidy" for all wing summer activities (it could be more now).  The cost of summer encampment in 2007 was about $125 for the week.  I think that is in line with what other wings are charging.

Of the $500k the wing gets from the state, $75k is expressly for the school program.  Of the remainder, about 25% is used for state missions/training, about 35% for salaries/benefits and 40% for all other expenses including subsidies for the wing conference, Group Operations,  cadet flight scholarships and other programs.  Oh, and because of the support given by a state which appreciates all that CAP does, NHQ, reduces it's support for things like radios, and vans.  Isn't that special...

Also, I happened to check out the PD page at the PAWG web site.  The schedule was pretty full with about 6 SLSs, 2 UCCs and 2 CLCs which are both held at the Wing/HQ in Ft. Indiantown Gap. (which is over 100 mi. from Philadelphia)

Seems like a wing that's doing pretty well.  JC,  do you have anything to add on this?

[DNall]

That all seems pretty reasonable. I might suggest you put one of those PD wknds at one end of the state & the other out the other way, but that's another subject. We do them twice a year in every Gp in our wg. It's not like it really costs much.

[mikeylikey]

Seems like a wing that's doing pretty well.  JC,  do you have anything to add on this?

Are you a member of PAWG?  If so you must be on the Eastern side of the state.  You are also incorrect on the budgeted amounts, and there is no "Cadet subsidy".  Cost of ENC has been 150 for the past 10 years.  I do believe the surrounding Wings vary in price with West Virginia being 75 at the lowest.  You also left out the money that goes to maintain Hawk Mountain.  Also, all the pro Dev courses cost 25 bucks.  Factor in there is no more billeting available for CAP at Fort Indiantown GAP on the weekends, then the member has to pay 70 bucks (the cheapest hotel in the area) to stay for a weekend course.  Since CLC is prohibited by the Wing King and moronic PRO DEV Officer to be held anywhere but the Wing HQ, turnout will suck this year.  I was really hoping to see SLS and CLC go computer based, doubt that will ever happen

Please, get a a copy of the Budget from Wing HQ this Monday.  You will be surprised.

BTW.....the school program is failing under Col AL Applebaum if you didn't know it.  They are going to close another school unit this summer.  (Inside tip from school admins)

[mynetdude]

We pay a lot in PAWG and we are one of the Wings that get lots of $$ from the state.  I figure we have to pay the Wing's Executive Directors salary of $94,000 and the five other paid Wing employees.  We also have one of the highest membership costs for attendance at Encampment and Senior Member Professional Development courses.  I always thought the Wing should be run like a business, and they took that concept and decided to run it like a for profit business, and not a non-profit.  They really stick it to the members with the dues and other costs. 

With Gasoline possibly going to around $5.00 before summer is over, many people may start to rethink their service in CAP.  I can't afford to pay over $300.00 this summer in GAS to attend the Wings one and only CLC.  If you live in PAWG, and you live near Philadelphia your CAP costs are minimal, but if you live anywhere else, you can expect to dump $$ (a lot of $$) on getting to the Philadelphia area and staying overnight there. 

I honestly can't wait to get out of PAWG.  The leadership and Costs are too crazy.  I was really hoping for New York (West Point), but after Afghanistan it looks like maybe Maryland or Virginia.

PAWG dues are $10/year.  That's among the lowest of all the wings.  The dues go directly back to the squadrons for their use.  Wing/HQ does not use any of those funds.

PAWG cadets are given, I think, a $25 "subsidy" for all wing summer activities (it could be more now).  The cost of summer encampment in 2007 was about $125 for the week.  I think that is in line with what other wings are charging.

Of the $500k the wing gets from the state, $75k is expressly for the school program.  Of the remainder, about 25% is used for state missions/training, about 35% for salaries/benefits and 40% for all other expenses including subsidies for the wing conference, Group Operations,  cadet flight scholarships and other programs.  Oh, and because of the support given by a state which appreciates all that CAP does, NHQ, reduces it's support for things like radios, and vans.  Isn't that special...

Also, I happened to check out the PD page at the PAWG web site.  The schedule was pretty full with about 6 SLSs, 2 UCCs and 2 CLCs which are both held at the Wing/HQ in Ft. Indiantown Gap. (which is over 100 mi. from Philadelphia)

Seems like a wing that's doing pretty well.  JC,  do you have anything to add on this?

