Do we have a Responsibility?

[afgeo4]

I would certainly hope that if a CAP member witnesses a crime on a military installation that the member would report it to the authorities immediately. The base police hopes they would too.

Look, the UCMJ has nothing to do with anything. If a civilian on base witnesses a crime they are expected to report it just like anyone else. CAP members are civilians.

In my days I've seen shoplifting, drunk driving, petty theft, etc and I'm not even an SP. Protect the military community. Report crime as you see it.

[mikeylikey]

A railroad policeman rolling by would of course stop and interview this fellow, and pass his "F.I." (field interview) card to the local authorities. No violation of the democrats er, citizens rights has occurred.

Major Lord

Anyway, If a COP goes to my workplace to inform them that I "Committed NO crime" but merely was "shady" and that gets me fired, or even gets me called in before my boss, the ACLU would have a freaking field day.  You can go as far as calling it defamation of character as well.

I agree law enforcement should share info on bad guys.  But a guy that was let go, without being arrested is by all accounts not under arrest.  What right does a police officer have calling employers on a guy that is by all accounts no longer suspect.  It is called Vendetta.  The Cop couldn't get his arrest so the only way to really screw over the person who he thinks is guilty is to call the military.  You wasted your two hours hoping to get a big time bust, and you walked away with nothing to show of your two hours, so your pissed.  What better way to see that your personal form of justice is served is by intruding on this guys profession.  You became judge, jury and executioner with one phone call.    

Way to go!    

The military, BTW,  is not just an employer.  Employers don't have the authority to put you in jail or order you to give your life.  I don't think you've ever been in the military.  If so, you'd know the difference.

If this was directed at me, I was stating "employer" to encompass civil employers not just the military situation we are discussing.

BTW.....I may have less than 10 years commissioned service, but I have been around the block my fair share.  If you need proof please PM me.  There are 10 or so people here that can also vouch for my military career, that know me in "the real world" if more is needed.  I do ask in return for you to prove yourself as well.  Don't ever make an assumption because as the saying goes, "when you assume, you make ass out of YOU and me", and I have no problem being an A-Hole.

You successfully sidetracked my train of thought.  I now no longer care about Flying Pig or that innocent man he tried to screw over.  We will let law scholars debate this further.

Going on the whole "I'm not in the military thing" I will end with, I will be at Carlisle Barracks, PA, next week.  Anyone that would like to meet and have a piece of Pizza at the War College or debate some philosophical issues PM me.  I always love to meet CAPTALKERS in person.

[Flying Pig]

That was some awsome reading.  I hope your meeting goes well.

Let me expand....I am an Expert Witness in the State of Ca.  Ive testified as an expert in many cases for dope, posession, under the influence, sales, possession for sales, and manufacturing.   I have arrested several people just for being lookouts.  No dope on their person, not under the influence, just merely a guy sitting in a chair to the untrained person.  I got a guy 7 years for possession for sales.....and I didnt even have any dope to book into evidence because he flushed it all as we were kicking in the door.  Debate that one.

Stick to whatever it is you do mikey, and Ill stick to being a cop.

[Ned]

[Anyway, If a COP goes to my workplace to inform them that I "Committed NO crime" but merely was "shady" and that gets me fired, or even gets me called in before my boss, the ACLU would have a freaking field day.

I dunno about that.  I've worked with the ACLU from time to time, and they almost always come solidly down on the side of the First Amendment.  Freedom of Speech and all that.

Like the right for someone to publicly state the truth.

Even a cop telling someone else the truth about you.

What you boss chooses to do after hearing a truthful statement about you is entirely up to her (and perhaps company policy and state law.)


Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Johnny Yuma]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

Mikey,

You know full well that the military isn't just another employer. You sign on to a different set of rules when you join and you know that.

[aveighter]

There are a number of active duty or retired military officers that post here on a regular basis.  A careful review of mikeys posts reveals a significant difference in the general intellectual and emotional level of maturity and tone of those contributions.

I have come to suspect that he is not a military officer at all and if he is indeed a member of the American military that he is, in fact, an E-1 assigned to the typing pool at some obscure post connecting to the net via a dial-up modem of early vintage.   

