Do we have a Responsibility?

[SAR-EMT1]

If I were to observe a Servicemember do something contrary to the UCMJ,  or plain old common sense, do I have a responsibility to alert the folks at the local base as to what occured?
( I know if it was a civil crime I'd alert local PD)

-- Yes, I would probably politely ask them to knock off the booze or whatnot.

I am aware that CAP has no connection to the UCMJ.
And I know that I cant "order" anyone to do anything and wouldnt try.

If the answer is yes or maybe to my question what is the best way one should go about it and how should we identify ourselves to the base personnel?

* Im not trying to be a wannabe Alpha hotel, just curious to continue a train of thought from a recent thread.

[PA Guy]

How many people in CAP have a real knowledge of the UCMJ?  I have no responsibility as a member of CAP to engage in this sort of activity.  If it is something truly offensive to the public good let the civil authorities take care of it.  CAP has enough problems without its members thinking that by virtue of CAP membership they have some sort of responsibility to report service personnel.  Like I said if they are breaking the law notify local law enforcement as a private citizen and butt out of UCMJ violations.

[SAR-EMT1]

A good point PAGuy,

I was just reading the Military Law section of the Reserve Officer Prep Course (AFIADL 00017) and it got me thinking about a post I saw several days ago.
Again, I wasnt trying to overstep my bounds.

( I would reccommend the -17 Course. It isnt CAP specific, but has excellent material  and is a good 'practice course' before one tackles SOS or ACSC.)

[Dragoon]

You have no more responsiblity than the average american civilian.  If you think it's important, let the MPs (or the base commander's office) know about it, very politely.

No reason to "identify yourself" if you choose to report it - your status as a CAP member isn't relevant. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Dragoon:

I agree with you.  A serious crime, a G.I. snatching a purse, for example, you should do what you can.  Minor violations... mild but rowdy intoxication, uniform violations, etc. I suggest you keep your own counsel.

But...

I think it is a different situation entirely if YOU are in an AF officer's uniform and there is some apparent disturbance involving military persons in uniform, when the public is present to witness the event.  All the public will see is military people behaving badly and an officer failing to take action.  In that case, I think a word of caution is indicated, and if that doesn't work, a call to 911.

[Dragoon]

That's a good point.  It would be a tough situation either way.  If you do nothing, it's possible that an onlooker may misunderstand why you did nothing.  Of course, if you do something, you're likely to be completely ignored, which would look equally odd.

But again, if it's a criminal offense (like a fight), your best bet is to call 911.  The fact that it's military guys involved doesn't enter into it.  It's a crime.

I can't think of too many UCMJ offenses that are NOT civil offenses that a CAP member:

1.  Is likely to witness
2.  Are serious enough to have him step in.

Now, if you HAPPEN to witness someone disturbing a public animal, or malingering, or missing movement, I guess you'll have to make the call.   

[Flying Pig]

I would look at it in a manner that completely removes the military aspect from the scenario.  If you were just a person witnessing another person doing something, would it warrant reporting?

If your answer is Yes, I would call the MP's and just report what you saw like you would as a civilian, identify yourself as a civilian who is on base,  and take it from there.  Leave the CAP out of it unless it comes up.  If your off base, call the local police.  If it turns into something, like an arrest or citation it will take care of its self on the military end.

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occassion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occassions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

I imagine you are refering to criminal violations of the UCMJ.  Because the UCMJ is a weird animal and isnt understood by most civilians.  For example, when I was in Infantry School, when we were on liberty, we were ordered to wear our shirts tucked in with a belt. (in civilian clothes).  If not, I guess we were technically inviolation of the UCMJ.  Before we left base, your civilian attire had to be inspected by the Sgt. before you could sign out.  We did have guys "busted" for that!  Oh, the good ol days.

[mikeylikey]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

[Major Lord]

As a CAP member, or as a private citizen, you generally don't have any special reponsibilty to report UCMJ violations. Do you  have a duty to do so? In the words of Jimminy Cricket "let your conscience be your guide". Your post indicates that your question relates to non-criminal behavior, but it could also be interpreted to refer to suspicious behavior. If for instance, AIC Mohammed asked you if you knew where you could purchase an AK and a pound of semtex, and if you really think you will get your 72 virgins in paradise, no violation of law or the UCMJ has taken place. Reportable behavior? You decide......

There are instances in which we as CAP members do have a specific legal duty to report. If we become aware of physical or sexual abuse of a child, for instance, we have a legal duty to act. (more so than anyone else off the street, since we are in a special position of trust in a Youth Organization...for those of you in Alabama, this probably does not apply)

People have also interpreted CAPR 900-3 incorrectly to mean that we can't report or arrest offenders. We have the same rights as private citizens, and members of the military, to make citizens' arrests for any public offense. Use that right wisely. We have a legal duty to aid law enforcement as part of the Posse Comitatus when not on AFAMs.