If you think $125 for PAWG encampment is expensive... you might want to think again... ORWG charges $160 per attendee (cadets and seniors). Now... that is expensive, WAWG (AFAIK from what I heard, may be inaccurate the cost of going to encampment there is $80).

[mynetdude]

Ok I understand the various differences is because of region/wing... why doesn't it say so? Notice that the dues for region itself is different than say ORWG itself.

From the chart, it looks as if NHQ is collecting the fees at various levels based on funding that other wings already have or the population of the wing.   If it really is based on the fact region/wing want a % of the dues... then shouldn't it be stated otherwise? (No I'm not asking if they should be required to state that, I am saying... shouldn't it at least SAY that so not to confuse NHQ's fees vs Wing fees inclusion?).

IMHO why not have NHQ charge the same dues across the board and equalize the % that goes to each wing? So rather than one wing only having dues of $60 and another at $76 just charge EVERYBODY $80 and then disburse the difference to the region/wings and problem solved.

[mikeylikey]

^ I totally agree that Wings should get an even share.  That would = the more members in a Wing the more money the Wing can collect.  That would be a recruiting incentive for the Wing right??

Then again, is it even right for the Wing to collect money from a person who only has to pay membership dues to the NHQ (I think it is in the constitution or bylaws about membership dues each year??)?

If you want to get real technical, since the CAP Corporation "has one set of books"
and with the Wing Banker Program all money really belongs to the Corporation, we are paying the Corporation twice for the privilege of volunteering. Isn't that like "double tapping". 

If anything we need to find ways to decrease dues, not increase them?  If anyone disagrees with that, then feel free to pay for my renewal in 6 months!

[mynetdude]

^ I totally agree that Wings should get an even share.  That would = the more members in a Wing the more money the Wing can collect.  That would be a recruiting incentive for the Wing right??

Then again, is it even right for the Wing to collect money from a person who only has to pay membership dues to the NHQ (I think it is in the constitution or bylaws about membership dues each year??)?

If you want to get real technical, since the CAP Corporation "has one set of books"
and with the Wing Banker Program all money really belongs to the Corporation, we are paying the Corporation twice for the privilege of volunteering. Isn't that like "double tapping". 

If anything we need to find ways to decrease dues, not increase them?  If anyone disagrees with that, then feel free to pay for my renewal in 6 months!

Well I don't entirely disagree with you or agree so hence the saying agree to disagree.

That being said, I'm not all exactly for reducing dues nor increasing them, I am all for evening them out so say your NHQ dues are $50 for every SM across the board, then another $20 is added making it $70 total, then that $20 per SM goes to wing/region whatever... rather than this silly fluctuating $50 here, $60 there $72 there and $76 here. 

When I saw the list, I was shocked... I had no idea... actually quite a few members were also surprised in my squadron and none of them have a clue why it is that way.  I mean... you know... I only live 2 1/2 hours from the nearest CAWG squadron, I can just sign up there and pay cheaper dues and participate in ORWG the only stupidity to that is any training I want approved I'd have to go to CAWG or if I want to attend an activity I have to submit my CAPF 17 to the commander of a CAWG squadron I've joined (If I did that), obviously the stupidity would be... I'd be in ORWG still... they'd kick me out.

I'm not saying I"d do that, but you see my point? I'm all for a revision of dues... now if I could learn how correspondence is to be sent up the chain of command I'd do it.

[DNall]

Just transfer to CAWG right before you renew, then transfer back. 

Seriously, this isn't anything to do with NHQ. They charge one annual rate across the board. Regions & Wings can set their own dues rate, which is billed to you with your national dues. What they charge is based on their financial need, which (as discussed) can vary substantially form one Wg to another.

As far as reducing the allocation to Wgs that get state funding, well that has two sides to it. You're right that it really isn't fair. That money is coming from the state to increase their Wg's capabilities above & beyond the federal allocation. When we reduce that fed funding then what we're really effectively doing is asking that state to help subsidize all the other states, and that's not right. On the other hand, the goal is to stretch the federal funds as far as possible to meet standards in every wing. If you can get by because of your state's contribution, and another state is really struggling, it makes some sense to divert some of that federal funding to them. You're getting screwed on that, but it's for the greater good. I'm just not so sure I like that being a long term policy.

