Do we have a Responsibility?

[SAR-EMT1]

If I were to observe a Servicemember do something contrary to the UCMJ,  or plain old common sense, do I have a responsibility to alert the folks at the local base as to what occured?
( I know if it was a civil crime I'd alert local PD)

-- Yes, I would probably politely ask them to knock off the booze or whatnot.

I am aware that CAP has no connection to the UCMJ.
And I know that I cant "order" anyone to do anything and wouldnt try.

If the answer is yes or maybe to my question what is the best way one should go about it and how should we identify ourselves to the base personnel?

* Im not trying to be a wannabe Alpha hotel, just curious to continue a train of thought from a recent thread.

[PA Guy]

How many people in CAP have a real knowledge of the UCMJ?  I have no responsibility as a member of CAP to engage in this sort of activity.  If it is something truly offensive to the public good let the civil authorities take care of it.  CAP has enough problems without its members thinking that by virtue of CAP membership they have some sort of responsibility to report service personnel.  Like I said if they are breaking the law notify local law enforcement as a private citizen and butt out of UCMJ violations.

[SAR-EMT1]

A good point PAGuy,

I was just reading the Military Law section of the Reserve Officer Prep Course (AFIADL 00017) and it got me thinking about a post I saw several days ago.
Again, I wasnt trying to overstep my bounds.

( I would reccommend the -17 Course. It isnt CAP specific, but has excellent material  and is a good 'practice course' before one tackles SOS or ACSC.)

[Dragoon]

You have no more responsiblity than the average american civilian.  If you think it's important, let the MPs (or the base commander's office) know about it, very politely.

No reason to "identify yourself" if you choose to report it - your status as a CAP member isn't relevant. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dragoon:

I agree with you.  A serious crime, a G.I. snatching a purse, for example, you should do what you can.  Minor violations... mild but rowdy intoxication, uniform violations, etc. I suggest you keep your own counsel.

But...

I think it is a different situation entirely if YOU are in an AF officer's uniform and there is some apparent disturbance involving military persons in uniform, when the public is present to witness the event.  All the public will see is military people behaving badly and an officer failing to take action.  In that case, I think a word of caution is indicated, and if that doesn't work, a call to 911.

[Dragoon]

That's a good point.  It would be a tough situation either way.  If you do nothing, it's possible that an onlooker may misunderstand why you did nothing.  Of course, if you do something, you're likely to be completely ignored, which would look equally odd.

But again, if it's a criminal offense (like a fight), your best bet is to call 911.  The fact that it's military guys involved doesn't enter into it.  It's a crime.

I can't think of too many UCMJ offenses that are NOT civil offenses that a CAP member:

1.  Is likely to witness
2.  Are serious enough to have him step in.

Now, if you HAPPEN to witness someone disturbing a public animal, or malingering, or missing movement, I guess you'll have to make the call.   

[Flying Pig]

I would look at it in a manner that completely removes the military aspect from the scenario.  If you were just a person witnessing another person doing something, would it warrant reporting?

If your answer is Yes, I would call the MP's and just report what you saw like you would as a civilian, identify yourself as a civilian who is on base,  and take it from there.  Leave the CAP out of it unless it comes up.  If your off base, call the local police.  If it turns into something, like an arrest or citation it will take care of its self on the military end.

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occassion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occassions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

I imagine you are refering to criminal violations of the UCMJ.  Because the UCMJ is a weird animal and isnt understood by most civilians.  For example, when I was in Infantry School, when we were on liberty, we were ordered to wear our shirts tucked in with a belt. (in civilian clothes).  If not, I guess we were technically inviolation of the UCMJ.  Before we left base, your civilian attire had to be inspected by the Sgt. before you could sign out.  We did have guys "busted" for that!  Oh, the good ol days.

[mikeylikey]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

[Major Lord]

As a CAP member, or as a private citizen, you generally don't have any special reponsibilty to report UCMJ violations. Do you  have a duty to do so? In the words of Jimminy Cricket "let your conscience be your guide". Your post indicates that your question relates to non-criminal behavior, but it could also be interpreted to refer to suspicious behavior. If for instance, AIC Mohammed asked you if you knew where you could purchase an AK and a pound of semtex, and if you really think you will get your 72 virgins in paradise, no violation of law or the UCMJ has taken place. Reportable behavior? You decide......