Should you report AIC snuffy for wearing Captains bars on his uniform when you spot him at Taco Bell? I would leave it alone personally. ( he is probably a CAP member in that case...) It is not the hill you want to die on.

Major Lord

[Major Lord]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

Jeeeezes! Are you really calling a CAP member and a Cop a member of the Gestapo? All righ then Tovarich, I guess you can just march down to the local ACLU office and tell them what this bad man did while protecting your streets and your country. Sweet Mother of Buddha Man, you owe flying pig a serious apology!

Major Lord

[mikeylikey]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

Jeeeezes! Are you really calling a CAP member and a Cop a member of the Gestapo? All righ then Tovarich, I guess you can just march down to the local ACLU office and tell them what this bad man did while protecting your streets and your country. Sweet Mother of Buddha Man, you owe flying pig a serious apology!

Major Lord

Why?  The guy in all legality was innocent, yet was treated as a bad guy after the cop couldn't get his arrest.  And I said Gestapo comes to mind, I never said "FlyingPig" is a blah blah blah.......

[JohnKachenmeister]

I've been a cop for more than 25 years, and I thought Flying Pig showed great judgement and probably did the dude a serious favor.

And he DID commit a crime:

1.  Attempts.  Most states have a general attempt statute that makes the attempt to commit an offense a crime.

2.  Art. 134 UCMJ, Conduct Prejudicial to Good Order and Discipline.

[mikeylikey]

^ But if the "criminal" was not charged or arrested, he is innocent, right?  Everyone is innocent even if they commit a crime, until they are found guilty either by admission, trail by jury, or bench decision. 

If this guy was let go, what right is it for anyone to call his employee?  Until a person is officially charged, where does it say police have to call anyone's employee?

I would be pissed if a cop that wrote me a speeding ticket decided to call my employee and let them know I received a ticket.  It is no business but my own. 

Maybe I am naive of how the law works in this country, but I have watched my fair share of Law and Order. 

However, I don't know how the whole situation went down, I am sure I am missing a huge piece of the puzzle.  One thing I do know, years ago in criminal law at Penn State, I sat through a presentation where the speaker said that "Police Officers are CLERKS, they are to write down, or remember what ever is said or whatever they see so that justice can be handed out.  You have no obligation to speak to a Police Officer for anything, except to give name, date of birth and address.  Anything else should be done through a lawyer, and if a Cop ever says "why do you need a lawyer, are you guilty of something", your response should be "my lawyer will answer that!". 

I have nothing but respect for law enforcement, they risk their lives to protect ordinary citizens.  However, the justice system is skewed to screw over too many innocent people.  Until there is a system in place that does not execute innocent people, or send innocent people to jail, it is unfair to all. 

So, nothing against cops, just the system in which they work.

[Capt Rivera]

I have to agree with Mike.... If you as a cop do not arrest the person, two bad. You arrest him and he is held over night, more then likely his chain of command will know. If he is not arrested, maybe you do him a favor by pointing out his stupidness but alerting his chain of command to your gut feeling you do the person a great injustice. Maybe in this case your correct but are you going to say you have never made a single mistake your whole entire life? [You need to account for when you messed in your pampers, that, i would estimate as a mistake, something you didn't intend to do and something you don't currently do. correct?]

If the person did do what you claim he has no place in the military but he should be convicted somewhere outside of just your mind! Other then that, you probably hurt his carrier, period. That did him no favor and you should NOT feel good about yourself.

I've driven in the wrong neighborhood also. My town is a white town by all respects of that phrase. The last time i was pulled over for driving while black was last thanksgiving night. I made the mistake of WORKING till 1am. So when the officer passed by head on, saw a black person driving alone at 1am, he assumed i would HAVE to be drunk. He pulled a U-turn and confronted me as I was getting out of my car to enter an apt building. Where we passed he was getting off of a off-ramp and could not see me before I saw him. he had probably 30 feet of driving to have been passed me. in that 45 seconds, he determined I was drunk and needed to be stopped/questioned etc. After he realized I was not drunk I had to prove that I  that I was indeed a member of the military as my license plate indicated, that it was my car that I was driving [registration and plate check] then for good measure, lets see if I have any warrants.

Being a cop by virtue does not make you perfect or above the law that you are supposed to enforce. Cops are good at often ONLY doing what they can by their understanding of the law, if a citizen asks for help, [read: they don't want to make a bad arrest] but they are known for going the extra mile if they FEEL someone has done something wrong and FEEL like doing something about it.

You might be the exception to this, but don't expect me to take your word for it. But the exception is far from the rule.