[mynetdude]

Just transfer to CAWG right before you renew, then transfer back. 

Seriously, this isn't anything to do with NHQ. They charge one annual rate across the board. Regions & Wings can set their own dues rate, which is billed to you with your national dues. What they charge is based on their financial need, which (as discussed) can vary substantially form one Wg to another.

As far as reducing the allocation to Wgs that get state funding, well that has two sides to it. You're right that it really isn't fair. That money is coming from the state to increase their Wg's capabilities above & beyond the federal allocation. When we reduce that fed funding then what we're really effectively doing is asking that state to help subsidize all the other states, and that's not right. On the other hand, the goal is to stretch the federal funds as far as possible to meet standards in every wing. If you can get by because of your state's contribution, and another state is really struggling, it makes some sense to divert some of that federal funding to them. You're getting screwed on that, but it's for the greater good. I'm just not so sure I like that being a long term policy.

Well transferring in/out isn't a bad idea lolz... though a commander CAN deny you transfer though.  And if you do it enough, I'm sure NHQ would frown upon this, honestly I wouldn't do it though... If it means supporting my wing, I'm all for it which is fine I don't have a problem with it.

But why not make the whole thing one dues across the board? Yes I know your main NHQ dues are the same but why not just collect an extra $20 per SM/Cadet regardless of what wing and issue THAT $20 per SM/Cadet to the wing... that way every wing gets $20 per person/member regardless of state funding or not.

Yeah I see some disadvantages to the way it is done now and the idea ^ nothing is perfect.  But I'm surprised nobody has brought up the point that our wing gets money from dues and we're low in finances now I wonder... thats my thoughts thats all.

[DNall]

But why not make the whole thing one dues across the board? Yes I know your main NHQ dues are the same but why not just collect an extra $20 per SM/Cadet regardless of what wing and issue THAT $20 per SM/Cadet to the wing... that way every wing gets $20 per person/member regardless of state funding or not.

Cause of this:

I think there are too many variables to set a specific $  or % for each wing.  Some wings don't need any member dues and get along just fine.  Some wings receive funding from their state, other's don't.  Some wings have higher cost of living and cost of goods to contend with.  Some wings have rent free Wing HQ facilities, others pay leases or mortgages and utilities.  Some wings can spread costs across many members, other smaller wings may only have a few hundred members from which to collect dues.

There's little confusion the way it is now.   When I log in to e-services to renew or receive my renewal mailing, the appropriate rate is already indicated.  I don't need to consult any chart or graph. 

This way, wings that need more can ask for more.  Wings that need less or none at all can save their members those few extra bucks.  Why standardize something that doesn't need it?

They could standardize an amount nationally. In order to do so, they'd have to standardize to the highest amount on the list cause that wing & reg still needs that much money. Other wings where they don't have those kinds of expenses would just be getting rich off their members charging money they don't need to charge.

[Cecil DP]

^ I totally agree that Wings should get an even share.  That would = the more members in a Wing the more money the Wing can collect.  That would be a recruiting incentive for the Wing right??

Then again, is it even right for the Wing to collect money from a person who only has to pay membership dues to the NHQ (I think it is in the constitution or bylaws about membership dues each year??)?

If you want to get real technical, since the CAP Corporation "has one set of books"
and with the Wing Banker Program all money really belongs to the Corporation, we are paying the Corporation twice for the privilege of volunteering. Isn't that like "double tapping". 

If anything we need to find ways to decrease dues, not increase them?  If anyone disagrees with that, then feel free to pay for my renewal in 6 months!

Actually, it seems like the Wings with the least members charge the lowest fees. For years NHWG was $23/year. They weren't charging any wing dues and just charging for National and Region.  On the other hand Texas, Florida, and Califonia are all extemely high. I think CAP should be collecting fees for all those errent ELT,s. Leave a note or send a letter asking for a donation to the Wing or Squadron  to defer expenses,  with a reminder that the FCC charges in the multiple thousands to do the same job.

[SarDragon]

I mean... you know... I only live 2 1/2 hours from the nearest CAWG squadron, I can just sign up there and pay cheaper dues...

Ummm...  I just looked at the document you posted, and it shows the CAWG dues as $78, and the ORWG dues as $71. That doesn't jive with the quote above.

