I think Region primary staff officers should be full Colonels

[flyguy06]

I was looking at the SER org chart. They are organized using the A-staff.  I believe many Region Headquarters are organized this way.

I think if they are going to have a A-staff, the people feeeling the key positions should have the rank accordingly. Region level is a lot higher level than Wing and therefore has a lot more responsibility. I think A-staff primary officers should have the raank of full Colonel and region Commanders should be BG's. I mean they have much more responsibilities than a Lt Col would have.

[mikeylikey]

But rank means NOTHING in CAP. 

[Ned]

This is a terrific idea!

And primary staff members at NHQ should be colonels (or better) as well.

The Army has special badges for service at certain levels (general staff, pentagon, white house, etc.)

We should seriously think about that as well.

Ned Lee
Primary Staff Officer, Pacific Region

[IceNine]

I have thought this for a long time, but with a slightly altered view...

I always thought that the CAP/CC should be a 3 Star
Vice 2 Star
Region CC's 2 Star
Wing CC 1 Star
Region Staff and higher Col.

BUT, All should have to complete Level 5 within 1 Year

[mikeylikey]

^ Why?  We need some reasoning with the proposal. 

I could maybe see Region Commanders being a Brigadier General, but Wing Commanders?  No way. 

So if your idea was adopted we would have more Generals than the Mexican Army.

[JayT]

I have thought this for a long time, but with a slightly altered view...

I always thought that the CAP/CC should be a 3 Star
Vice 2 Star
Region CC's 2 Star
Wing CC 1 Star
Region Staff and higher Col.

BUT, All should have to complete Level 5 within 1 Year

What will that change?

[Hawk200]

I have thought this for a long time, but with a slightly altered view... BUT, All should have to complete Level 5 within 1 Year

What will that change?

As long as it isn't waiverable, it would cut down on getting the Wing CC position just to put on Colonel, then dropping out. It would also make selection a little easier. The member would already have to have Level 4, or be very close to it. It would ensure that only the best and brightest would be selected. Theoretically, anyway.

Personnally, I think it ought to be Wing CC's as colonels, Brigadiers as Region CC, and National as a two star. National level could have a few Brigadiers (such as an Inspector General), and colonels as staff.It would line up a little more with what the AF does.

[CAPOfficer]

This topic has been raging in CAP for over two decades.  The first time an attempt was made, it was to the general officer grade structure.  It ended with all of CAP being punished by the Air Force with the maroon epaulets and the removal of all metal grade insignia.  Since then, the Air Force has written into there regulations that they control "all" of the CAP Senior Officer grade, but especially the General Officer grades.

The next time an effort was made, we were graced with the approval for a two-star billet; however, even then additional rules were placed on our one & two stars.  Additionally, there was no grandfather clause for our previous National Commander's as was the case when the first one star was approved for our National Commander.

As for having more colonel's at region and national due to their filling a position, I would disagree with that proposal.  The issue isn't that we need more colonels or generals, it's that on the average any member can advance to Lt Col within ten years.  Although a longer time-in-grade requirement wouldn't be welcome by the membership, it would alleviate some of the issues, but not all of them.

[Hawk200]

This topic has been raging in CAP for over two decades.  The first time an attempt was made, it was to the general officer grade structure.  It ended with all of CAP being punished by the Air Force with the maroon epaulets and the removal of all metal grade insignia. 

I knew of the one star that "self promoted", but I have never heard anything about region commanders being promoted to generals. Care to share the specifics?

[flyguy06]

I dont know about the Natl CC being three stars. three stars is like senior exec level in the military. two is probably enough. The Natl Vice CC and the Region Commanders can all be one stars.  The Vice CC really doesnt command anything except on rare occasions and then its about position and not rank.

I definantly think Region CC's should be one stars. Look at the responsibilty they have. The DCS's or A-staff members have a heck of alot of responsiblity. They need to be more than Lt Col's.

[FW]

As nice as it would be to have region/CS's and DCS's as Cols.; it just won't happen.

