FO Rank on a Flight Suit

Started by thefischNX01, September 15, 2005, 02:53:09 AM

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thefischNX01

I just finished my MS qualification, and now that I'm eligible to wear a flightsuit, what kind of rank do I put on it?  They don't sell my rank in the plastic encased bars.  Should I just leave it blank?
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

MIKE

Quote from: thefischNX01 on September 15, 2005, 02:53:09 AM
I just finished my MS qualification, and now that I'm eligible to wear a flightsuit, what kind of rank do I put on it?  They don't sell my rank in the plastic encased bars.  Should I just leave it blank?

Leave them blank... IIRC you can put your grade on the ASNP (Aircrew Style Name Patch) though.

Mike Johnston

Pylon

Unfortunately, this is a situation where CAP regs require something and CAPMart will not supply it.  In fact, it must be a case of "CAPMart refuses to supply it" because metal, plastic-encased grade insignia for flight officers has been needed as long as CAP has had metal grade insignia on flight suits (and that's been at least 8+ years, to my recollection).  You would think that'd give CAPMart enough time to find a supplier and get them made, but nooo....

Unfortunately, I guess you would go without grade insignia and just have your grade on your ASNP, as Mike suggested.   :-\
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Matt

Here's an unheard of idea:  If you are a TFO, well, when you make TFO, goto an Army BX or PX and buy the CWO5 plastic encased insignia.  It looks an AWFUL lot alike the TFO grade.

Matt
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

arajca

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 01:31:36 PM
Here's an unheard of idea:  If you are a TFO, well, when you make TFO, goto an Army BX or PX and buy the CWO5 plastic encased insignia.  It looks an AWFUL lot alike the TFO grade.

Matt
Except the CWO5 insignia is a black stripe on a chrome bar and the FO is a silver stripe on a blue bar. TFO is two silver stripes on a blue bar.

Pylon

...and on top of that, you've got to cob-job the "plastic-encasing" with some home lamination stuff or something.   ::)

The point is, if the uniform manual has required something for over a decade, CAP members ought to have somewhere to buy it from.  We shouldn't be left to our own devices to have to meet regulations.

That's like saying "Every CAP Captain must now wear this device on their flight cap....  but nobody is going to ever sell this to you, good luck meeting the regs." 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

thefischNX01

Is it possible to just take the BDU insignia and put it on?  It might not look tooo pretty but it would still meet the regs...somewhat....
Capt. Colin Fischer, CAP
Deputy Commander for Cadets
Easton Composite Sqdn
Maryland Wing
http://whats-a-flight-officer.blogspot.com/

Matt

Here's the Army Master Chief Warrant Officer, or CWO 5:

And if you take a smidge of blue you find:

If you wear the nice, comfortable, but unregulation ECWCS Parka, the Army CWO5 insignia would be the subdued version of the TFO grade, so I thought the minor change (of black to blue with a marker), to those at a glance would be unknown and, perhaps, might even be of use for the flight suit.

<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

MIKE

Quote from: thefischNX01 on September 15, 2005, 02:52:54 PM
Is it possible to just take the BDU insignia and put it on?  It might not look tooo pretty but it would still meet the regs...somewhat....

I would say that no it doesn't... At least until they authorize cloth grade... Which makes sense IMO.

Mike Johnston

arajca

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 03:03:33 PM
Here's the Army Master Chief Warrant Officer, or CWO 5:

And if you take a smidge of blue you find:

If you wear the nice, comfortable, but unregulation ECWCS Parka, the Army CWO5 insignia would be the subdued version of the TFO grade, so I thought the minor change (of black to blue with a marker), to those at a glance would be unknown and, perhaps, might even be of use for the flight suit.


1. The ECWCS parka is considered by CAP to be a "civilian" or "non-uniform" jacket. Therefore NO CAP insignia is authorized to be worn on it. This includes grade insignia and name tapes. The "but everyone does it" argument won't work. If at some future date, the Air Force allows us to officially use it, then things may change.
2. CAP cannot wear subdued insignia, except for authorized military insignia, i.e. jump wings, CFMB, etc. And we DO NOT wear subdued grade insignia.