Also, if you look at that list, you'll see that the NHQ dues are $35, Region dues are the amount listed for the region, minus $35, and the wing dues are the stated amounts minus the region dues. IIRC, (and I'm not going to do all the math tonight) there are a couple of discrepancies with that method, but it mostly works.

F'rinstance - CAWG total = $78, PCR total = $52, so it breaks down like this:

NHQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26. As one of the largest wings in the country, spread over the third largest state, and one of the most expensive areas of the country, I have no problem with giving them $26 every year to operate.

[mynetdude]

^ I totally agree that Wings should get an even share.  That would = the more members in a Wing the more money the Wing can collect.  That would be a recruiting incentive for the Wing right??

Then again, is it even right for the Wing to collect money from a person who only has to pay membership dues to the NHQ (I think it is in the constitution or bylaws about membership dues each year??)?

If you want to get real technical, since the CAP Corporation "has one set of books"
and with the Wing Banker Program all money really belongs to the Corporation, we are paying the Corporation twice for the privilege of volunteering. Isn't that like "double tapping". 

If anything we need to find ways to decrease dues, not increase them?  If anyone disagrees with that, then feel free to pay for my renewal in 6 months!

Actually, it seems like the Wings with the least members charge the lowest fees. For years NHWG was $23/year. They weren't charging any wing dues and just charging for National and Region.  On the other hand Texas, Florida, and Califonia are all extemely high. I think CAP should be collecting fees for all those errent ELT,s. Leave a note or send a letter asking for a donation to the Wing or Squadron  to defer expenses,  with a reminder that the FCC charges in the multiple thousands to do the same job.

the air force pays for that, I don't know where they get the money for that.  It doesn't cost CAP anything to track ELTs... its the members who end up eating some of the costs such as lodging and meals.

[RiverAux]

None of these dues are really out of line and as mentioned before, the needs of every state vary significantly. 

The only argument for standardizing dues that would make sense to me is to ease somewhat the accounting burden at NHQ, but as I'm betting most of it is computerized anyway, probably isn't that big a deal. 

[mynetdude]

I mean... you know... I only live 2 1/2 hours from the nearest CAWG squadron, I can just sign up there and pay cheaper dues...

Ummm...  I just looked at the document you posted, and it shows the CAWG dues as $78, and the ORWG dues as $71. That doesn't jive with the quote above.

Also, if you look at that list, you'll see that the NHQ dues are $35, Region dues are the amount listed for the region, minus $35, and the wing dues are the stated amounts minus the region dues. IIRC, (and I'm not going to do all the math tonight) there are a couple of discrepancies with that method, but it mostly works.

F'rinstance - CAWG total = $78, PCR total = $52, so it breaks down like this:

NHQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26. As one of the largest wings in the country, spread over the third largest state, and one of the most expensive areas of the country, I have no problem with giving them $26 every year to operate.

My bad, you are right... I should have left out the "CAWG" part.. either way it wouldn't have jived, if it was cheaper at a nearby wing you could in theory transfer in/out.  Again I wouldn't do that if I wanted to fully support my wing which is ok by me.

I just looked at the list, I don't see the difference, yes I see the region dues listed, and it doesn't seem to make any connection very well.

Region dues are for the senior members who are on the region staff, and I quote "Dues listed below are National dues, Any local dues would be paid to the local unit"

If you can point me to another chart that explains part of the dues indeed goes to region/wing that would very much explain the list of variable wing dues. 

BTW this isn't a complaint or rant, I was asking if anyone else KNEW that various wings paid different dues?

There is only a question then...  A) you see NHQ dues are $35? Thats the National Patron dues, you don't pay the patron dues unless you plan on "parking" your grade/rank then at that point you don't pay any wing/region dues if thats the case because you are not a member of any squadron.

B) the region dues as I said are for members of that echelon to pay, has nothing to do with what we pay at the wing level so I would assume $71 is what we pay to NHQ according to "Dues below are NHQ" according to the posted PDF image I attached.

Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then standardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

[arajca]

snippage
Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

Listing a single amount removes the impression that one can only pay for the portion they want, i.e. I'll pay National and Wing, but not Region.

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then standardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

The only fair way for that to work is if each wing receives a percent of the take based ONLY on the number of members it has. Otherwise you'll have folks complaining about funding some wing that they'll never see or work with.