It's not going to happen because to do so would make necessary the promotion of corporate officers to Brig Gen.  Which, if logically continued ( )  would mean the promotion of the CAP/CV to Maj Gen. and the CAP/CC to Lt Gen.  This will happen when a snow ball can keep its form in ...  "Why?" you ask.  We'll, as it has been constantly drilled into my skull for the last 15 years, the AF doesn't want hundreds of CAP Generals walking around.   Remember, we CAP members stick around for a long time.  In the AF, a general is usually gone after a few years.   "They"  take the grade of "Gen" very seriously and  strongly feel it is the ultimate privilege for a CAP member to attain the grade reserved only for the commander and vice commander of CAP.

My opinion is to just leave things as is.  Of course if you want to add a pay check to the promotion...

[John Bryan]

If region commanders were made Brig Gen then we would add 8 new generals to an organization with around 60,000 members....not a very large increase....even with former region commanders sticking around we are talking less then 100 total.   I have made the point before that PHS has around 60 flag slots for an organization of 6,000. Having said this...well I would welcome region commanders becoming generals , I do not think it will impact the membership or the mission.

As for the National Commander becoming a Lt Gen....all I can say is the US Coast Guard Auxiliary National Commodore wears 3 stars. http://www.auxnaco.org/

Again.....I would support the promotions for the Region and National Commanders BUT I think  CAP has bigger fish to fry.

[Eclipse]

Make the Region & Wing stars temporary, only while holding the office - that way there is a fixed number.  The permanent grade of Col. would be bestowed upon completion of their duties.

As to HEADCAP being a 3-star, how much more "executive" can you get than National commander? I don't see an issue with that.  I would also suggest that the 3 stars stay at the office, reverting to 1 after completion of duties.  That way there is only 1 triple star at anytime.

[flyguy06]

As nice as it would be to have region/CS's and DCS's as Cols.; it just won't happen.

It's not going to happen because to do so would make necessary the promotion of corporate officers to Brig Gen.  Which, if logically continued ( )  would mean the promotion of the CAP/CV to Maj Gen. and the CAP/CC to Lt Gen.  This will happen when a snow ball can keep its form in ...  "Why?" you ask.  We'll, as it has been constantly drilled into my skull for the last 15 years, the AF doesn't want hundreds of CAP Generals walking around.   Remember, we CAP members stick around for a long time.  In the AF, a general is usually gone after a few years.   "They"  take the grade of "Gen" very seriously and  strongly feel it is the ultimate privilege for a CAP member to attain the grade reserved only for the commander and vice commander of CAP.

My opinion is to just leave things as is.  Of course if you want to add a pay check to the promotion...

The natl VC doesnt have to outrank the region Commanders. It wasnt like that when I was a  younger enior member or cadet. The Natl VC was a COL just like the region Commanders. SO why not just make the "8" regionCommanders BG's and keep the VC as a BG and keep the Natl CC as a MG?

[flyguy06]

Make the Region & Wing stars temporary, only while holding the office - that way there is a fixed number.  The permanent grade of Col. would be bestowed upon completion of their duties.

As to HEADCAP being a 3-star, how much more "executive" can you get than National commander? I don't see an issue with that.  I would also suggest that the 3 stars stay at the office, reverting to 1 after completion of duties.  That way there is only 1 triple star at anytime.

I mean Executive in terms of the USAF, not CAP. Three Stars in the USAF are treated very differently than two and one star Generals. One and two star Generals are still considered field Commanders. When you get to three stars, however, youare in a totally different category.

[FW]

It's the Air Force that needs the convincing.

If we only want region/cc and above to "hold" a star, wing/ccs' stay at Col.  As a Corp. Officer, wing/ccs' would not take kindly to region staffers holding that grade too.  Corp. Officers have a "fiduciary responsibility"  other CAP members don't, which, IMHO, warrants a higher grade.  (this is the reason for this discussion, isn't it?)

When the CAP/CV was first awarded a star, it was supposed to be temporary.  If the CV was not elected to CC, the individual was supposed to revert back to Col.  That lasted less than 2 years.  

And, yes, the USCGAux's commander hold the "flag" of 3 stars, but when term is over, grade stays with the rank;  individual goes without.  Tradition hasn't changed this since day one.  Our "traditions", much like our uniforms, tend to change with the winds.