There are instances in which we as CAP members do have a specific legal duty to report. If we become aware of physical or sexual abuse of a child, for instance, we have a legal duty to act. (more so than anyone else off the street, since we are in a special position of trust in a Youth Organization...for those of you in Alabama, this probably does not apply)

People have also interpreted CAPR 900-3 incorrectly to mean that we can't report or arrest offenders. We have the same rights as private citizens, and members of the military, to make citizens' arrests for any public offense. Use that right wisely. We have a legal duty to aid law enforcement as part of the Posse Comitatus when not on AFAMs.

Should you report AIC snuffy for wearing Captains bars on his uniform when you spot him at Taco Bell? I would leave it alone personally. ( he is probably a CAP member in that case...) It is not the hill you want to die on.

Major Lord

[Major Lord]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

Jeeeezes! Are you really calling a CAP member and a Cop a member of the Gestapo? All righ then Tovarich, I guess you can just march down to the local ACLU office and tell them what this bad man did while protecting your streets and your country. Sweet Mother of Buddha Man, you owe flying pig a serious apology!

Major Lord

[mikeylikey]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

Jeeeezes! Are you really calling a CAP member and a Cop a member of the Gestapo? All righ then Tovarich, I guess you can just march down to the local ACLU office and tell them what this bad man did while protecting your streets and your country. Sweet Mother of Buddha Man, you owe flying pig a serious apology!

Major Lord

Why?  The guy in all legality was innocent, yet was treated as a bad guy after the cop couldn't get his arrest.  And I said Gestapo comes to mind, I never said "FlyingPig" is a blah blah blah.......

[JohnKachenmeister]

I've been a cop for more than 25 years, and I thought Flying Pig showed great judgement and probably did the dude a serious favor.

And he DID commit a crime:

1.  Attempts.  Most states have a general attempt statute that makes the attempt to commit an offense a crime.

2.  Art. 134 UCMJ, Conduct Prejudicial to Good Order and Discipline.

[mikeylikey]

^ But if the "criminal" was not charged or arrested, he is innocent, right?  Everyone is innocent even if they commit a crime, until they are found guilty either by admission, trail by jury, or bench decision. 

If this guy was let go, what right is it for anyone to call his employee?  Until a person is officially charged, where does it say police have to call anyone's employee?

I would be pissed if a cop that wrote me a speeding ticket decided to call my employee and let them know I received a ticket.  It is no business but my own. 

Maybe I am naive of how the law works in this country, but I have watched my fair share of Law and Order. 

However, I don't know how the whole situation went down, I am sure I am missing a huge piece of the puzzle.  One thing I do know, years ago in criminal law at Penn State, I sat through a presentation where the speaker said that "Police Officers are CLERKS, they are to write down, or remember what ever is said or whatever they see so that justice can be handed out.  You have no obligation to speak to a Police Officer for anything, except to give name, date of birth and address.  Anything else should be done through a lawyer, and if a Cop ever says "why do you need a lawyer, are you guilty of something", your response should be "my lawyer will answer that!". 

I have nothing but respect for law enforcement, they risk their lives to protect ordinary citizens.  However, the justice system is skewed to screw over too many innocent people.  Until there is a system in place that does not execute innocent people, or send innocent people to jail, it is unfair to all. 

So, nothing against cops, just the system in which they work.

[Capt Rivera]

I have to agree with Mike.... If you as a cop do not arrest the person, two bad. You arrest him and he is held over night, more then likely his chain of command will know. If he is not arrested, maybe you do him a favor by pointing out his stupidness but alerting his chain of command to your gut feeling you do the person a great injustice. Maybe in this case your correct but are you going to say you have never made a single mistake your whole entire life? [You need to account for when you messed in your pampers, that, i would estimate as a mistake, something you didn't intend to do and something you don't currently do. correct?]

If the person did do what you claim he has no place in the military but he should be convicted somewhere outside of just your mind! Other then that, you probably hurt his carrier, period. That did him no favor and you should NOT feel good about yourself.

