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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Announcements  |  Topic: Please Don't Nuke Your Posts
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Author Topic: Please Don't Nuke Your Posts  (Read 19690 times)
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,153
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2010, 07:20:53 PM »

Just something to think about.

We've thought about it.   The armchair legal advice isn't exactly correct nor compelling.

If you submit a letter to the editor to a web site or newspaper, especially knowing that your letter has the potential to be published and distributed, you don't get the right to later tell the newspaper that they have to take your letter down from their web site or remove it from their archives.  Doesn't work like that.

Mods.....I think you need a disclaimer stating "anything posted here becomes the property of the forum owner"

Absolutely not.  We do not want to own (and potentially be liable for) the posts that all of you make. 

I think we've had enough of the armchair lawyering for the day.  While I'm sure we all appreciate the legal advice, if we (the site) feel the need to review of our site agreement or policies, we'll ask our lawyer (he'd be the one with a JD and bar membership).
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
GroundPounder73
Recruit

Posts: 26

« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2010, 07:32:28 AM »

I know Im the new guy here and just getting involved in CAP, but there is something concerning deleting posts that I havent seen anyone mention. If I post something, its is mine. That is it is my intellectual property. Intellectual property law that has evolved since the thousands of boards have cropped up show precedent that the post BELONGs to the poster and not the forum.

Nope.
If it's not mine, then whose is it. Mods have already said they don't want to own what I post (or anyone else for that matter). So if it isn't mine, and it certainly isn't the forums, to whom does it belong. If you did some internet research on the matter you would find that the bulk of precedent concerning intellectual property demonstrates that information of original authorship posted on an internet forum belongs solely to the person who wrote it, not to the forum owners, mods or operator. I see someone has offered to consult with CAP legal counsel which I think is a wise idea, as it would clear this up. I'm not trying to be a fly in the ointment, I'm simply saying that he who wrote it owns it and has the write to remove it. I see someone has offered to consult CAP legal counsel which I think would clear this up.

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Pumbaa
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 730

« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2010, 08:04:56 AM »

They speekum with forkum tounge...

They want the best of both worlds and yet, won't take ownership. I've been at this game a long time, back in the old BBS days, long before there was an internet.

I can delete anything of mine I wish to delete.  You need to put it in your TOS, but legally there is nothing you can do.

That being said... the 'no delete' request is more for continuity and manners.

The only way for CAPTalk to prevent it is to change the board settings to lock editing after "X" amount of time. Like 5 minutes or after the next person posts. 

BTW: When you submit to a newspaper they specifically say they can do what they want.  They also say they take ownership.  CAPTalk is not claiming that.

I am doubtful CAP legal eagles will touch this with a 10 foot pole.  CAPTalk is NOT an official CAP venue. CAPTalk does NOT represent CAP in any way shape or form.  They won't waste their time answering, other than to say Sorry Charlie SOL.

Not sure why people think this board is an offical CAP venue.

Doth think too highly of yourself...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 08:31:54 AM by Pumbaa » Logged
Pumbaa
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 730

« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2010, 08:19:09 AM »

If I choose to nuke my posts here I can.  If you put them back you are in violation of my property rights as you specifically state no claim to it. 

I understand your request is really a gentlemans agreement.  Just remember if you do restore posts that were deleted by the original owner you are opening up a big can of worms.

You can't have it both ways... 

Again specify that it is a gentlemans agreement...  now if you want to get down and dirty on the subject, just take a look at how a large entity handles it.

Here's an example from the TOS of a Gannett News site

Our Right to Use Materials You Submit or Post.  When you submit or post any material via the Site, you grant us, and anyone authorized by us, a royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, unrestricted, worldwide license to use, copy, modify, transmit, sell, exploit, create derivative works from, distribute, and/or publicly perform or display such material, in whole or in part, in any manner or medium (whether now known or hereafter developed), for any purpose that we choose. The foregoing grant includes the right to exploit any proprietary rights in such posting or submission, including, but not limited to, rights under copyright, trademark or patent laws that exist in any relevant jurisdiction. Also, in connection with the exercise of these rights, you grant us, and anyone authorized by us, the right to identify you as the author of any of your postings or submissions by name, email address or screen name, as we deem appropriate. You understand that the technical processing and transmission of the Site, including content submitted by you, may involve transmissions over various networks, and may involve changes to the content to conform and adapt it to technical requirements of connecting networks or devices. You will not receive any compensation of any kind for the use of any materials submitted by you.