[mynetdude]

snippage
Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

Listing a single amount removes the impression that one can only pay for the portion they want, i.e. I'll pay National and Wing, but not Region.

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then stand

ardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

The only fair way for that to work is if each wing receives a percent of the take based ONLY on the number of members it has. Otherwise you'll have folks complaining about funding some wing that they'll never see or work with.

I don't think you would have much of a choice/say in listing the single amounts as to whom you'd want to pay anyhow. NHQ collects it, not you.  So I suppose if you were in the region rather than wing you would not have to pay the extra $20 whatever it is for ORWG or CAWG if that was your WG.

[ßτε]

If you can point me to another chart that explains part of the dues indeed goes to region/wing that would very much explain the list of variable wing dues. 

It is not part of a chart, but it does specify in CAPR 39-2 CIVIL AIR PATROL MEMBERSHIP that National HQ collects Wing and Region dues.

The chart you refer to used to be an appendix to CAPR 39-2, but the most recent versions are separate documents.

[Cecil DP]

Actually, it seems like the Wings with the least members charge the lowest fees. For years NHWG was $23/year. They weren't charging any wing dues and just charging for National and Region.  On the other hand Texas, Florida, and Califonia are all extemely high. I think CAP should be collecting fees for all those errent ELT,s. Leave a note or send a letter asking for a donation to the Wing or Squadron  to defer expenses,  with a reminder that the FCC charges in the multiple thousands to do the same job.

the air force pays for that, I don't know where they get the money for that.  It doesn't cost CAP anything to track ELTs... its the members who end up eating some of the costs such as lodging and meals.[/quote]

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

Tags - MIKE

[DNall]

If anything we need to find ways to decrease dues, not increase them?  If anyone disagrees with that, then feel free to pay for my renewal in 6 months!

I understand your frustration. I don't like paying annual dues, but my point was actually that the difference between a $70 annual fee & $100 is pretty marginal in the scheme of everything we pay for. If they could push that number upward slightly, and in doing so fund a budget to units, offer more & cheaper trng (encampment, PD, etc), and subsidize some other expenses members normally go out of pocket for, then I'd really prefer that. What that does is share the load around on everyone pretty equally rather than raping the people who are really committed & letting the others sneak in as free-riders.

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

We're not going to be asking for donations from people when we turn off their ELTs. That's a conflict of interest bordering on criminal. You aren't going to tell someone that repeat activations will be referred to FCC for a 10k fine, and then ask them for money - which leads to the assumption of, "or I'm calling the FCC." And you aren't going to leave people with the impression you're out here for their donation, as in you aren't going to come find them if they don't pay the tax. No, that's all criminal & inappropriate. There's plenty of folks & ways you can ask for donations that aren't shady.

[SarDragon]

I mean... you know... I only live 2 1/2 hours from the nearest CAWG squadron, I can just sign up there and pay cheaper dues...

Ummm...  I just looked at the document you posted, and it shows the CAWG dues as $78, and the ORWG dues as $71. That doesn't jive with the quote above.

Also, if you look at that list, you'll see that the NHQ dues are $35, Region dues are the amount listed for the region, minus $35, and the wing dues are the stated amounts minus the region dues. IIRC, (and I'm not going to do all the math tonight) there are a couple of discrepancies with that method, but it mostly works.

F'rinstance - CAWG total = $78, PCR total = $52, so it breaks down like this:

NHQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26. As one of the largest wings in the country, spread over the third largest state, and one of the most expensive areas of the country, I have no problem with giving them $26 every year to operate.

My bad, you are right... I should have left out the "CAWG" part.. either way it wouldn't have jived, if it was cheaper at a nearby wing you could in theory transfer in/out.  Again I wouldn't do that if I wanted to fully support my wing which is ok by me.

I just looked at the list, I don't see the difference, yes I see the region dues listed, and it doesn't seem to make any connection very well.

Well, isn't it logical that Region members pay just NHQ and Region dues? If the NHQ amount is $35, the the remainder must be the Region amount.(see more below)

Region dues are for the senior members who are on the region staff, and I quote "Dues listed below are National dues, Any local dues would be paid to the local unit"

If you can point me to another chart that explains part of the dues indeed goes to region/wing that would very much explain the list of variable wing dues. 