I've driven in the wrong neighborhood also. My town is a white town by all respects of that phrase. The last time i was pulled over for driving while black was last thanksgiving night. I made the mistake of WORKING till 1am. So when the officer passed by head on, saw a black person driving alone at 1am, he assumed i would HAVE to be drunk. He pulled a U-turn and confronted me as I was getting out of my car to enter an apt building. Where we passed he was getting off of a off-ramp and could not see me before I saw him. he had probably 30 feet of driving to have been passed me. in that 45 seconds, he determined I was drunk and needed to be stopped/questioned etc. After he realized I was not drunk I had to prove that I  that I was indeed a member of the military as my license plate indicated, that it was my car that I was driving [registration and plate check] then for good measure, lets see if I have any warrants.

Being a cop by virtue does not make you perfect or above the law that you are supposed to enforce. Cops are good at often ONLY doing what they can by their understanding of the law, if a citizen asks for help, [read: they don't want to make a bad arrest] but they are known for going the extra mile if they FEEL someone has done something wrong and FEEL like doing something about it.

You might be the exception to this, but don't expect me to take your word for it. But the exception is far from the rule.

[Gunner C]

I've been a cop for more than 25 years, and I thought Flying Pig showed great judgement and probably did the dude a serious favor.

And he DID commit a crime:

1.  Attempts.  Most states have a general attempt statute that makes the attempt to commit an offense a crime.

2.  Art. 134 UCMJ, Conduct Prejudicial to Good Order and Discipline.

Article 134 (also called the "Everything Else Article") is one of the great things about the UCMJ - it penalizes the stupid.  I doesn't usually get past non-judicial punishment, but it gives the soldier, airman, etc a chance to think about behavior of the past that will:

1.  Get them killed, hurt, put in jail, or otherwise get them in a trick

2.  Teaches that character (doing the right thing even when no one is looking) is better than not getting caught.

I have to agree with you, John.  That cop probably either saved the life of that youngster or kept them from doing something that the youngster would have regretted for years on end.

As an officer (yes, even as a retired officer), I still hold a commission.  If I see someone who is obviously doing wrong, I have a moral and legal responsibility to act.  It may be just informing the unit's commander, it may be calling the police.  Under some circumstances, I still hold arrest authority (tho very narrow circumstances) since my commission doesn't expire.

Should any member of society report law breakers?  Yes!  Are we members of society?  Yes! 

BTW, I've seen secret police (GESTAPO is a German acronymn for Secret State Police).  We have nothing even remotely like that.  If people were less worried about being politically correct (a Soviet term used to keep you from getting in trouble with the secret police), there would be less crime - the ACLU be [darn]ed! 

The military, BTW,  is not just an employer.  Employers don't have the authority to put you in jail or order you to give your life.  I don't think you've ever been in the military.  If so, you'd know the difference.

GC

[Capt Rivera]

The military, BTW,  is not just an employer.  Employers don't have the authority to put you in jail or order you to give your life.  I don't think you've ever been in the military.  If so, you'd know the difference.

Assumption incorrect if your talking about me! I am in the military as my post said [You didn't direct the statement to anyone that I noticed]

Maybe you saved someones life, maybe you ruined it. The person COULD have been lost and asking for directions. As he DID NOT commit a crime, he should NOT be punished. The Officer in question at the time, punished him because he thought he deserved it and he could not punish him under law, therefor other wise wasting his time, the time used in following the car around instead of driving up to him, identifying himself as an officer and seeing if he could be of assistance.

Just the thought of I COULD have just gotten locked up, might be enough to save a soldiers life. If that person was up for a promotion or at the end of an enlistment/commission and about to sign on for more, you PROBABLY ended his carrier, based on an assumption.

If he didn't even have enough "evidence" to detain the individual, or process him for more questioning, he had no business calling anyone at the base. If your not OSI, don't make yourself believe you should function anywhere near what they do.

To agree further with Mike, I would have sued you and I would have one. No matter what your intentions were, you were wrong and misused your authority and position.

[Major Lord]

A person you observe in suspicious circumstances is neither guilty or "innocent". There is a legal presumption of innocence in court, but clearly, you can place people into custody without first having a conviction, so this legal presumption does not extend to the pre-trial phase of criminal justice. . In the circumstances described by flying pig, he clearly had probable cause to detain and interview the suspect. Law Enforcement people routinely share intelligence about suspected criminals, locations, and activities, either formally or informally, and this sharing of information does not require the approval of an ACLU lawyer-sorry. If for instance, there was a man walking around with no clothes on except for a trench coat in front of your children's school, with a set of binoculars and a roll of duct tape, you might argue that no crime had been committed. A railroad policeman rolling by would of course stop and interview this fellow, and pass his "F.I." (field interview) card to the local authorities. No violation of the democrats er, citizens rights has occurred.