[Nomex Maximus]

. . .
Your passionate but uninformed opinion suggests I violate the neighbor kids' rights when I tell their parents they did something wrong but not so wrong it warrants calling the police.  When I was a cop I also handled some matters in a non-judicial manner.  That's one of the concepts of Community Oriented Policing, not a police state.

Hehehe... one of the most effective street adjustments I ever used was to simply bring the young tikes home to their parents. "Is this your son?" "Yes, officer he is." "Well, I just found him <doing some form of mischief>. Could I have your full name and date of birth for the report?" So much easier to do that than to drag them to jail and have to do all the paperwork... hehehe... those were good times...

[mikeylikey]

There are a number of active duty or retired military officers that post here on a regular basis.  A careful review of mikeys posts reveals a significant difference in the general intellectual and emotional level of maturity and tone of those contributions.

I have come to suspect that he is not a military officer at all and if he is indeed a member of the American military that he is, in fact, an E-1 assigned to the typing pool at some obscure post connecting to the net via a dial-up modem of early vintage.   

Wow.  Did you go through all 1700 posts or so?  Because I am passionate about something, or express my dislike of something you can bash me??  What the crap?  At least I know how to use the spell check button, unlike many other officers on here.  I can put a simple sentence together to unlike many here.  Who the crap are you?  What did I ever do to you?  Did I disagree with an issue you were in favor of?  Did I shoot down one of your ideas?  You must be specific, as I have posted many a reply. 

Please give me specifics where my intellectual and emotional level of maturity is lacking.  Sure I made a few mistakes and got into heated discussions, and then took it to PM when those involved decided to begin the name calling game. 

You are apparently out to get me, so in the future if you want to "call me stupid" take it to PM.  Thank you for demonstrating what a waste you can be.  You know nothing about me.  I am not a stupid person, and I try to think of myself as a very mature person.  Sure I like to kid around on here, but that is here. 

Thanks again for calling me out.  Maybe next time just start a new topic so everyone can bash me.

Finally who are you to be the judge of intellect and emotional maturity?   

[mikeylikey]

aveighter.....after some post searching I found out why you hate me!  You hate me because I was in total disagreement with you over the weight issue and wearing of AF uniforms by FAT people.

Now I get it.......still holding onto that grudge is not healthy.  Let it go already!

Start the New Year off right.  forget and forgive those that have disagreed with you in 2007.  I bet you may be able to sleep better at night!

PEACE

[Gunner C]

There are a number of active duty or retired military officers that post here on a regular basis.  A careful review of mikeys posts reveals a significant difference in the general intellectual and emotional level of maturity and tone of those contributions.

I have come to suspect that he is not a military officer at all and if he is indeed a member of the American military that he is, in fact, an E-1 assigned to the typing pool at some obscure post connecting to the net via a dial-up modem of early vintage.   

Ah yes.  Me thinks the lad doth protest too much.  Typing pool? 

Twinkle twinkle little shield
Keep me off the battle field

(And I LIKE admin/personnel guys!)  :angel:

[Major Lord]

It is amazing how far afield this topic went, isn't it? Mikey, my concern with you ( aside from the fact that I think anonymous posters are chickens) is that you always seem to come down on the most anti-American side of any conversation. Your apparent disrespect for the law and law enforcement is something we see in people who do not hold the law as a sacred and integral aspect of what makes America. On closer review of your posts, I think that you have  sensitive nose for injustice, but little factual knowledge of the law. This is correctable. When you come from your far left position to denounce one of ours as a pipe swinger for the Nazi's, don't be surprised if a few people swing back at you. In fairness, most have been remarkably gentle.

Major Lord

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm gonna try to not make any personal cheap shots, but my usual sarcasm might irritate some.

Flying Pig made a point of notifying the Marine's first sergeant.  IF he wanted to screw with a guy, he could have called the company commander.  He didn't.  He expected that, like good first shirts everywhere, that the NCO would pull the Marine up by his short hairs and advise him of exactly where his present course will take him.  Wall-to-wall counseling it used to be called.

And I have not hesitated to call employers when I see their company vehicles being used to solicit prostitues.  IF the vice squad were to catch them, the vehicles would be impounded, and the company would be out a few hundred dollars plus a lot of lost productivity to get it back.  I have never been accused of violating anyone's rights by giving people a word of warning regarding activity that they should be concerned about.