[flyguy06]

using the army as an example (cause thats what I know  ) The Divison (a two star billet)is the largest maneuver unit. He gets dirty with the troops. A Corps is the next higher echelon. Its a three star billett. He doesnt get dirty. he is wayyyy back in the safe area making policy. he may fly over in his helicoter to observe from a safe distance. But three stars dont generally go into harms way. two stars do.

[ColonelJack]

And, yes, the USCGAux's commander hold the "flag" of 3 stars, but when term is over, grade stays with the rank;  individual goes without.  Tradition hasn't changed this since day one.  Our "traditions", much like our uniforms, tend to change with the winds.

Not exactly.  As long as an Auxie wears his "Past Officer" pin, he is entitled to wear the highest grade insignia earned.  A past National Commodore thus wears his three stars forever.

A while back I made a similar proposal here:  National Commander wears lieutenant general, National Vice Commander and National Chief of Staff are major generals, Region Commanders are brigadier generals, Wing Commanders are colonels, etc.  The general grades are temporary; National CC, CV, and CS revert to brigadier general as permanent rank upon completion of their terms, while Region CCs revert to colonel (unless granted the star permanently by the NB/BOG for exemplary performance, concurred by AF).   Like John Bryan said, I based it on the CGAux's structure, even though they don't use the rank titles.  Their National Commodore is not called "Admiral," though he wears a vice admiral's insignia.

It made sense then; it makes sense now.  YMMV.

Jack

[Pylon]

I get why we only have one Maj Gen.  But why do we only have one Brig Gen and everybody else and their brother are Col's and Lt Col's?  One Maj Gen and one Brig Gen for something like 60+ Colonel's?  Seems like a big skip to me.

Region Commander's being Brig Gen's would make sense given the size of their command.  It would make sense if you look at the promotable grade for commanders at each echelon from squadron up (Capt reporting to -> Maj -> Col -> Brig Gen -> Maj Gen).

Region Chief of Staff's were recommended to have the grade of Colonel a year or two ago at the NB or NEC (I forget which), and CAP-USAF warned against "grade inflation" and the proposal was turned down.  If the Region CoS's can't get birds for all of the responsibility on their shoulders, I don't see how other staffers could get them at this time. 

If a proposal for staff officers receiving Colonel were ever put in place, I would seriously recommend minimum Level IV completion, already a Lt Col, and 1 year (or greater) staff service to be eligible.  Level V couldn't hurt, though.  Otherwise, the region staff positions could be used as a "fast-track" loophole to Colonel... just appoint your favorite new 2d Lt to a vacant region staff slot and BAM!; s/he's a Colonel.  Even with requirements, it makes me nervous and makes me think of grade inflation.

[Major Carrales]

What should the grade and rank represent?

The Company and Early Field Grades
2d Lt to Lt Col= Progress through CAP Professional Development, Aviation/Professional Achievement (plus the prior) and current/prior SQUADRON/GROUP COMMAND.

Thus, Lt Col is the highest one goes without taking a major command (by that I mean WING or Higher)  I might leave Region Staff at Lt Col because they have not yet assumed the level of command.  If they are a prior Wing King, then they are colonels for establishing a command in CAP.

I could, however, see the justification for Full Colonels at Region Staff based on my idea that the staff of one echelon should be equal to the highest at the next lower.  Thus, Squadron Commanders should ideally be 1st Lts or Captains as should Group Staff be Captains with a Major or Lt Col as the Group Commander.  Wing staff should be Lt Cols, or Majors, with their Wing Commander as a Full Colonel.

The crux comes at this next level.  Regions Commanders might fittingly by Brig Generals with Cols and Lt Cols on their staff.  The Vice Commander, would remain a Brig General, albiet sort of like the first amoung equals and the National Commander a Maj General.


Upper Field Grades & General Officers
Col to Maj General are prior and current CAP COMMANDERS/Corporate Officers.  They are in charge of Wings, Regions and the Greater CAP.

Col= Wing Commander
Brig General= Region Commander & National Vice Commander
Maj General = CAP Primer

This would justify the Major General status for the National Commander and not make Brig General the "novelty/obscure" CAP rank held by a choice few people as Vice Commander.