Matt

#10
Quote from: arajca on September 15, 2005, 04:02:46 PM
1. The ECWCS parka is considered by CAP to be a "civilian" or "non-uniform" jacket. Therefore NO CAP insignia is authorized to be worn on it. This includes grade insignia and name tapes. The "but everyone does it" argument won't work. If at some future date, the Air Force allows us to officially use it, then things may change.
2. CAP cannot wear subdued insignia, except for authorized military insignia, i.e. jump wings, CFMB, etc. And we DO NOT wear subdued grade insignia.

Now, however would I see that coming....  ::)

I'm finding what you said a tad contradicted.  You've stated that the Gore Tex (ECWCS) Parka is not an authorized outer garment.  Well, before even looking in the regulations, you are correct, it is not, no argument there.  You've also stated that we cannot wear subdued insignia, with being to lazy to argue it, I won't.  However, placing both of those things together in one block gives way to someone saying: "Well wait, if it's civilian, why can I not do as I want with it?"  So, in a matter of speaking, subdued grade can be worn on the Gore Tex parka, because it is not governed by any of our regulations.

Now, there is a catch in what I have said.  I'll admit it, just so that it cannot be brought against me.  The Air Force has the Gore Tex Parka authorized, or has been minimally accepted enough that they really don't care about it, I'll admit, I haven't looked into their regulations on it.  The controversy that would arrive given you have, pardon it, one ass of an inspector, would be: "Why are you not in accordance with regulation and have your insignia marked with a 'CAP'?"  So, to overshoot this argument, one would logically place on a CAP Cut-out above or below their grade.  But because there is no prescribe of wear, one cannot tell you to remove it because it is after all a civilian outer garment.

Perhaps, because they are so worn, National HQ should have come up with some guidance on them.  Realistically, however, they probably did not because of a matter of reasons including, but not limited to: supply of them to units.  Then again, maybe they're waiting and they'll give us each one with our next paycheck.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

SarDragon

Item stocking at CAP Mart has a lot to do with demand. It costs more for a small batch of an item than a large batch. What do you think the demand for FO rank insignia is? Probably less than that for Cadet Colonels. The longest someone can wear FO stuff is three years, and often less due to promotions.

CAP MART is a really low volume operation compared with AAFES, and can't take advantages of the same breaks they get.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Slim

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 01:31:36 PM
Here's an unheard of idea:  If you are a TFO, well, when you make TFO, goto an Army BX or PX and buy the CWO5 plastic encased insignia.  It looks an AWFUL lot alike the TFO grade.

Matt


I don't think the army has full color, plastic encased rank for their zoom bags, all I've ever seen is subdued cloth.


Slim

Matt

I'm honestly not sure, but hey, it can't hurt to try, can it?  The other idea, however more of a clusterflop, would be AFROTC insignia.  For their officers they have flat lines, MAYBE, just maybe they have something for flight suits, I'm not in AFROTC so I dunno, perhaps someone out there in the neatherworld of CAPTALK may know.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Bluelakes 13

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
I’m finding what you said a tad contradicted.  You’ve stated that the Gore Tex (ECWCS) Parka is not an authorized outer garment.  Well, before even looking in the regulations, you are correct, it is not, no argument there. 

A clarification here:  The GoreTex Parka is not authorized for Senior Members.  But, since Cadets can wear civilian coats over their uniforms, they probably can wear it  It's a bit of a gray area, but this interpretation isn't off.  BUT, a Commander can view the Gore Tex parka as military clothing and forebid it for cadets also.  Now why a cadet would order such an expensive item, beats me.

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
You’ve also stated that we cannot wear subdued insignia, with being to lazy to argue it, I won’t.  However, placing both of those things together in one block gives way to someone saying: “Well wait, if it’s civilian, why can I not do as I want with it?”  So, in a matter of speaking, subdued grade can be worn on the Gore Tex parka, because it is not governed by any of our regulations.

LOL.  39-1 works both ways: it specifies what uniforms to wear and what to put on them, AND what items insignia can be put on.  In other words, you can not put CAP insignia on anything other than the uniforms specified. 

Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
I’ll admit it, just so that it cannot be brought against me.  The Air Force has the Gore Tex Parka authorized, or has been minimally accepted enough that they really don’t care about it, I’ll admit, I haven’t looked into their regulations on it. 

I hear this excuse a lot.  "Service X does it, why can't we".  Simple answer:  if 39-1 doesn't say you can, you can not.  It's irrelevant what the USAF can do.

Matt

Quote from: jkalemis on September 16, 2005, 02:55:28 PM
A clarification here:  The GoreTex Parka is not authorized for Senior Members. 