You can read their TOS here: http://www.pressconnects.com/section/TERMS
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 08:22:17 AM by Pumbaa » Logged
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,120

« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2010, 02:44:28 PM »

If it's not mine, then whose is it?

Good question.

IP posted by the author freely in public portions of the internet simply becomes part of the public domain, owned by no one and may be used freely by anyone.

IOW, there is no law that says you cannot nuke your own posts, but the board owners (or anyone else) can simply restore them, if they choose.  There is no legal recourse for use of IP voluntarily placed in the public domain.

(Of course, board owners can freely delete your posts, or ban anyone they choose for any reason, including violations of board rules.  They can even do the those things for no reason at all.)

You may now all resume your barracks-lawyering.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer
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MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,469
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2010, 03:20:18 PM »

(Of course, board owners can freely delete your posts, or ban anyone they choose for any reason, including violations of board rules.  They can even do the those things for no reason at all.)

QFT.
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Mike Johnston
Pumbaa
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 730

« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2010, 04:35:57 PM »

My friend who is a practicing attorney had a little to say after scanning the site and this thread. I edited it a little...

... Because I think you nailed it when you said they speak with forked tongue, and want it both ways.

This stuff really is a gentleman's agreement. These guys seem a little like [deleted]cks, "how dare you question me you armchair lawyers". Moderator burnout is common, after a few years of fun it becomes a grind. Someone needs a break...

...BTW, I just skimmed  the code of conduct. It would appear there is nothing in there prohibiting deletion.

If they want to do it right, they should put it there.
 

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Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,153
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2010, 05:23:23 PM »

My friend who is a practicing attorney had a little to say after scanning the site and this thread. I edited it a little...

That's nice.  I don't care what your friend, or any of the other armchair lawyers, have to say about the issue.

If anybody doesn't like the site rules, or one is worried about how we treat what one views to be his or her intellectual property, one is very welcome not to post anything else here.  Nobody is compelling anybody to participate here.  But when one does participate here, understand that one will do so by the pretty simple and straightforward set of rules we've set out.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Spike
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,258
Unit: Top Secret

« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2010, 05:27:22 PM »

^ I claim "1 3=7" as intellectual property.   >:D 
 
 
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,120

« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2010, 05:30:18 PM »

My friend who is a practicing attorney . . .

Oh, yeah?  Well, my Dad said . . . . ::)




Notice that your "attorney friend" seems to agree with me.

1) There is no law that says you can't delete you post. 

2) But anything you freely post here is in the public domain.  You don't "own it."  Neither do the moderators.  The moderators can simply "put back" anything you delete, if they care.

3) The moderators can delete or post anything they want to.
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Gunner C
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,748

« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2010, 06:07:35 PM »

Here's what I worry about:

In the heat of the moment you post something that could be construed as libelous (for example).  I push the post button, look at it and say "Holy Crap! That's not what I meant!"  You go back and change the post to make it more reasonable.  Then a moderator comes back and says "AHA!  Gunner's changing his posts again!"

OK, who has the problem?  The person who initially posts, realizes that he said something in the heat of the moment and changes it immediately or the moderator who takes the original post and republishes it?

I realize this is an extreme example and I don't think that anyone here would get to that level.  But it does beg the question.  My wife is a writer and talks about copyright law a great deal.  Frankly, I can't follow all the ins and outs. 

I'm certainly not trying to "stir the pot" here and I'll certainly follow the rules of the owners.
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MIKE
Super Moderator

Posts: 5,469
Unit: LANTAREA

« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2010, 06:25:01 PM »

There is a difference between a reasonable "that's not what I meant to say" edit and malicious edit or outright post nuke to CYA.   Think before you post, don't get stuck on stupid... and there will be no issue.
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Mike Johnston
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,609

« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2010, 08:52:27 PM »

If I post something, its is mine. That is it is my intellectual property.