[ZigZag911]

OK, here's my take:

1) Nat'l CC could be a 3 star....either retire in grade at end of term, or revert to 1 star to stay active (up till the end of WW2, US military usually only held 3 or 4 stars as 'temporary' grade)

2) Nat'l CV 2 star, see #1 above.....if not elected  NCC, back to 1 star...NCV should have concurrent term w. NCC,,,,frankly, we ought to do like most large national organizations -- vice president (CV equivalent) is generally either presumed successor or, in some cases, automatic heir to top slot by constitution & bylaws of organization

3) Nat'l CS should get 1 star, keep it if at least 1 year satisfactory service in the job

4) Region CC 1 star, same conditions as NCS

5) Region CV, CS, and current DCS slots (plus director of safety and IG)
    should be O-6.

Here's the condition: no promotion to O-6 or higher for anyone who has not already completed Level 4 and served 4 years as CAP Lt Col...this, of course, would limit wing CC appointments....which is the idea! No waivers, no exceptions, period!

Completion of Level 5 within 12 months is a good idea....why is Region/Wing CC Course not granted NSC equivalency??

[John Bryan]

OK, here's my take:

1) Nat'l CC could be a 3 star....either retire in grade at end of term, or revert to 1 star to stay active (up till the end of WW2, US military usually only held 3 or 4 stars as 'temporary' grade)

2) Nat'l CV 2 star, see #1 above.....if not elected  NCC, back to 1 star...NCV should have concurrent term w. NCC,,,,frankly, we ought to do like most large national organizations -- vice president (CV equivalent) is generally either presumed successor or, in some cases, automatic heir to top slot by constitution & bylaws of organization

3) Nat'l CS should get 1 star, keep it if at least 1 year satisfactory service in the job

4) Region CC 1 star, same conditions as NCS

5) Region CV, CS, and current DCS slots (plus director of safety and IG)
    should be O-6.

Here's the condition: no promotion to O-6 or higher for anyone who has not already completed Level 4 and served 4 years as CAP Lt Col...this, of course, would limit wing CC appointments....which is the idea! No waivers, no exceptions, period!

Completion of Level 5 within 12 months is a good idea....why is Region/Wing CC Course not granted NSC equivalency??

Retire in grade could be an issue since almost all National Commanders and their wives are made life members , thus never expire or retire. Plus I think if we were to do this, we should follow the example of the other US military auxiliary.....btw...they are older then us so and as older brother / sister they should set the example 

As for the WWII thing....if you want to look at history the grade of Lt Gen before WWII was a much bigger deal then it is now. Remember we went from George Washington to U.S. Grant with no one holding that grade.

[RiverAux]

Folks, are we actually assuming that Region staff members actually DO anything in the first place that warrants a Col. rank?  Although it is changing a little bit in regards to ES, region staff members don't really do much anyway, nor should they really.  Why do they deserve to be Colonels?

[mikeylikey]

^ They don't!  Being a staff officer has nothing to do with rank or grade, nothing!

In reality some Wing Commanders don't warrant being a Colonel to begin with.

[SAR-EMT1]

Personally I think the situation at hte higher levels is good "as is"
but if I must voice an opinion here it is:

Keep Nat /CC at 2 stars
Keep Nat. /CV at 1 star
Region /CC to 1 star
Region and National Staff to Col.
(lvl V required prior to Region or National job)
Wing /CC stays Col.
(AD USAF Wing /CCs are Cols )
(reqs for Lvl 4 completed prior to Wing job)
Wing Staff: Lt Col
Group /CC: Lt Col
Group Staff: up-to Maj
(requirements for Lvl 2/3 completed prior to getting Group job)
Sq /CC:  Maj
Sq staff: up-to Capt
Flight /CC: Capt
Sq staff: Lvl 2 complete

[ZigZag911]

Granted that in the current situation rank/grade has little to do with duty assignment....but perhaps it should.

There is a very good reason that, by and large, the modern military does not take new officers, promote them to Colonel, and put them in command of a combat brigade! The reason is inexperience.