AFAIK, there are no other charts.

BTW this isn't a complaint or rant, I was asking if anyone else KNEW that various wings paid different dues?

There is only a question then...  A) you see NHQ dues are $35? Thats the National Patron dues, you don't pay the patron dues unless you plan on "parking" your grade/rank then at that point you don't pay any wing/region dues if thats the case because you are not a member of any squadron.

Patrons membership pays at the basic NHQ rate, as do members of Overseas units, one of which I belonged to for quite some time. When I came back to the US from Japan, I didn't affiliate with a new unit for ten years, and paid just the NHQ rate, at that time $30. The patron rate was the same.

B) the region dues as I said are for members of that echelon to pay, has nothing to do with what we pay at the wing level so I would assume $71 is what we pay to NHQ according to "Dues below are NHQ" according to the posted PDF image I attached.

Then you said this: HQ gets $35, PCR gets $52 - $35 = $17, and CAWG gets $78 - $52 = $26.  This makes no sense, if the chart says PCR gets $52 then they get $52 not $17 otherwise it would say that... thats silly, why not just list the dues as they actually are? make it show that you only pay $17 to PCR and CAWG only gets $26? Rather than showing a bloated $78 for CAWG?

It is implicit in the dues structure that the amount a member pays is apportioned among NHQ, Region, and Wing. I was breaking down the amount paid into the apportioned amounts. If a Region's dues are e.g. $52, then NHQ gets its cut before the remainder goes to the Region. This ain't rocket surgery.

I agree they are not out of line, my whole question was if anyone knew and then standardizing dues would be better IMHO, however that wouldn't solve issues for wings that need more money than others.

This structure has been in place s long as I've been in CAP, and I don't ever recall it being an issue or a problem.

[FW]

This structure has been in place s long as I've been in CAP, and I don't ever recall it being an issue or a problem.

SARDRAGON is quite right. However, I would like to attempt to clear this dues stuff up by adding my $.02.  

Each individual wing sets its own dues.  NHQ is only the collection agent.  All wing dues money goes back to the wing.  It is their money for wing expenses.

Same for region dues.  Region sets dues structure and region dues go to the region for region expenses (AFAIK).  Each region also gets $10k additional for operations and travel expenses from National which comes from the corporate budget (a portion of the $35 we pay for national dues; $25 for cadets).  This is done because regions don't have a political entity to go for grants or appropriations.

It is the NB which sets the "base" National Dues amount.  National dues pay for everything the Air Force will not permit us to use from our annual grant from congress.  Programs like the "School Enrichment Program",  "Fly a Teacher" program,  NB/NEC meetings, Region Appropriations, Scholarships, NCSAs, etc.

I would not want to tamper too much with the current system.  Giving every wing the same amount would hurt poorer wings or cause an increase in everyone's dues for, I think, obvious reasons.  

[Cecil DP]

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

We're not going to be asking for donations from people when we turn off their ELTs. That's a conflict of interest bordering on criminal. You aren't going to tell someone that repeat activations will be referred to FCC for a 10k fine, and then ask them for money - which leads to the assumption of, "or I'm calling the FCC." And you aren't going to leave people with the impression you're out here for their donation, as in you aren't going to come find them if they don't pay the tax. No, that's all criminal & inappropriate. There's plenty of folks & ways you can ask for donations that aren't shady.

I didn't say call the FCC on them. But what is criminal in asking for a donation to offset the cost of going after a non emergency ELT? There is a law against  allowing "spurious emissions" which is what we are stopping. I am tired of going out at 3 in the morning because some idiot threw his elt into the back of his trunk so it can roll around enough to go off or he made a hard landing and didn't check before shutting down the aircraft. Most of our searches are groundless and have no reason to be except for carelessness on the behalf of the owner of the aircraft or boat. I am tired of being told that while the AF or Coast Guard people who may be involved are fed and housed on a mission. They will pay for the gas and oil on the CAP Aircraft, but we can't feed the searchers or put them up in a motel overnight.  especially when you may have to take a day off from work-salary which is lost unless you use personal or sick days. Yeah let's take pity on the imbeciles who shrug it off when we knock on their door to ask them to shut the machine down.