Major Lord

[Gunner C]

Assumption incorrect if your talking about me! I am in the military as my post said [You didn't direct the statement to anyone that I noticed]

Nope, wasn't refering to you.

As he DID NOT commit a crime, he should NOT be punished. The Officer in question at the time, punished him because he thought he deserved it and he could not punish him under law, therefor other wise wasting his time, the time used in following the car around instead of driving up to him, identifying himself as an officer and seeing if he could be of assistance.

People don't (statistical zero) just get lost in hooker/drugville.  They go there to score the local industry.  Trust this old senior NCO/officer - this wouldn't be a huge supprise to the squadron/company commander.  He and his first sergeant know who the idiots are.  They're not going to burn someone who's a straight shooter who just screws up once.  But believe me, straight shooters don't end up in those neighborhoods.

Just the thought of I COULD have just gotten locked up, might be enough to save a soldiers life. If that person was up for a promotion or at the end of an enlistment/commission and about to sign on for more, you PROBABLY ended his carrier, based on an assumption.

A policeman's job is not worrying about someone's career.  That soldier/airman, etc should have been worried about their own career.

If he didn't even have enough "evidence" to detain the individual, or process him for more questioning, he had no business calling anyone at the base. If your not OSI, don't make yourself believe you should function anywhere near what they do.

If you are in the military, you don't really understand how it works.  Officers of any service have arrest authority (I've read several idiots their rights as an officer - they didn't think that I had the power to do it, either, and they ended up losing stripes; one ended up making small rocks out of large ones for 181 days), but that wasn't what I was talking about - a police officer has the option of contacting the military authorities if he thinks that is a viable option.  A first sergeant can drive home a point without using the UCMJ.

To agree further with Mike, I would have sued you and I would have one. No matter what your intentions were, you were wrong and misused your authority and position.

I'd buy a ticket to that trial.  You'd not only be laughed out of court, but you'd find yourself under a great deal of military scrutiny.

[Gunner C]

A person you observe in suspicious circumstances is neither guilty or "innocent". There is a legal presumption of innocence in court, but clearly, you can place people into custody without first having a conviction, so this legal presumption does not extend to the pre-trial phase of criminal justice. . In the circumstances described by flying pig, he clearly had probable cause to detain and interview the suspect. Law Enforcement people routinely share intelligence about suspected criminals, locations, and activities, either formally or informally, and this sharing of information does not require the approval of an ACLU lawyer-sorry. If for instance, there was a man walking around with no clothes on except for a trench coat in front of your children's school, with a set of binoculars and a roll of duct tape, you might argue that no crime had been committed. A railroad policeman rolling by would of course stop and interview this fellow, and pass his "F.I." (field interview) card to the local authorities. No violation of the democrats er, citizens rights has occurred.

Major Lord

Well said.  Barracks lawyers never cease to amaze me  I had one smart guy who didn't think that I had the authority as a rear detachment commander to administer UCMJ.  He swore up and down that I was out of line - until it came time to sign the Article 15.  I told him that if he thought that I was overstepping my authority, he could demand trial by court martial.  He accepted it and signed.  I put the paperwork in my desk drawer and told him that if he screwed up again, I'd pull it out and put it in effect.  He became one of the best junior NCOs I had after that.

I hadn't thought of the field interview angle.  But that goes along with what I said above, commanders know who their bad apples are and need to know.  A commander needs to know if theres anyone in their command who isn't trustworthy.

[wuzafuzz]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

I see nothing wrong with the actions FlyingPig took and I take exception to your claim he violated anyone's rights.  The circumstances described show behavior that could potentially be admitted as evidence of a crime when presented by an expert witness. John Kachenmeister was exactly right when he suggested there may have been other lesser but included offenses.  (Your mileage may vary depending on your state laws.)  However an arrest may not have been worth the bother as compared to other alternatives.  FlyingPig exercised some judgement and took a course of action you happen to disagree with.  That neither makes him worthy of the Gestapo title or any other mud you want to throw at him.  

Your passionate but uninformed opinion suggests I violate the neighbor kids' rights when I tell their parents they did something wrong but not so wrong it warrants calling the police.  When I was a cop I also handled some matters in a non-judicial manner.  That's one of the concepts of Community Oriented Policing, not a police state.