In an ideal world:

Nat CC = Lt Gen
Nat CV = Maj Gen
Nat CS = Brig Gen
All principal National staff officers (National ______ Officer) should be colonels
Region CC = Brig Gen
Region CC = Col
Region CS, DCSs, IG, SE = Col
Other region staff directors  = Lt Col
Wing CC = Col
Wing CV = Col
Wing CS = Lt Col
Wing Directors = Lt Col
Other wing staff department heads = Maj
Group CC = Lt Col
Group CD = Lt Col
Principal staff officers:
(IG, SE, DOS, DO, AE, PD, CP, LG. DC) = Maj
Other staff dept. heads = Capt
Sqdn CC = Maj
Sqdn CD = Maj
Principal staff officers = Capt
Other staff officers = 1 Lt
Flt CC = Capt
Flt CD = 1 Lt

Brig Gen should be highest permanent grade.

Inactive officers, or officers not presently filling a slot suitable to their rank, should revert to highest grade held for 5 years active service

[Cecil DP]

Personnaly I feel tht completion of Level 5 and an apropriate TIG  (10 years?) should entitle anyone to be a Col.

[mikeylikey]

Wow......like many here point out, this is not the AF.  We do not need to stack our leadership with stars and eagles.

[ZigZag911]

10 years TIG as lt col to be eligible for colonel, with a Wilson?  I could support that, but I think there should be some extra service requirement, fulfillable in various ways (e.g., group or higher staff for a certain number of years, or a similar amount of encampment staff or RSC staff service, or a certain number of years as IC....like that).

O-6 should not go to people who simply passively participate as asst officer in charge of pencil sharpeners!

[ZigZag911]

Wow......like many here point out, this is not the AF.  We do not need to stack our leadership with stars and eagles.

On the other hand, CAP careers of 30 years plus seem to be the norm, rather than the exception.....whereas it is the rare AF officer who serves that long....perhaps after 3, 4 or more decades of paying for the privilege of serving, buying one's own uniforms, taking time from family, career, and personal interests, it's not really a whole lot to ask for....I mean, you're one of the first to say that CAP rank is meaningless, Mikey, so what's the difference to you if it makes dedicated CAP officers feel fulfilled if they can pin on eagles after all those years, not because they politicked to become a corporate officer, but because they worked for years in a squadron, group or wing?!?

[EShep]

I don't agree. The DCS staff officers carry the authority and rank of the Region CC, who is a full Colonel. Any staff officers subordinate to the various DCS staff officers, carry the authority of that particular staff officer. (The same applies at Wing level) Thus forms the normal chain of command.

What happens to region staff officers who leave their positions? Do they revert back to previous grade earned?

One of the problems I've noticed in my nearly 48 year CAP career, is too much emphasis on more rank. If you think you need to be a Colonel in order to do your job, you aren't capable of doing your job. Spend more time learning to lead and motivate, and less time giving orders.

I've lost track of the number of members I've encountered who can't wait for their next promotion; or who think they are due for promotion. You're never due for promotion. You're not being paid. You become eligible for consideration for promotion, not due. That's how it's worded in the regulation.

[mikeylikey]

Wow......like many here point out, this is not the AF.  We do not need to stack our leadership with stars and eagles.

On the other hand, CAP careers of 30 years plus seem to be the norm, rather than the exception.....whereas it is the rare AF officer who serves that long....perhaps after 3, 4 or more decades of paying for the privilege of serving, buying one's own uniforms, taking time from family, career, and personal interests, it's not really a whole lot to ask for....I mean, you're one of the first to say that CAP rank is meaningless, Mikey, so what's the difference to you if it makes dedicated CAP officers feel fulfilled if they can pin on eagles after all those years, not because they politicked to become a corporate officer, but because they worked for years in a squadron, group or wing?!?

BECAUSE it is not the dedicated CAP officer who spent 30 or 40 years serving CAP leading this organization!  Reference our previous National Commander.  How many years did he have?  10??  6???  Get the point.  Your point is not valid.  If it were, our leadership would be in the age bracket of 50-70.  If they allowed the average Joe Blow member to make Colonel without having to be a Corporate Officer, I would be all for your idea.  But that currently is not how the system works.

[FW]

On the other hand, CAP careers of 30 years plus seem to be the norm, rather than the exception.....whereas it is the rare AF officer who serves that long....perhaps after 3, 4 or more decades of paying for the privilege of serving, buying one's own uniforms, taking time from family, career, and personal interests, it's not really a whole lot to ask for....I mean, you're one of the first to say that CAP rank is meaningless, Mikey, so what's the difference to you if it makes dedicated CAP officers feel fulfilled if they can pin on eagles after all those years, not because they politicked to become a corporate officer, but because they worked for years in a squadron, group or wing?!?

