Flight Officer rank for Flight Suit and TPU

[SStradley]

Is there Flight Officer rank available for the Flight Suit and TPU?  If not what is the suggestion for these ranks and uniforms?

Thanks,

Spelling - MIKE

[afgeo4]

There is not. I suggest you write FO for the rank on your flightsuit namepatch for identification.

FO insignia for the CDU (TPU) was overlooked and does not exist.

[Pylon]

Blue Flight Officer epaulets exist for the TPU/Corporate Service Dress shirts.  They do not exist for the Corporate Coat right now. 

The type of grade insignia worn on the CSD coat may change in the near future, anyways.

[afgeo4]

Blue Flight Officer epaulets exist for the TPU/Corporate Service Dress shirts.  They do not exist for the Corporate Coat right now. 

The type of grade insignia worn on the CSD coat may change in the near future, anyways.

The corp. service dress coat doesn't take epaulets anyway... you meant metal pin-on rank, right?

Where have you seen the AF blue FO epaulets?

[Pylon]

The corp. service dress coat doesn't take epaulets anyway... you meant metal pin-on rank, right?

Where have you seen the AF blue FO epaulets?

AF-style Blue epaulets in the FO grades exist for the TPU shirt.  Currently, no metal pin-on FO insignia exists for the coat but the coat's setup may be changing in the near future.

Vanguard carries the AF-style blue FO epaulets.  Though they are not shown on the current site, they were listed with photos on the last version of their CAP webstore - indicating that they exist.  Call or email them if you need them.

[DNall]

I guess you could paint osme Lt bars if you REALLY wanted to.

Embroidered grade is avail for the blue flt suits. I believe we're still working on that auth for grn - not sure if it'd be the dark blue, ultramarine, or navy style full color on DO background, but it's somewhere in the works. Plastic encased FO insignia did used to exist & may be avail. Call Vanguard directly & make sure they understand what you're talking about.

[RiverAux]

I could swear I've seen flight officers with rank in flight suits. 

[SarDragon]

I just looked in the Bookstore/CAPMart catalogs back as far as 2000, and only saw embroidered FO rank. It's the ultramarine stuff.

[SStradley]

I guess you could paint osme Lt bars if you REALLY wanted to.

Embroidered grade is avail for the blue flt suits. I believe we're still working on that auth for grn - not sure if it'd be the dark blue, ultramarine, or navy style full color on DO background, but it's somewhere in the works. Plastic encased FO insignia did used to exist & may be avail. Call Vanguard directly & make sure they understand what you're talking about.

I am not sure what "osme" Lt bars, however, I had considered silver paint on subdued Lt bars as an answer for the flight suite.

Should this "oversite" be noted on one of the two Uniform Committee threads, and if so which one.

[BillB]

Twice in the past month there have been the old style USAF Warrent officer metal rank (silver and blue stripes) listed on eBay. This is the same insignia that was used by CAP for the FO insignia. Since USAF dropped the WO program, chances are nobody makes it any more There is one listed now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-US-ARMY-AIR-FORCE-FLIGHT-OFFICER-INSIGNIA-PIN-BACK_W0QQitemZ140202301276QQihZ004QQcategoryZ4729QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m124

[Pylon]

Should this "oversite" be noted on one of the two Uniform Committee threads, and if so which one.

It's not exactly an oversight on the part of our uniform manual and policy, but rather just the fact that the prescribed insignia doesn't exist.   Nonetheless, I'll add it to the list of things to look into.

[SStradley]

Should this "oversite" be noted on one of the two Uniform Committee threads, and if so which one.

It's not exactly an oversight on the part of our uniform manual and policy, but rather just the fact that the prescribed insignia doesn't exist.   Nonetheless, I'll add it to the list of things to look into.

Thank you.

[DNall]

It doesn't exist cause it's not cost effective to make or keep in inventory. It's fully authorized. If you want a legitimate solution, get the cloth authorized. There has been in the past both metal & plastic encased FO/TFO/SFO insignia. Vanguard may still have some of that on hand if you talk them into looking for it. There aren't new batches coming out though.

[afgeo4]

It doesn't exist cause it's not cost effective to make or keep in inventory. It's fully authorized. If you want a legitimate solution, get the cloth authorized. There has been in the past both metal & plastic encased FO/TFO/SFO insignia. Vanguard may still have some of that on hand if you talk them into looking for it. There aren't new batches coming out though.

Why don't they just change the FO insignia to match the US Army's WO and CWO insignia? It would make things oh so much easier for everyone. Vanguard would easily produce/procure the same insignia in any color on any color and the pin on rank exists for the Army anyway. Just one big change, in one shot, takes care of everyone properly.