[afgeo4]

I would certainly hope that if a CAP member witnesses a crime on a military installation that the member would report it to the authorities immediately. The base police hopes they would too.

Look, the UCMJ has nothing to do with anything. If a civilian on base witnesses a crime they are expected to report it just like anyone else. CAP members are civilians.

In my days I've seen shoplifting, drunk driving, petty theft, etc and I'm not even an SP. Protect the military community. Report crime as you see it.

[mikeylikey]

A railroad policeman rolling by would of course stop and interview this fellow, and pass his "F.I." (field interview) card to the local authorities. No violation of the democrats er, citizens rights has occurred.

Major Lord

Anyway, If a COP goes to my workplace to inform them that I "Committed NO crime" but merely was "shady" and that gets me fired, or even gets me called in before my boss, the ACLU would have a freaking field day.  You can go as far as calling it defamation of character as well.

I agree law enforcement should share info on bad guys.  But a guy that was let go, without being arrested is by all accounts not under arrest.  What right does a police officer have calling employers on a guy that is by all accounts no longer suspect.  It is called Vendetta.  The Cop couldn't get his arrest so the only way to really screw over the person who he thinks is guilty is to call the military.  You wasted your two hours hoping to get a big time bust, and you walked away with nothing to show of your two hours, so your pissed.  What better way to see that your personal form of justice is served is by intruding on this guys profession.  You became judge, jury and executioner with one phone call.    

Way to go!    

The military, BTW,  is not just an employer.  Employers don't have the authority to put you in jail or order you to give your life.  I don't think you've ever been in the military.  If so, you'd know the difference.

If this was directed at me, I was stating "employer" to encompass civil employers not just the military situation we are discussing.

BTW.....I may have less than 10 years commissioned service, but I have been around the block my fair share.  If you need proof please PM me.  There are 10 or so people here that can also vouch for my military career, that know me in "the real world" if more is needed.  I do ask in return for you to prove yourself as well.  Don't ever make an assumption because as the saying goes, "when you assume, you make ass out of YOU and me", and I have no problem being an A-Hole.

You successfully sidetracked my train of thought.  I now no longer care about Flying Pig or that innocent man he tried to screw over.  We will let law scholars debate this further.

Going on the whole "I'm not in the military thing" I will end with, I will be at Carlisle Barracks, PA, next week.  Anyone that would like to meet and have a piece of Pizza at the War College or debate some philosophical issues PM me.  I always love to meet CAPTALKERS in person.

[Flying Pig]

That was some awsome reading.  I hope your meeting goes well.

Let me expand....I am an Expert Witness in the State of Ca.  Ive testified as an expert in many cases for dope, posession, under the influence, sales, possession for sales, and manufacturing.   I have arrested several people just for being lookouts.  No dope on their person, not under the influence, just merely a guy sitting in a chair to the untrained person.  I got a guy 7 years for possession for sales.....and I didnt even have any dope to book into evidence because he flushed it all as we were kicking in the door.  Debate that one.

Stick to whatever it is you do mikey, and Ill stick to being a cop.

[Ned]

[Anyway, If a COP goes to my workplace to inform them that I "Committed NO crime" but merely was "shady" and that gets me fired, or even gets me called in before my boss, the ACLU would have a freaking field day.

I dunno about that.  I've worked with the ACLU from time to time, and they almost always come solidly down on the side of the First Amendment.  Freedom of Speech and all that.

Like the right for someone to publicly state the truth.

Even a cop telling someone else the truth about you.

What you boss chooses to do after hearing a truthful statement about you is entirely up to her (and perhaps company policy and state law.)


Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Johnny Yuma]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

Mikey,

You know full well that the military isn't just another employer. You sign on to a different set of rules when you join and you know that.

[aveighter]

There are a number of active duty or retired military officers that post here on a regular basis.  A careful review of mikeys posts reveals a significant difference in the general intellectual and emotional level of maturity and tone of those contributions.

I have come to suspect that he is not a military officer at all and if he is indeed a member of the American military that he is, in fact, an E-1 assigned to the typing pool at some obscure post connecting to the net via a dial-up modem of early vintage.   