Ok, back up a bit.  I'll admit to being 1/2 wrong - 1/2, and you're 1/2 correct on being unauthorized.

The Gore Tex Parka, can indeed be warn, HOWEVER, it will not be warn with the USAF uniforms.

Table 4-7. Men's and Women's CAP Utility Uniform
Outergarments
Since the utility uniform is uniquely CAP and is not a USAF clothing item, any type cold weather outergarment may be worn including the blue flight jacket.

Table 4-8. Men's and Women's CAP Field Uniform
Outergarments
Since the field uniform is uniquely CAP and is not a USAF clothing item, any type cold weather outergarment may be worn.

So, although the manual does not authorize it, it is authorized for wear with the Utility and the field uniforms for the mere fact that it is a cold weather clothing item.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

MIKE

Quote from: jkalemis on September 16, 2005, 02:55:28 PM
Quote from: Matt on September 15, 2005, 04:11:20 PM
I'm finding what you said a tad contradicted.  You've stated that the Gore Tex (ECWCS) Parka is not an authorized outer garment.  Well, before even looking in the regulations, you are correct, it is not, no argument there. 

A clarification here:  The GoreTex Parka is not authorized for Senior Members.  But, since Cadets can wear civilian coats over their uniforms, they probably can wear it  It's a bit of a gray area, but this interpretation isn't off.  BUT, a Commander can view the Gore Tex parka as military clothing and forebid it for cadets also.  Now why a cadet would order such an expensive item, beats me.

Show me where in CAPM 39-1 it says that cadets or any member for that matter may wear "civilian outerwear" with any Air Force style uniform.
Mike Johnston

Matt

#17
Quote from: CAPM 39-1 para. 1-5
Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.

a. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.  Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.


I'm merely going to set this up for an organized argument.  Please note above for cadets, and it is true that cadets are not required to have more than the minimum uniform, this included outer garments.  Now, I'm not going to tell someone that they cannot wear a jacket when it's cold out because it's not in the regs, are you willing to, sir?

If you're going to fight with regs, I'm simply going to state, remember the Safety Pledge.  Telling someone that they may not wear a coat WILL compromise a safety environment.

Furthermore, that would, in most cases also authorize civilian outer garments for SM's.  When SAFETY is concern.  I've noted that you're from MA, you should know about crappy winter conditions, around here, they're worse.  I'm not going to lie when I say that I wear a ECWCS parka.  I wear it because it's warmer than the M-65, windproof and highly water resistant.

I've seen cases like this arise before about wearing civilian outer garments, and they were quickly put to rest when safety came into play.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Bluelakes 13

Quote from: MIKE on September 16, 2005, 03:43:21 PM
Show me where in CAPM 39-1 it says that cadets or any member for that matter may wear "civilian outerwear" with any Air Force style uniform.

Hmmm, I checked and I did not find any language saying this.  Maybe it's a Wing addendum. 

It's certainly a safety exception.  Coats are not provided to cadets with their uniforms.   Expecting them to buy the coats is unrealistic.  So for about half the year I would not want to see a cadet walking around without a coat.  I would make a safety exception for them to wear civilian coats over their uniforms rather than risk health issues.

I bet if National HQ was in the northern states this oversight would be taken care of quickly!

Bluelakes 13

#19
Doh!  The fine cadet said it better than I!

;)

I admit, it does look dodgy, but no way in hell am I sending a cadet home with a bad cold, or worse.
http://group22.net/gle05/05week2/img_0476.htm


Matt

#20
 ;D

Yeah, but until that happens we have to have the crazy regulations without real winter coats.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

WICAPMOM

In a perfect world we would all own CAP approved outer wear. (And get paid for what we do)

We need to remember that SAFETY comes first!

If we can not afford to purchase or provide CAP approved outer wear for every member then for the sake of SAFETY allowances must be made for appropriate outer wear, civilian or other, to be worn.

As long as I have been a member it has been the practice that civilian outer wear, without rank insignia, is worn completely fastened and without a cover.

The only persons with the ability to make uniform decisions are a command staff personnel, i.e. the commander of a squadron, group, wing, region, etc.; each affecting their span of command.  Certain things may be recognized at ones home unit, like a cord worn for a squadron honor cadet, but may not be recognized at the wing level.