To tell you the truth, I personally would rather just get an honest "thank you"  from time to time.  The "bling" is just something that I'm losing interest in.  However, I never get tired of the great relationships I've forged over the years.  And, the longer I'm involved, the more important the relationships are.   No matter what level I've been involved in, it's the people I'm with that "make my days".  I've got more "stuff" than I need on both my walls and chest.  Another promotion or another ribbon or certificate just doesn't do it for me any more.

Of course, YMMV  

[Major Carrales]

To keep meaning to CAP rank beyond Lt Col, it should be exclusive and held by only those that serve in command of a WING or Region, let the staffs serve as Brevet Colonels until their service is up.  Reward them with a Lt Cololonelship for a given time of service as NATIONAL or REGION staff.

[ZigZag911]

Sparky. how on earth do you reward someone with a grade (lt col) he or she often already has?

Look, if the eagles are too controversial, how about a title (Baron or Count always sounds nice!), or "Vice Deputy Under Grand Pubah"!

In all seriousness, we'd be a heck of a lot better off if O-6 had to be earned first by dint of several years service in a responsible staff/CV/CS post....then limit selection for corporate officer slots to the pool of serving colonels with minimum two or three years time in grade!

[Major Carrales]

Sparky. how on earth do you reward someone with a grade (lt col) he or she often already has?

Look, if the eagles are too controversial, how about a title (Baron or Count always sounds nice!), or "Vice Deputy Under Grand Pubah"!

In all seriousness, we'd be a heck of a lot better off if O-6 had to be earned first by dint of several years service in a responsible staff/CV/CS post....then limit selection for corporate officer slots to the pool of serving colonels with minimum two or three years time in grade!

Ha!  I was purposely trying to see if anyone would catch that and declare it moot.  Just give the Lt Col some badge to wear to denote REGION, NATIONAL or WING staff.  They can remove it when they finish their pull in the administration.  You could even have the REGION or WING actually own and issue the stupid badges so that it would only be worn for that occasion.

[arajca]

Sparky. how on earth do you reward someone with a grade (lt col) he or she often already has?

Look, if the eagles are too controversial, how about a title (Baron or Count always sounds nice!), or "Vice Deputy Under Grand Pubah"!

In all seriousness, we'd be a heck of a lot better off if O-6 had to be earned first by dint of several years service in a responsible staff/CV/CS post....then limit selection for corporate officer slots to the pool of serving colonels with minimum two or three years time in grade!

Ha!  I was purposely trying to see if anyone would catch that and declare it moot.  Just give the Lt Col some badge to wear to denote REGION, NATIONAL or WING staff.  They can remove it when they finish their pull in the administration.  You could even have the REGION or WING actually own and issue the stupid badges so that it would only be worn for that occasion.

While you probably posted this in jest, it's not a bad idea. Much more palatable than auto-grades for wing/region/national staffers. IIRC, the military does something similar...
fixed quote order

[Dragoon]

It's funny that we're concerned about region staff officers getting commensurate rank for their positions...


....when throughout CAP we've got 1st Lts and Captains as primary wing staff.....


....and in squadrons we have 1st Lt's commanding Majors and  Lt Col's!


Rank in CAP means almost nothing, except 0-6 and above, which normally just means "I used to be a high level guy."

Given how hard it is to be a Wing CC, if folks could get their eagles on Region staff, you'd have a LOT fewer folks vying for wing command.  They'd just go to region and get promoted the easy way.


If rank is going to mean anything in CAP, it needs to be reformed top to bottom.

But first, we need to decide what rank should be in CAP

1.  Is it a symbol of responsiblity and authority (as it is in the Real Military)

2.  Is it a symbol of PREVIOUS responsibility and authority (as it is for CAP 0-6 and above)

3.  It is just a symbol of training and longevity (as it is for CAP 0-5 and below).



Personally, I vote for #1.  But even #2 would be a step in the right direction.