[Nomex Maximus]

. . .
Your passionate but uninformed opinion suggests I violate the neighbor kids' rights when I tell their parents they did something wrong but not so wrong it warrants calling the police.  When I was a cop I also handled some matters in a non-judicial manner.  That's one of the concepts of Community Oriented Policing, not a police state.

Hehehe... one of the most effective street adjustments I ever used was to simply bring the young tikes home to their parents. "Is this your son?" "Yes, officer he is." "Well, I just found him <doing some form of mischief>. Could I have your full name and date of birth for the report?" So much easier to do that than to drag them to jail and have to do all the paperwork... hehehe... those were good times...

[mikeylikey]

There are a number of active duty or retired military officers that post here on a regular basis.  A careful review of mikeys posts reveals a significant difference in the general intellectual and emotional level of maturity and tone of those contributions.

I have come to suspect that he is not a military officer at all and if he is indeed a member of the American military that he is, in fact, an E-1 assigned to the typing pool at some obscure post connecting to the net via a dial-up modem of early vintage.   

Wow.  Did you go through all 1700 posts or so?  Because I am passionate about something, or express my dislike of something you can bash me??  What the crap?  At least I know how to use the spell check button, unlike many other officers on here.  I can put a simple sentence together to unlike many here.  Who the crap are you?  What did I ever do to you?  Did I disagree with an issue you were in favor of?  Did I shoot down one of your ideas?  You must be specific, as I have posted many a reply. 

Please give me specifics where my intellectual and emotional level of maturity is lacking.  Sure I made a few mistakes and got into heated discussions, and then took it to PM when those involved decided to begin the name calling game. 

You are apparently out to get me, so in the future if you want to "call me stupid" take it to PM.  Thank you for demonstrating what a waste you can be.  You know nothing about me.  I am not a stupid person, and I try to think of myself as a very mature person.  Sure I like to kid around on here, but that is here. 

Thanks again for calling me out.  Maybe next time just start a new topic so everyone can bash me.

Finally who are you to be the judge of intellect and emotional maturity?   

[mikeylikey]

aveighter.....after some post searching I found out why you hate me!  You hate me because I was in total disagreement with you over the weight issue and wearing of AF uniforms by FAT people.

Now I get it.......still holding onto that grudge is not healthy.  Let it go already!

Start the New Year off right.  forget and forgive those that have disagreed with you in 2007.  I bet you may be able to sleep better at night!

PEACE

[Gunner C]

There are a number of active duty or retired military officers that post here on a regular basis.  A careful review of mikeys posts reveals a significant difference in the general intellectual and emotional level of maturity and tone of those contributions.

I have come to suspect that he is not a military officer at all and if he is indeed a member of the American military that he is, in fact, an E-1 assigned to the typing pool at some obscure post connecting to the net via a dial-up modem of early vintage.   

Ah yes.  Me thinks the lad doth protest too much.  Typing pool? 

Twinkle twinkle little shield
Keep me off the battle field

(And I LIKE admin/personnel guys!)  :angel:

[Major Lord]

It is amazing how far afield this topic went, isn't it? Mikey, my concern with you ( aside from the fact that I think anonymous posters are chickens) is that you always seem to come down on the most anti-American side of any conversation. Your apparent disrespect for the law and law enforcement is something we see in people who do not hold the law as a sacred and integral aspect of what makes America. On closer review of your posts, I think that you have  sensitive nose for injustice, but little factual knowledge of the law. This is correctable. When you come from your far left position to denounce one of ours as a pipe swinger for the Nazi's, don't be surprised if a few people swing back at you. In fairness, most have been remarkably gentle.

Major Lord

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm gonna try to not make any personal cheap shots, but my usual sarcasm might irritate some.

Flying Pig made a point of notifying the Marine's first sergeant.  IF he wanted to screw with a guy, he could have called the company commander.  He didn't.  He expected that, like good first shirts everywhere, that the NCO would pull the Marine up by his short hairs and advise him of exactly where his present course will take him.  Wall-to-wall counseling it used to be called.

And I have not hesitated to call employers when I see their company vehicles being used to solicit prostitues.  IF the vice squad were to catch them, the vehicles would be impounded, and the company would be out a few hundred dollars plus a lot of lost productivity to get it back.  I have never been accused of violating anyone's rights by giving people a word of warning regarding activity that they should be concerned about.

And police are more than clerks.  Police officers are expected to exercise judgement and avail themselves of any and all resources to keep the public peace and establish order.