[Gunner C]

I've been a cop for more than 25 years, and I thought Flying Pig showed great judgement and probably did the dude a serious favor.

And he DID commit a crime:

1.  Attempts.  Most states have a general attempt statute that makes the attempt to commit an offense a crime.

2.  Art. 134 UCMJ, Conduct Prejudicial to Good Order and Discipline.

Article 134 (also called the "Everything Else Article") is one of the great things about the UCMJ - it penalizes the stupid.  I doesn't usually get past non-judicial punishment, but it gives the soldier, airman, etc a chance to think about behavior of the past that will:

1.  Get them killed, hurt, put in jail, or otherwise get them in a trick

2.  Teaches that character (doing the right thing even when no one is looking) is better than not getting caught.

I have to agree with you, John.  That cop probably either saved the life of that youngster or kept them from doing something that the youngster would have regretted for years on end.

As an officer (yes, even as a retired officer), I still hold a commission.  If I see someone who is obviously doing wrong, I have a moral and legal responsibility to act.  It may be just informing the unit's commander, it may be calling the police.  Under some circumstances, I still hold arrest authority (tho very narrow circumstances) since my commission doesn't expire.

Should any member of society report law breakers?  Yes!  Are we members of society?  Yes! 

BTW, I've seen secret police (GESTAPO is a German acronymn for Secret State Police).  We have nothing even remotely like that.  If people were less worried about being politically correct (a Soviet term used to keep you from getting in trouble with the secret police), there would be less crime - the ACLU be [darn]ed! 

The military, BTW,  is not just an employer.  Employers don't have the authority to put you in jail or order you to give your life.  I don't think you've ever been in the military.  If so, you'd know the difference.

GC

[Capt Rivera]

The military, BTW,  is not just an employer.  Employers don't have the authority to put you in jail or order you to give your life.  I don't think you've ever been in the military.  If so, you'd know the difference.

Assumption incorrect if your talking about me! I am in the military as my post said [You didn't direct the statement to anyone that I noticed]

Maybe you saved someones life, maybe you ruined it. The person COULD have been lost and asking for directions. As he DID NOT commit a crime, he should NOT be punished. The Officer in question at the time, punished him because he thought he deserved it and he could not punish him under law, therefor other wise wasting his time, the time used in following the car around instead of driving up to him, identifying himself as an officer and seeing if he could be of assistance.

Just the thought of I COULD have just gotten locked up, might be enough to save a soldiers life. If that person was up for a promotion or at the end of an enlistment/commission and about to sign on for more, you PROBABLY ended his carrier, based on an assumption.

If he didn't even have enough "evidence" to detain the individual, or process him for more questioning, he had no business calling anyone at the base. If your not OSI, don't make yourself believe you should function anywhere near what they do.

To agree further with Mike, I would have sued you and I would have one. No matter what your intentions were, you were wrong and misused your authority and position.

[Major Lord]

A person you observe in suspicious circumstances is neither guilty or "innocent". There is a legal presumption of innocence in court, but clearly, you can place people into custody without first having a conviction, so this legal presumption does not extend to the pre-trial phase of criminal justice. . In the circumstances described by flying pig, he clearly had probable cause to detain and interview the suspect. Law Enforcement people routinely share intelligence about suspected criminals, locations, and activities, either formally or informally, and this sharing of information does not require the approval of an ACLU lawyer-sorry. If for instance, there was a man walking around with no clothes on except for a trench coat in front of your children's school, with a set of binoculars and a roll of duct tape, you might argue that no crime had been committed. A railroad policeman rolling by would of course stop and interview this fellow, and pass his "F.I." (field interview) card to the local authorities. No violation of the democrats er, citizens rights has occurred.

Major Lord

[Gunner C]

Assumption incorrect if your talking about me! I am in the military as my post said [You didn't direct the statement to anyone that I noticed]

Nope, wasn't refering to you.

As he DID NOT commit a crime, he should NOT be punished. The Officer in question at the time, punished him because he thought he deserved it and he could not punish him under law, therefor other wise wasting his time, the time used in following the car around instead of driving up to him, identifying himself as an officer and seeing if he could be of assistance.

People don't (statistical zero) just get lost in hooker/drugville.  They go there to score the local industry.  Trust this old senior NCO/officer - this wouldn't be a huge supprise to the squadron/company commander.  He and his first sergeant know who the idiots are.  They're not going to burn someone who's a straight shooter who just screws up once.  But believe me, straight shooters don't end up in those neighborhoods.

Just the thought of I COULD have just gotten locked up, might be enough to save a soldiers life. If that person was up for a promotion or at the end of an enlistment/commission and about to sign on for more, you PROBABLY ended his carrier, based on an assumption.