[John Bryan]

I think grade is a little over rated......Don't get me wrong , unlike others here I do think it has meaning. But the person not the grade makes a leader. I think I really understood that when I figued out that some above me were poor leaders and some below me were better leaders then me.  There was I time not too long ago when I assumed that the colonels and the generals must be good or great leaders.  Now I am less impressed with the stars and birds and more interested in their character.

We should not ask ourselves what grade should our leaders hold but rather what type of character should they hold. We have people with high grade that understand less about the core values and moral character then most 12 year old cadet airman. This is the true issue facing us.

[Dragoon]

This is very true in CAP because there are really no leadership performance requirements attached to grade.   Since we don't EXPECT more out of an 0-5 than we do out of an 0-2, it's not surprising that we don't always GET more out of the 0-5.

[DogCollar]

Reading this thread, I'm still not sure what "problem" the increase in rank solves?  Is it being rewarded better for performing thankless tasks?  If so, then everyone should wear stars!  I don't see a problem with the present system.

[Dragoon]

One could argue that such a system would incentivise folks to do the tough jobs at Region, especially if, like Wing CC's the grade wasn't permanent unless they successfully completed an entire tour of duty in the job.

Of course, it makes the incentive on par with being a Wing CC, which probably ain't good.  Being a Wing CC is a much bigger headache than any Region staff job, IMHO.

[John Bryan]

One could argue that such a system would incentivise folks to do the tough jobs at Region, especially if, like Wing CC's the grade wasn't permanent unless they successfully completed an entire tour of duty in the job.

Of course, it makes the incentive on par with being a Wing CC, which probably ain't good.  Being a Wing CC is a much bigger headache than any Region staff job, IMHO.

Well kind of....read the reg...the Wing Commander's Colonel grade is permanent with the approval of the Region Commander....so it does not matter how long you serve or what good or bad things you did as Wing Commander.....there is no objective standard. It is a subjective choice of the Region Commander.  We have not changed as much as we think. There are a number of former Wing Commanders who reverted because they refused to do things they felt violated the core values and because their choices upset the political agendas of their Region Commanders. Although this is another issue...one of the things CAP should do is allow the BOG to run the corperation and let Wing Commanders run their wings....the role of National Board Members has been the death of a number of good Wing Commanders....I think the National Board is a waste of time and money. I know my wing spends a lot of its funds on travel for the Wing Commander to and from twice a year.

[fireplug]

[]

Well kind of....read the reg...the Wing Commander's Colonel grade is permanent with the approval of the Region Commander....so it does not matter how long you serve or what good or bad things you did as Wing Commander.....there is no objective standard.

CAPR 35-5, par 5c . . .The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the satisfactory completion of assignment and must be recommended by the commander of the individual concerned.
Elsewhere it is stated that a Wing commander is on probation for the first year of his/her appointment.

[John Bryan]

"satisfactory completion of assignment and must be recommended by the commander of the individual concerned."

So in other words if you serve less then one year and your region commander thinks you were satisfactory then you stay a Colonel. If you serve 4 years and your region commander thinking you were less then satisfactory then you revert.

Further a region commander can rate a wing commander as satisfactory even if he/she does nothing positive or worse yet is a poor leader whose wing suffers because of the poor leadership. Further a region commander can rate as less then satisfactory a wing commander who has done a good job as wing commander. Why would a region commander do such things....well political reasons. 

No where will you find a standard for what "satisfactory completion of assignment" means.....until we have clear standards for what "satisfactory completion of assignment" mean and until we have real reform in the firing process for wing and region commanders , we will have this problem. Sorry if this seems off topic but it is not if you consider the bigger issue of who deserves the senior CAP grades.

[John Bryan]

One more thing to consider....what if....

Lets say you have wing commander A - during his term the wing is on logistics freeze and won't get off, fails an Air Force SAR Eval and looses the right to fly A and B missions. Membership drops. Units close. You would think that this is not satisfactory, yet he serves 4 years is awarded the DSM and made a Colonel and given a region level directors job.