And, riveraj... you were not necessarily stopped for being black.  My guess is that at 1am the officer probably could not determine your race until you were stopped.  Frankly, the light conditions make that observation possible at 1 in the afternoon, but not at 1 in the morning.  But at 1 in the morning studies show that 1 out of 4 drivers is drunk.  My standard for stopping a car at 1am was a lot lower than at 1pm just because of that fact.

Drunk drivers kill more people than all of the silly-punk street gangs combined. 

[mikeylikey]

It is amazing how far afield this topic went, isn't it? Mikey, my concern with you ( aside from the fact that I think anonymous posters are chickens) is that you always seem to come down on the most anti-American side of any conversation. Your apparent disrespect for the law and law enforcement is something we see in people who do not hold the law as a sacred and integral aspect of what makes America. On closer review of your posts, I think that you have  sensitive nose for injustice, but little factual knowledge of the law. This is correctable. When you come from your far left position to denounce one of ours as a pipe swinger for the Nazi's, don't be surprised if a few people swing back at you. In fairness, most have been remarkably gentle.

Major Lord

My concern with you sir, is that I made reference to fascist political entities.  I never said Flying Pig was a blah blah blah.......

I totally disagree that anyone has any right to interfere in the personal and private life of anyone without their permission.  Granted if you are hauled off to jail that is a different story, but that Marine was not.  He was never arrested, or charged with a thing.  To call his boss and say "Joe was in a bad neighborhood tonight....." is outside the limits of what police should be doing.  Do you call the employer of everyone you write a traffic citation out on?  Well you should based on what people are posting here. 

So because I don't hold the law up and pray before it, I am UN-American.  The most anyone will get from me will be that I don't violate the law.  (other than a parking ticket....when the meter ran out).

I would characterise myself as a very Patriotic Citizen.  To question policy, practices and laws is a right given to me by our ancestors.  To do so does not make a person Anti-American, in fact it may make them more American.  Would you rather be sheep, or decide your own fate in this country.   I also do not believe I trash talk on this country.  Politics, perhaps.   

As to the comment about anonymous posters being chicken, that was already hashed up in previous topics.  My stance is that until CAPTALk says we have to register our name and location in the Sig, then I will be anonymous.  I do this because of people like you and aveighter.  Not to mention there have been lawsuits brought about because of what other posters said on CAPTALK.  No one needs to be able to hunt me down for expressing my opinions.  I am not an anonymous poster who shows up for one day to trash people.  I have been here for some time, and I think I added to some very good discussions. 

In closing, I don't like you.  Making me out to be an UN-American pipe-swinging leftist was just a tad too far.  I know what I have done for this country and what I continue to do.  Others here who know me outside this forum know me to be the exact opposite of what you say.  I have spent the better part of this decade outside of the states, away from family and friends, sacrificing everything to the military. I would give my life to protect yours even though I don't think I like you.  Would you do the same for me? 

Please if you want to bash me......lets take it to PM. 

[Flying Pig]

Give it up Mikey...your over zealous dislike for law enforcement officers and what we do got the better of you.  Your one of those loud mouth people I deal with daily who took some Crim class and can rattle off exerpts from books but don't have the slightest clue what we do or what it takes to actually put cuffs on someone.  Your babble shows your ignorance.  Even when other law enforcement officers come on and back up what I did, thats not good enough for you.  Because we are over bearing thugs in your mind who go out only to fulfill personal vendettas against people.    Your interpretation of the law is right up there with what I get from High School students at parties when I tell them its over.  They rattle off about Nazi's and their rights.  Trust me,  I know what your rights are. 

You are in no place accusing me of setting someone up.  Look up the word "entrapment".   Thats actually the word we use in big boy police work.   Then get back to me.  Watching a guy solicit crime doesn't fit.   How does an educated guy like yourself draw so many conclusions based off of a 2 hour surveillance condensed into a couple of sentences on a blog?  A couple of sentences that were preceded by the comment that "there is more to the story".  Your immediate reaction was police abuse of power.   Perhaps a "Hey, Im confused.....could you provide some more detail?"   But instead, your reaction was "Law Suit."   You have no idea how many criminals I have let walk away because I wasn't willing to cross the line, and then you have the nerve to suggest that I would "set people up?"  What about the other officers who were on my team?  Any character references about them that you would like me to pass on?   I imagine the teams combined 40+ years of experience in active street narcotics enforcement means nothing.  Notice I said "enforcement".  That means out there putting it to use, daily, on the street, dealing with the consequences if I screw up.  Not sitting at home reading about it.  Do yourself a favor and stick to talking about subjects you know something about.