And police are more than clerks.  Police officers are expected to exercise judgement and avail themselves of any and all resources to keep the public peace and establish order.

And, riveraj... you were not necessarily stopped for being black.  My guess is that at 1am the officer probably could not determine your race until you were stopped.  Frankly, the light conditions make that observation possible at 1 in the afternoon, but not at 1 in the morning.  But at 1 in the morning studies show that 1 out of 4 drivers is drunk.  My standard for stopping a car at 1am was a lot lower than at 1pm just because of that fact.

Drunk drivers kill more people than all of the silly-punk street gangs combined. 

[mikeylikey]

It is amazing how far afield this topic went, isn't it? Mikey, my concern with you ( aside from the fact that I think anonymous posters are chickens) is that you always seem to come down on the most anti-American side of any conversation. Your apparent disrespect for the law and law enforcement is something we see in people who do not hold the law as a sacred and integral aspect of what makes America. On closer review of your posts, I think that you have  sensitive nose for injustice, but little factual knowledge of the law. This is correctable. When you come from your far left position to denounce one of ours as a pipe swinger for the Nazi's, don't be surprised if a few people swing back at you. In fairness, most have been remarkably gentle.

Major Lord

My concern with you sir, is that I made reference to fascist political entities.  I never said Flying Pig was a blah blah blah.......

I totally disagree that anyone has any right to interfere in the personal and private life of anyone without their permission.  Granted if you are hauled off to jail that is a different story, but that Marine was not.  He was never arrested, or charged with a thing.  To call his boss and say "Joe was in a bad neighborhood tonight....." is outside the limits of what police should be doing.  Do you call the employer of everyone you write a traffic citation out on?  Well you should based on what people are posting here. 

So because I don't hold the law up and pray before it, I am UN-American.  The most anyone will get from me will be that I don't violate the law.  (other than a parking ticket....when the meter ran out).

I would characterise myself as a very Patriotic Citizen.  To question policy, practices and laws is a right given to me by our ancestors.  To do so does not make a person Anti-American, in fact it may make them more American.  Would you rather be sheep, or decide your own fate in this country.   I also do not believe I trash talk on this country.  Politics, perhaps.   

As to the comment about anonymous posters being chicken, that was already hashed up in previous topics.  My stance is that until CAPTALk says we have to register our name and location in the Sig, then I will be anonymous.  I do this because of people like you and aveighter.  Not to mention there have been lawsuits brought about because of what other posters said on CAPTALK.  No one needs to be able to hunt me down for expressing my opinions.  I am not an anonymous poster who shows up for one day to trash people.  I have been here for some time, and I think I added to some very good discussions. 

In closing, I don't like you.  Making me out to be an UN-American pipe-swinging leftist was just a tad too far.  I know what I have done for this country and what I continue to do.  Others here who know me outside this forum know me to be the exact opposite of what you say.  I have spent the better part of this decade outside of the states, away from family and friends, sacrificing everything to the military. I would give my life to protect yours even though I don't think I like you.  Would you do the same for me? 

Please if you want to bash me......lets take it to PM. 

[Flying Pig]

Give it up Mikey...your over zealous dislike for law enforcement officers and what we do got the better of you.  Your one of those loud mouth people I deal with daily who took some Crim class and can rattle off exerpts from books but don't have the slightest clue what we do or what it takes to actually put cuffs on someone.  Your babble shows your ignorance.  Even when other law enforcement officers come on and back up what I did, thats not good enough for you.  Because we are over bearing thugs in your mind who go out only to fulfill personal vendettas against people.    Your interpretation of the law is right up there with what I get from High School students at parties when I tell them its over.  They rattle off about Nazi's and their rights.  Trust me,  I know what your rights are. 