[Hawk200]

It doesn't exist cause it's not cost effective to make or keep in inventory. It's fully authorized. If you want a legitimate solution, get the cloth authorized. There has been in the past both metal & plastic encased FO/TFO/SFO insignia. Vanguard may still have some of that on hand if you talk them into looking for it. There aren't new batches coming out though.

Why don't they just change the FO insignia to match the US Army's WO and CWO insignia? It would make things oh so much easier for everyone. Vanguard would easily produce/procure the same insignia in any color on any color and the pin on rank exists for the Army anyway. Just one big change, in one shot, takes care of everyone properly.

Do you really want an 18 yo running around with Warrant bars? Just as bad as one having LT bars.

Warrants tend to be a little older too. Those bars on some so young would raise eyebrows, best case, and in the worst case could be a major issue.

As for making FO bars, it wouldn't be hard to do at all. HQ needs to tell Vanguard what they want done, and let them do it.

Thing is, noone seems to want to tell National "Hey, this is an issue, and needs to be dealt with! Do something about it."

That, or it's just falling on deaf ears.

[afgeo4]

First of all... they wouldn't be "warrant" bars. They would just look like them. You don't see the military protesting that we have 28 year olds walking around with Major oak leaves, do you? Know why? Cuz they don't care. We're not their concern. We have no effect on them... at all. We are a whole different bowl of wax as far as Soldiers are concerned (that's if they even know who we are).

Besides, don't you already think that someone in the military would equate our current FO, TFO, and SFO bars as WO and CWO bars anyway? What's the difference? No one in today's military knows what a flight officer is anyway.

[Hawk200]

No one in today's military knows what a flight officer is anyway.

Sounds like a perfectly good reason to keep them. No confusion.

[mikeylikey]

Warrants tend to be a little older too. Those bars on some so young would raise eyebrows, best case, and in the worst case could be a major issue.

The Army has High School to Flight school, and are appointing kids (to most of us here) as Warrant Officers at age 19, possibly even 18.  It happens.

[Hawk200]

Warrants tend to be a little older too. Those bars on some so young would raise eyebrows, best case, and in the worst case could be a major issue.

The Army has High School to Flight school, and are appointing kids (to most of us here) as Warrant Officers at age 19, possibly even 18.  It happens.

I've seen teens that went to flight school. They're usually not out til about 20 or 21. Our facility has a guy in basic flight school that just turned 20 a few months ago. He's supposed to go Apache. He won't be too far away from drinking age when he graduates.

Either way, there is no real need for our 18-21 seniors to wear what would obviously look like warrant rank.

[SStradley]

Warrants tend to be a little older too. Those bars on some so young would raise eyebrows, best case, and in the worst case could be a major issue.

The Army has High School to Flight school, and are appointing kids (to most of us here) as Warrant Officers at age 19, possibly even 18.  It happens.

I've seen teens that went to flight school. They're usually not out til about 20 or 21. Our facility has a guy in basic flight school that just turned 20 a few months ago. He's supposed to go Apache. He won't be too far away from drinking age when he graduates.

Either way, there is no real need for our 18-21 seniors to wear what would obviously look like warrant rank.

The point of the post is that there is no rank for our 18-21 year old seniors to wear on their flight suites and TPUs.  What do I tell my Flight Officer son who when he turns 21 will be promoted to 1st Lt. because of his instrument rating when he asks about his flight suite?

[DNall]

You tell him there's a no more than a couple hundred 18-21yo SMs in the country, all spread between FO/TFO/SFO, so some insignia is not being made cause it'd cost an enormous amount to do it & that money is better spent on other things. You tell him those grades promote in as little as 3mos & no more than 18mos so insignia changes regularly, and it would be an isanely expensive proposition even if it were available. Then you tell him he's a young guy in CAP & our young adult members always get screwed over & over. It won't change when he's a 1Lt, it won't change when he's a Major in his late 20s & 50yos that've been a third of the time he has think he's an incompetent punk kid. You pay your dues, literally &figuratively, and do you job with the options you do have.

[Pylon]

Either way, there is no real need for our 18-21 seniors to wear what would obviously look like warrant rank.

No more or less real need for our 21-112 seniors to wear what would obviously look like officer rank.

[afgeo4]

You tell him there's a no more than a couple hundred 18-21yo SMs in the country, all spread between FO/TFO/SFO, so some insignia is not being made cause it'd cost an enormous amount to do it & that money is better spent on other things. You tell him those grades promote in as little as 3mos & no more than 18mos so insignia changes regularly, and it would be an isanely expensive proposition even if it were available. Then you tell him he's a young guy in CAP & our young adult members always get screwed over & over. It won't change when he's a 1Lt, it won't change when he's a Major in his late 20s & 50yos that've been a third of the time he has think he's an incompetent punk kid. You pay your dues, literally &figuratively, and do you job with the options you do have.