For now...grab your soda and run back to your TV....CSI-Miami is coming on.  I think the hot blond detective beats a confession out of a guy with a phone book in this episode.

[mikeylikey]

^ Whatever.  I still think you had no right calling that Marines CoC.  That is all I wanted to get across.  You are right, I don't trust Law Enforcement.  I have personally seen first hand LEO abuse their powers.  In fact, I don't have very much confidence in our legal system either.  Granted it is the best thing going in the world right now, but way too many innocent people are sent to prison or executed for crimes they did not commit. 

To that end, I don't watch CSI.  I watch Law and Order, and all of it's spinoffs. 

I will end this here, because I am afraid you or someone else may sue me.

[aveighter]

I take back what I said about mikey.  Upon further reflection I doubt he is an E-1 assigned to the typing pool.

I suspect this is the output of a mid-pubescent underachiever who spends most of the day on a Cheeto littered, coke stained couch railing against a world that has seemingly left him behind. 

The part about the dial-up modem, however, is pretty accurate I think.

[bosshawk]

May I suggest that the Moderator cut this diatribe off?  This whole subject has deteriorated into a name-calling, insulting mess and it doesn't befit the ethics nor morals of our organization.

[mikeylikey]

I take back what I said about mikey.  Upon further reflection I doubt he is an E-1 assigned to the typing pool.

I suspect this is the output of a mid-pubescent underachiever who spends most of the day on a Cheeto littered, coke stained couch railing against a world that has seemingly left him behind. 

The part about the dial-up modem, however, is pretty accurate I think.

                     

Actually I prefer cheesums (or chessy poofs) and I take the coke stained couch to mean coca-cola, not cocaine, so you are right.  I spilled a diet coke on the couch about a week ago.  I still don't hate you aveighter!   

[Major Carrales]

Fellows, Really, this conversation is getting us no where if it goes down to name calling.

The correct address for all the issues here is simple.  We need to be good citizens.  The definition of that as an American is one of freedom and liberty.  To some, that means reporting inequities, to others that means controlling one's internal situation.  They are both correct.  That is the joy of Americanism, personal choice.

It doesn't make you a NAZI to report crime or questionable behavior, such an intervention may actually be beneficial to the individual and the society.  It doesn't really make you unAmerican not to report questionable behavior, however you should report crimes.  The later is important because crime is contrary to a society's development and citizens.  It should be pointed out that "police brutality and abuses" also constitutes a crime.  The argument that one must "mind their own business" would also mean that the police abuses should not be reported as well.  Here is that slipery slope.

Again, it comes down to good citizenship and an understanding of the US Consitution, American Jurisprudence and Human Nature.

[Stonewall]

The name calling and insults are just stupid.

As far as the original argument, I can put myself on both sides of the fence and see valid points from each.  As a police officer working on and around a military base, I deal with this stuff all the time.  I prefer not to get military members in trouble with their chain of command, but sometimes the servicemembers actions don't give us a choice.

Take a DUI for instance.  I can go about it two ways.

1.  Arrest, take him down to Duval County and process him as a civilian.  He'll lose his license, have a record and of course, lose tons of money in the process.  If this young 21 year old sailor had aspirations of doing something along the lines of law enforcement or public safety after his 4 year enlistment, his life is screwed.

2.  Detain him, take him to his command and let them deal with him.  He may lose a stripe, get 45 days restriction with 45 days extra duty and lose some pay.  But chances are, he won't see this experience on his civilian record.

While yes, some would disagree with taking a person to their "employer", in this case, we actually do the servicemember a favor.  IF the dude was being a total butthead or actually said "screw you copper, take me to the county", off to county we'd go.  This is why it pays to cooperate with, be respectful and honest with the officer.

[Pace]

I've seen enough:

• Personal Attacks/Name Calling (I can't believe I'm having to call some of you out on this one)
• Attacking other members for their personal opinions

And as an added bonus:

• Godwin

Game over.

[pixelwonk]

I find it not just a little ironic that this thread about "responsibility" got locked over some extremely irresponsible behavior