Wing commander B - During his term the wing gets it's first satisfactory grade on a survey audit in over 10 years, gets equipment to the units, starts working on state missions, charters 16 units (11 squadrons and 5 groups),increases membership by 9% one of the largest rates in the nation and the largest in that region, works with the state to pass laws protecting senior who miss work for mission and cadets who miss school for missions, started a school program, doubled the number of the wing's IC's , and started a glider program....to name a few of the projects. This commander was fired under the probation clause which allows the region commander to fire without cause.  He reverted to Lt Col and returned to the squadron level.

Where is the standard? Where is the value of things like grade and the DSM?

[Dragoon]

If you look at how the overall system works, this makes sense.  It ain't right, but it makes sense.

Since the Region commander isn't held responsible for the performance of his region (he keeps his eagles no matter what), some of them would rather be "good guys" and make friends, rather than the "bad guy" who upholds standards.

The few who do uphold standards are normally considered jerks.  And...you always have a few who set the standards way too high, or value things like loyalty wayyy beyond performance.

In any performance oriented system, there are gonna be some hiccups.  But if the BOSS is held responsible, he's likely to hold his subordinate leaders responsible.  And overall, that would probably be good for CAP.

[Steve Kuddes]

I really beg to differ with some of the opinions that Region staff members don't do anything.  When I was the NCR commander, I inherited a very professional and active Region staff from Rex Glasgow.  I had a very competent Vice and Chief of Staff in Colonel Tom Weston and Colonel Dale Hoium.  We never had to micro manage the staff as they knew what their positions were responsible for and they did their job.

I don't agree that all staff position officer should be Colonels.  Some of the finest officers I had at Region or Nebraska Wing were not field grade officers.  You don't have to be a jerk to get things done either.  Treat people the way you want to be treated, as a person, and that goes a long way.  Tom, Dale and I did just that and we had a very active staff but more importantly it allowed us to do the job we were supposed to do as a Region HQ, to support the Wings of the NCR.

[RiverAux]

Personally, I've had experience as a wing staff officer in two different positions and feel I'm in a pretty good position to judge the level of effort of my regional counterparts and I found them fairly lacking.  That being said, I know of other wing staff officers that haven't really done their job either.  It is because of this sort of inconsistency that I am not at all in favor of assigning ranks based on any level of staff officer duty.  I can go along with it in regards to command positions, though even that should not be immediate upon promotion to a position -- they should have to demonstrate their capability before getting the bump. 

[flyguy06]

Reading this thread, I'm still not sure what "problem" the increase in rank solves?  Is it being rewarded better for performing thankless tasks?  If so, then everyone should wear stars!  I don't see a problem with the present system.

Chaplin,

There is no problem. I was merely suggesting that Region DCS's be upgraded to full Colonel because I think because the area of responsibilty they have (multipler states) they deserve that level of rank. I am a military guy and CAP is a spmewhat military organization, so if we are going to mimic the military. In the military someone at that level of responsibility would be more than just a Lt Col. So, with that being said if we promote the DCS's to full COL, then it falls to reason that we promoter Region CC's to BG. I think they should be BG's either way again because of the levelof responsibility they have. I dont think we should make the Natiopanl Vice CC a MG though. Its perfectly acceptable for Region CC's and the Natioanl Vice CC to be the same rank. We did it back in the day and the military does it as well. In my Army Brigade, The Deputy Commander is the same rank as our Battalion Commanders.

[davidsinn]

One more thing to consider....what if....

Lets say you have wing commander A - during his term the wing is on logistics freeze and won't get off, fails an Air Force SAR Eval and looses the right to fly A and B missions. Membership drops. Units close. You would think that this is not satisfactory, yet he serves 4 years is awarded the DSM and made a Colonel and given a region level directors job.

Wing commander B - During his term the wing gets it's first satisfactory grade on a survey audit in over 10 years, gets equipment to the units, starts working on state missions, charters 16 units (11 squadrons and 5 groups),increases membership by 9% one of the largest rates in the nation and the largest in that region, works with the state to pass laws protecting senior who miss work for mission and cadets who miss school for missions, started a school program, doubled the number of the wing's IC's , and started a glider program....to name a few of the projects. This commander was fired under the probation clause which allows the region commander to fire without cause.  He reverted to Lt Col and returned to the squadron level.

Where is the standard? Where is the value of things like grade and the DSM?

That sounds familiar... I agree with John Bryan. There needs to be reform and standards for these things.