Umm DNall... I like how you said that to you, some members are more important than others... perhaps you should tell all the Colonels and above that they're not important and we should yank their rank insignia because there are VERY few of them too. This has got to be the stupidest explanation ever. Not to mention insulting to our members. Quit it! ALL members are important, no matter what age they are or how many of them there are. It isn't too expensive to create rank insignia for them. They were simply overlooked by our command staff. That's all. It's a shame. A real shame.

[Eeyore]

I completely understand where DNall is coming from there. As a 22 y/o CAP member it is very difficult to be taken seriously by any member over the age of 28 or so. They think that since I am "just a kid" I don't have any clue what I am doing and my opinions generally don't matter.

Funny thing is, my full time job doesn't see it that way at all and are willing to pay me for what I know. 

Usually I don't fight it and just sit back until they figure out that I am pretty capable, even more capable than a lot of them. Put in my dues doing little jobs and doing them well until I'm good enough to join the adults at the big boy table.

[afgeo4]

I completely understand where DNall is coming from there. As a 22 y/o CAP member it is very difficult to be taken seriously by any member over the age of 28 or so. They think that since I am "just a kid" I don't have any clue what I am doing and my opinions generally don't matter.

Funny thing is, my full time job doesn't see it that way at all and are willing to pay me for what I know. 

Usually I don't fight it and just sit back until they figure out that I am pretty capable, even more capable than a lot of them. Put in my dues doing little jobs and doing them well until I'm good enough to join the adults at the big boy table.

You, my friend, are exactly the reason why this way of thinking is wrong. Good people don't come in age brackets. Respect should be given to those who earn it, not those over a particular age range.

[Hawk200]

I completely understand where DNall is coming from there. As a 22 y/o CAP member it is very difficult to be taken seriously by any member over the age of 28 or so. They think that since I am "just a kid" I don't have any clue what I am doing and my opinions generally don't matter.

Funny thing is, my full time job doesn't see it that way at all and are willing to pay me for what I know. 

Usually I don't fight it and just sit back until they figure out that I am pretty capable, even more capable than a lot of them. Put in my dues doing little jobs and doing them well until I'm good enough to join the adults at the big boy table.

A very mature viewpoint. Sometimes it's easier to just let others see your capabilities than to demand they respect them.

You remind me of a cadet in a previous unit. He had an amazing ability when it came to DF. Many seniors insisted that since he was so young, he couldn't be all that good. I've watched him walk right up to a particular aircraft or even a practice ELT to turn them off. When a guy can go directly to a particular aircraft when there are a dozen on the airfield, and hit the right one every time, you know he has some talent. There were a few seniors that disliked him for it. I ignored them, and would usually pick his brain on the how he did it. Learned a few things, too.

In your case, I'm hoping that it doesn't take long for people to see your skills. I'd be proud to work with you.

[afgeo4]

I too agree with letting your light shine through. However, I am all for creating a culture of respect toward all members in CAP.

Somehow I don't see anyone saying that there aren't many C/Col out there and yet they have insignia made for them. How do we simply allow ourselves to just OMIT flight officers as if they don't exist, don't pay their dues and don't work as hard as everyone else?

After all, an FO working hard and impressing others still wont get him/her proper, uniform grade insignia.

[DNall]

Hey I started out in CAP as a lowly FO. I know very well what that's all about. It doesn't change a lot when you're a 21yo 1Lt or 30yo Maj. It sucks, let me tell ya.

I'm just stating facts that they don't make the stuff cause it isn't economical. There's about as many full Cols in CAP as there are FO/TFO/SFO combined. And, they are decision makers that force issues like this.

It's not my fault the org routinely forgets about folks like FOs, females, and cadets when it makes uniform decisions. I wish that weren't the case, but it is & we have to work around it as much as we're able to.

[afgeo4]

Hey I started out in CAP as a lowly FO. I know very well what that's all about. It doesn't change a lot when you're a 21yo 1Lt or 30yo Maj. It sucks, let me tell ya.

I'm just stating facts that they don't make the stuff cause it isn't economical. There's about as many full Cols in CAP as there are FO/TFO/SFO combined. And, they are decision makers that force issues like this.

It's not my fault the org routinely forgets about folks like FOs, females, and cadets when it makes uniform decisions. I wish that weren't the case, but it is & we have to work around it as much as we're able to.

If I was a good lawyer (I'm not even a bad one), I could probably make a case for age discrimination in this case (perhaps not an intentional though).