Tag spacing - MIKE

[mynetdude]

My point is that we are providing a service which which can provide funding to the Wings and Squadrons. When we alert someone that their ELT/EPIRB is going off for the 2nd or 3rd time. They should be aware that the FCC provides the same service @ $1000 for the first incident with a scale that goes up to $10,000 or more. Granted the Air Force pays for the gas, but at 3 a.m. and 20 degrees on a rainy December night. I want to see some recompense to the unit. Otherwise all we've done is wasted our time on a job that is mandated to the Air Force which would cost them more in 1 night than a months worth of CAP ELT searches. 

We're not going to be asking for donations from people when we turn off their ELTs. That's a conflict of

interest bordering on criminal. You aren't going to tell someone that repeat activations will be referred to FCC for a 10k fine, and then ask them for money - which leads to the assumption of, "or I'm calling the FCC." And you aren't going to leave people with the impression you're out here for their donation, as in you aren't going to come find them if they don't pay the tax. No, that's all criminal & inappropriate. There's plenty of folks & ways you can ask for donations that aren't shady.

I didn't say call the FCC on them. But what is criminal in asking for a donation to offset the cost of going after a non emergency ELT? There is a law against  allowing "spurious emissions" which is what we are stopping. I am tired of going out at 3 in the morning because some idiot threw his elt into the back of his trunk so it can roll around enough to go off or he made a hard landing and didn't check before shutting down the aircraft. Most of our searches are groundless and have no reason to be except for carelessness on the behalf of the owner of the aircraft or boat. I am tired of being told that while the AF or Coast Guard people who may be involved are fed and housed on a mission. They will pay for the gas and oil on the CAP Aircraft, but we can't feed the searchers or put them up in a motel overnight.  especially when you may have to take a day off from work-salary which is lost unless you use personal or sick days. Yeah let's take pity on the imbeciles who shrug it off when we knock on their door to ask them to shut the machine down.

Tag spacing - MIKE

I disagree, we shouldn't be asking for donations to offset the costs of tracking ELTs, they are ALREADY PAID for so asking donation for something that is already paid for is like "double tapping" I would think the concept is illegal.

Now if some poor bloke who is embarrassed to see folks in CAP uniform standing in front of him because they found HIS ELT and wants to donate to the cause, fine but don't ASK for it.

[sjtrupp]

When I joined as  a cadet, back in 1987, I had to send in a check to National with the application, and another check to Wing, with a copy of the application. I knew then, as a cadet, that the dues were due to both the Wing and National.  I was told that when I renewed, National would collect both sets of dues.

I remember when I was on a Wing staff and the Commander asked the staff if we should increase the Wing dues.  When I asked "Why?", the response was because we haven't increased the amount in a number of years.  I wasn't the only person not happy with that response, and the issue died. 

Now, I have a position at region.  The analysis of separating the dues, portion to National, Region and Wing is almost correct.  National gets the $35 and the Wings get the difference between the Region and Wing amount, but the Region's money is handled differently.  We just don't get the difference.  Each region is given a set amount for the Region, and then there is at least one other coffer for the Region Commander's travel (NEC, NB meetings and such).  I don't know where the rest of the "Region" goes though.  I've asked, but there are more important things going on and didn't see the need to push for a more complete answer.

Oh, and don't forget that some squadrons require "Unit" dues as well.  I was the Finance Officer when my Squadron Commander required that.  It was a HUGE pain for me, but the membership complained more about than I did.  After 9 months, I gave a briefing at a Squadron Commander's Call, showing the members what our money was spent on and how the finances worked.  Someone complained during the briefing and I simply said that if we could ensure participation for fundraisers and collect the money we needed that way, the dues would go away.  Everyone agreed that the occasional fundraiser was the way to go.

[Steve Kuddes]

Wings charge an amount of dues which they consider necessary for their operations like rent, phone etc.  This varies on whether they get state funding or large donations.  At North Central Region, we help fund the cost of encampments and other Cadet activities to make it financially easier to attend those activities.  We also have to pay travel costs for Region and Wing personnel serving on Wing Commander Selection Boards, Commanders Calls etc.

Wing Commanders review annually the amount of dues they collect and can make adjustments as needed.  It would be difficult to "charge" the same dues for each Wing due to membership numbers plus the physical size of the state affects travel expenses.  Good recruiting and retention practices can help eliminate or ease dues increases.

Steve Kuddes, Colonel, CAP
NCR/CC