Nope.

Quote from: Ned
You don't "own it."

Normally I remain mum on contentious issues, I really feel a need to speak up here with a few US Code cites.

Quote from: USC 17 210 a
(a)  Initial Ownership. Copyright in a work protected under this title vests initially in the author or authors of the work. The authors of a joint work are coowners of copyright in the work.
Read: If you originally created it, you own the intellectual property rights on it.


Quote from: USC 17 210 c
(c)  Contributions to Collective Works. Copyright in each separate contribution to a collective work is distinct from copyright in the collective work as a whole, and vests initially in the author of the contribution. In the absence of an express transfer of the copyright or of any rights under it, the owner of copyright in the collective work is presumed to have acquired only the privilege of reproducing and distributing the contribution as part of that particular collective work, any revision of that collective work, and any later collective work in the same series.
Read: If you consider these forums a collective work, then each post (contribution) still remains the property of the individual author, unless that copyright is transferred pursuant USC 17 204 ("These posts belong to the forum owner" doesn't cut it). Also note that the example TOS cite given above only gives a license to the website, not the copyright ownership itself. There is a distinct difference.

404 states that the collective copyright at the bottom of the page invokes copyright protection for all individual contributions to the collection, which remain the property of the original author.

408 also goes on to note that copyright registration is not necessary, for those who are going to say that we don't register each of our posts...

This isn't really the overall point of the thread, however, this particular point was bothering me a bit. Nothing personal Eclipse/Ned, just felt a strong urge to make a rebuttal.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 08:55:50 PM by Spaceman3750 » Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,061
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2010, 09:13:47 PM »

You do realize that you are arguing with someone in the legal profession, who spends lots of time in the courtroom?
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
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Posts: 27,996

« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2010, 09:19:28 PM »

This isn't really the overall point of the thread, however, this particular point was bothering me a bit. Nothing personal Eclipse/Ned, just felt a strong urge to make a rebuttal.

Since nothing you cited is applicable to a public internet forum, especially where identities are not verified and anonymous posting is allowed.

This is not "collective work", nor a "work" of any kind.  It is a discussion, and public conversations cannot be copywrittenrighted (!@#$% SARDRAGON).  Anything you post here or in other public forums, falls immediately into the public domain and you lose any control over how it can be used.

Whether CT could be enjoined in a libel situation is a separate discussion, otherwise when you choose to play in this sandbox you accept
that anything you post here is cast to the winds, including them deleting, changing, or reposting something you would prefer wasn't seen publicly.

I'll let Ned eat the rest of your lunch...
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 09:53:03 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,609

« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2010, 09:26:06 PM »

You do realize that you are arguing with someone in the legal profession, who spends lots of time in the courtroom?

Nope, wasn't aware of that. Not arguing either. Making a case. There's a difference.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,061
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2010, 09:52:32 PM »

You do realize that you are arguing with someone in the legal profession, who spends lots of time in the courtroom?

Nope, wasn't aware of that.

Well, he did sign his first post:
Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

Quote
Not arguing either. Making a case. There's a difference.

Ummm... I suggest that you "look that up in your Funk & Wagnalls".

Just to help out:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/argue
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/case , item 8
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 10:07:01 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Nathan
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 686

« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2010, 06:52:58 PM »

You do realize that you are arguing with someone in the legal profession, who spends lots of time in the courtroom?

Nope, wasn't aware of that. Not arguing either. Making a case. There's a difference.

Ned can correct me, but as far as I've been able to find with a little Google research, copyright doesn't happen within the public domain. This is intellectual property published in the public domain of the internet, and therefore, if I'm reading this correctly, copyright law does not apply to these works in the way you're trying to apply it.

I'm not the guy who works in law or has any real interest experience in reading it, but I think you need to work that part of your argument out before trying to quote law.
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Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,922

« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2010, 12:16:04 AM »

We better listen to him, he's probably Justice Scalia's son....
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,061
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2010, 04:13:26 AM »

Nah, nor grandson. I asked a long time ago, and he denied close relationship.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Announcements  |  Topic: Please Don't Nuke Your Posts
 


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