You are in no place accusing me of setting someone up.  Look up the word "entrapment".   Thats actually the word we use in big boy police work.   Then get back to me.  Watching a guy solicit crime doesn't fit.   How does an educated guy like yourself draw so many conclusions based off of a 2 hour surveillance condensed into a couple of sentences on a blog?  A couple of sentences that were preceded by the comment that "there is more to the story".  Your immediate reaction was police abuse of power.   Perhaps a "Hey, Im confused.....could you provide some more detail?"   But instead, your reaction was "Law Suit."   You have no idea how many criminals I have let walk away because I wasn't willing to cross the line, and then you have the nerve to suggest that I would "set people up?"  What about the other officers who were on my team?  Any character references about them that you would like me to pass on?   I imagine the teams combined 40+ years of experience in active street narcotics enforcement means nothing.  Notice I said "enforcement".  That means out there putting it to use, daily, on the street, dealing with the consequences if I screw up.  Not sitting at home reading about it.  Do yourself a favor and stick to talking about subjects you know something about.

For now...grab your soda and run back to your TV....CSI-Miami is coming on.  I think the hot blond detective beats a confession out of a guy with a phone book in this episode.

[mikeylikey]

^ Whatever.  I still think you had no right calling that Marines CoC.  That is all I wanted to get across.  You are right, I don't trust Law Enforcement.  I have personally seen first hand LEO abuse their powers.  In fact, I don't have very much confidence in our legal system either.  Granted it is the best thing going in the world right now, but way too many innocent people are sent to prison or executed for crimes they did not commit. 

To that end, I don't watch CSI.  I watch Law and Order, and all of it's spinoffs. 

I will end this here, because I am afraid you or someone else may sue me.

[aveighter]

I take back what I said about mikey.  Upon further reflection I doubt he is an E-1 assigned to the typing pool.

I suspect this is the output of a mid-pubescent underachiever who spends most of the day on a Cheeto littered, coke stained couch railing against a world that has seemingly left him behind. 

The part about the dial-up modem, however, is pretty accurate I think.

[bosshawk]

May I suggest that the Moderator cut this diatribe off?  This whole subject has deteriorated into a name-calling, insulting mess and it doesn't befit the ethics nor morals of our organization.

[mikeylikey]

I take back what I said about mikey.  Upon further reflection I doubt he is an E-1 assigned to the typing pool.

I suspect this is the output of a mid-pubescent underachiever who spends most of the day on a Cheeto littered, coke stained couch railing against a world that has seemingly left him behind. 

The part about the dial-up modem, however, is pretty accurate I think.

                     

Actually I prefer cheesums (or chessy poofs) and I take the coke stained couch to mean coca-cola, not cocaine, so you are right.  I spilled a diet coke on the couch about a week ago.  I still don't hate you aveighter!   

[Major Carrales]

Fellows, Really, this conversation is getting us no where if it goes down to name calling.

The correct address for all the issues here is simple.  We need to be good citizens.  The definition of that as an American is one of freedom and liberty.  To some, that means reporting inequities, to others that means controlling one's internal situation.  They are both correct.  That is the joy of Americanism, personal choice.

It doesn't make you a NAZI to report crime or questionable behavior, such an intervention may actually be beneficial to the individual and the society.  It doesn't really make you unAmerican not to report questionable behavior, however you should report crimes.  The later is important because crime is contrary to a society's development and citizens.  It should be pointed out that "police brutality and abuses" also constitutes a crime.  The argument that one must "mind their own business" would also mean that the police abuses should not be reported as well.  Here is that slipery slope.

Again, it comes down to good citizenship and an understanding of the US Consitution, American Jurisprudence and Human Nature.

[Stonewall]

The name calling and insults are just stupid.

As far as the original argument, I can put myself on both sides of the fence and see valid points from each.  As a police officer working on and around a military base, I deal with this stuff all the time.  I prefer not to get military members in trouble with their chain of command, but sometimes the servicemembers actions don't give us a choice.

Take a DUI for instance.  I can go about it two ways.

1.  Arrest, take him down to Duval County and process him as a civilian.  He'll lose his license, have a record and of course, lose tons of money in the process.  If this young 21 year old sailor had aspirations of doing something along the lines of law enforcement or public safety after his 4 year enlistment, his life is screwed.

2.  Detain him, take him to his command and let them deal with him.  He may lose a stripe, get 45 days restriction with 45 days extra duty and lose some pay.  But chances are, he won't see this experience on his civilian record.

While yes, some would disagree with taking a person to their "employer", in this case, we actually do the servicemember a favor.  IF the dude was being a total butthead or actually said "screw you copper, take me to the county", off to county we'd go.  This is why it pays to cooperate with, be respectful and honest with the officer.