We are required to wear a minimum uniform. This is the paragraph in M39-1 regarding the blues uniform for cadets:





I am fairly certain this is still current.  At least it was as of 6 months ago.  Keep in mind that our uniform policies are continuously changing.
Julie Anne
Major, CAP ~ Commander
Milwaukee Comp Sqdn 5 (WI-061)

MIKE

Quote from: Matt on September 16, 2005, 03:51:25 PM
If you're going to fight with regs, I'm simply going to state, remember the Safety Pledge.  Telling someone that they may not wear a coat WILL compromise a safety environment.

Not trying to pull out the big guns with the regs here.  Just pointing out that wearing civilian or otherwise unauthorized uniform outerwear is technically not authorized... To say that it is otherwise regardless of the rationale is a false statement and only serves to perpetuate the myth.

We all know that in most areas where the temperature drops below 70, commanders and safety officers turn a blind eye to these particular requirements for the safety and cost versus required uniforms concerns which have been stated already.

Quote from: Matt on September 16, 2005, 03:51:25 PMI've noted that you're from MA, you should know about crappy winter conditions, around here, they're worse.  I'm not going to lie when I say that I wear a ECWCS parka.  I wear it because it's warmer than the M-65, windproof and highly water resistant.

I've seen cases like this arise before about wearing civilian outer garments, and they were quickly put to rest when safety came into play.

Yes, I am from MA where we say that if you don't like the weather, wait five minutes... It'll get worse.

I'm not gonna lie either, I also wear an ECWCS parka with BDUs for the same reasons, but I also have an M-65, as well as lightweight blue jacket and an overcoat for wear with the service uniform.

The fact is we need to stop perpetuating the myth by providing appropriate outerwear and accessories to those that need them... I got my overcoat for 15 bucks used at Hanscom... We should be getting outerwear from DRMO or other government sources to provide to units to issue as organizational equipment. I think we should be looking at All-Weather Coats specifically since they may be worn with all service uniform combinations and even BDUs.  Either that or we need to have everyone in CAP distinctive uniforms where appropriate civilian outerwear is authorized.

JMHO, YMMV.
Mike Johnston

MIKE

Quote from: WICAPMOM on September 16, 2005, 05:36:44 PM
I am fairly certain this is still current.  At least it was as of 6 months ago.  Keep in mind that our uniform policies are continuously changing.

Looks like you are citing the 1 July 1997 CAPM 39-1... You may want to review the latest version here.
Mike Johnston

WICAPMOM

Thank you for the updated version.  I will look it over.

I just want everyone to understand that SAFETY means that if you must go outside, please dress appropriately.

Most rational personell will over look the "Purple mickey mouse cold weather rated parka" (wish I owned one   ;)) when the wind chill is 70 below.  We get that a lot in Wisconson  :(.  It may not be in the regs but at least it's warm.  I think I will top it off with blaze orange winter hat and gloves. ;D
Julie Anne
Major, CAP ~ Commander
Milwaukee Comp Sqdn 5 (WI-061)

Matt

hmmm, Wisconsin Tuxedo with the Orange...  Who's getting married?  Thought we were finished with CAP weddings for the year.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

SarDragon

Quote from: MIKE on September 16, 2005, 06:06:53 PM
The fact is we need to stop perpetuating the myth by providing appropriate outerwear and accessories to those that need them... I got my overcoat for 15 bucks used at Hanscom... We should be getting outerwear from DRMO or other government sources to provide to units to issue as organizational equipment. [nonrelevant text redacted]
Just a quick note about DRMO - most uniform items available at DRMO are there because they are not serviceable, meaning they are no longer suitable for wear by the AD folks. Since we in CAP already have an image problem, why make it worse by wearing worn out uniform items?

Another consideration is sizing - most items at DRMO are too big for half the folks we are trying to outfit.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

md132

Concerning several messages ago about going to an Army PX and getting CW5 Rank.  First, PX's do not carry rank insignia's of any kind.  Only MCSS. Second, CW5 rank insignias are NOT available in plastic casing for flight suits because AD Army CW5 wear subdued.  Third, we are NOT authorize to by Army uniform items to include rank insignias.  Just items like BDU's.  And the only rank insignias that we can get is USAF NCO insignias because they are exactly what Senior Member NCO's use.  And last the only time we can purchase items from PX/BX is when we are on TDY with Orders and MSA stating that.  If not, then it's ONLY uniform items.  This is prescribed in AR 60-90. 

1st Lt Ed Salas, CAP
MD Wing
AAFES Associate "Serving the Best Customers in the World'