A policeman's job is not worrying about someone's career.  That soldier/airman, etc should have been worried about their own career.

If he didn't even have enough "evidence" to detain the individual, or process him for more questioning, he had no business calling anyone at the base. If your not OSI, don't make yourself believe you should function anywhere near what they do.

If you are in the military, you don't really understand how it works.  Officers of any service have arrest authority (I've read several idiots their rights as an officer - they didn't think that I had the power to do it, either, and they ended up losing stripes; one ended up making small rocks out of large ones for 181 days), but that wasn't what I was talking about - a police officer has the option of contacting the military authorities if he thinks that is a viable option.  A first sergeant can drive home a point without using the UCMJ.

To agree further with Mike, I would have sued you and I would have one. No matter what your intentions were, you were wrong and misused your authority and position.

I'd buy a ticket to that trial.  You'd not only be laughed out of court, but you'd find yourself under a great deal of military scrutiny.

[Gunner C]

A person you observe in suspicious circumstances is neither guilty or "innocent". There is a legal presumption of innocence in court, but clearly, you can place people into custody without first having a conviction, so this legal presumption does not extend to the pre-trial phase of criminal justice. . In the circumstances described by flying pig, he clearly had probable cause to detain and interview the suspect. Law Enforcement people routinely share intelligence about suspected criminals, locations, and activities, either formally or informally, and this sharing of information does not require the approval of an ACLU lawyer-sorry. If for instance, there was a man walking around with no clothes on except for a trench coat in front of your children's school, with a set of binoculars and a roll of duct tape, you might argue that no crime had been committed. A railroad policeman rolling by would of course stop and interview this fellow, and pass his "F.I." (field interview) card to the local authorities. No violation of the democrats er, citizens rights has occurred.

Major Lord

Well said.  Barracks lawyers never cease to amaze me  I had one smart guy who didn't think that I had the authority as a rear detachment commander to administer UCMJ.  He swore up and down that I was out of line - until it came time to sign the Article 15.  I told him that if he thought that I was overstepping my authority, he could demand trial by court martial.  He accepted it and signed.  I put the paperwork in my desk drawer and told him that if he screwed up again, I'd pull it out and put it in effect.  He became one of the best junior NCOs I had after that.

I hadn't thought of the field interview angle.  But that goes along with what I said above, commanders know who their bad apples are and need to know.  A commander needs to know if theres anyone in their command who isn't trustworthy.

[wuzafuzz]

I have been called a few times on disturbances and found they were military members.  On one occasion I arrested the guy for battery, on the other occasions, I reverted back to my days as a Marine Sgt. and just ripped them a new one for being stupid and cut them loose.  On one incident, I actually elected to call the 1st Sgt and just let him know what was up. That was when an off-duty Marine was cruising a BAD dope and hooker neighborhood.  There was a little more to the story, but fell just short of being able to arrest the guy.  We spent about 2 hours following the guy around watching him try to buy dope from known dealers but he kept getting shut down.  I think the dealers thought he was a cop.  He never even mentioned he was in the military until I found his ID in his wallet.  He had an Intel MOS and I felt someone needed to know about that.  To this day, I think he tossed the dope before we got to him.

So if you did not arrest him, but called the military (his employer) to tell them he was "suspicious" you violated his rights. 

Who are you to do that to a citizen?  Gestapo comes to mind, as does Soviet Russia.  Why don't you worry about busting people and let the system do what it is supposed to do.  How dare you.  I am shocked.  I would have a freaking lawyer on your case in civil court so fast. 

Basically, this guy DID NOTHING WRONG, you followed him (some may say setting him up), interrogated him, let him go, then called his employer.  I would win in court. 

How would you like it if I called your boss and said "your employee has been hanging around shady neighborhoods, and talked to a known prostitute".  I bet you would be investigated.  It is not my place to do that, nor is it yours.

PERHAPS I read that out of context, and you really are a nice guy.

I see nothing wrong with the actions FlyingPig took and I take exception to your claim he violated anyone's rights.  The circumstances described show behavior that could potentially be admitted as evidence of a crime when presented by an expert witness. John Kachenmeister was exactly right when he suggested there may have been other lesser but included offenses.  (Your mileage may vary depending on your state laws.)  However an arrest may not have been worth the bother as compared to other alternatives.  FlyingPig exercised some judgement and took a course of action you happen to disagree with.  That neither makes him worthy of the Gestapo title or any other mud you want to throw at him.  

Your passionate but uninformed opinion suggests I violate the neighbor kids' rights when I tell their parents they did something wrong but not so wrong it warrants calling the police.  When I was a cop I also handled some matters in a non-judicial manner.  That's one of the concepts of Community Oriented Policing, not a police state.