Is 'Day of Infamy' fading from our memories?

Started by Eclipse, December 07, 2007, 08:00:55 PM

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Eclipse

Quote from: Dailyherald
Harry Brozynski has no big plans today.

Years ago, the World War II Navy veteran from Naperville probably would have attended a civic ceremony and likely had lunch or dinner with a large group of military brethren who had spent the day observing the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.

As the number of veterans who survived that war dwindle exponentially, so does a desire to observe the day that propelled the United States into the fray.

Full article: http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=91038

(I must say, there's been no mention of it anywhere I have seen today...)

"That Others May Zoom"

Stonewall

Yeah, I agree.  It's getting to the point where just about every day is a major day in history.  But yes, it is a day that will live in infamy.  I mean, CAP is only 6 days old at this point 66 years ago. (did I do my math right?)

Just like Turkey Day, no one really seemed to remember JFK's assasination.
Serving since 1987.

Eclipse

#2
I was looking the other day at a picture of the original command staff of one of my units.

This was early 1942, so we're talking about charter squadrons here.

4 able-bodied men in the AAF pinks with CAP insignia.  I was trying to imagine what it must have been like - the war effort just starting to crank up, the entire country galvanized to one cause.

And these men, who for whatever reason were not able to serve in the military, accepting responsibility for homeland defense, during a time when there were legitimate attacks against US soil in way never before, or since seen.

There was, and still is, as lot of rhetoric about us being "wartime commanders", especially after 911, but these guys were the real deal, hand down.

"That Others May Zoom"

JAFO78

I for one will never forget this day as one of my teachers in high school, Navy JROTC, was aboard the USS Nevada that morning. LCDR Johnson spent his whole career in the pacific. He was the biggest influence to many of his students, and he is why I am pro military.

May this day be never forgotten.......   :'(
JAFO

Nomex Maximus


FoxNews.com had a banner on the website for a while today, but took it down when pictures of the Mall Shooter became available.




Nomex Tiberius Maximus
2dLT, MS, MO, TMP and MP-T
an inspiration to all cadets
My Theme Song

AC


Terence Maroste      "We're Paratroopers, Lieutenant. We're
Maj, CAP                   supposed to be surrounded."
AEO
SWR-TX-293                  -Captain Richard Winters

Cobra1597

To some extent, this is to be expected. I doubt people remembered the day of the explosion on the USS Maine much after the people who were alive then started to pass on, and other events more pressing into the American mind happened. "Pearl Harbor" was the 1940s generations "USS Maine", if you will (not trying to get into a discussion on whether the USS Maine was really attacked, or whatever, because it is irrelevant, it WAS the central rallying cry of the Spanish-American War, as Pearl Harbor was for the start of WW2).

The generation that lived through Pearl Harbor are dying off. A larger attack on the US (in terms of lives lost) has happened and is more on the American mind, 9/11. We are still fighting that war, and it is being used (properly and improperly) as a central rallying cry.


I'm also not sure that we should constantly be spending entire days remembering these events. It is one thing for us to teach them in school, make sure everyone knows the historical significance (especially in the context of learning from history and not repeating its mistakes), but I doubt the British sit and remember the Battle of Hastings every year. It comes to a point when you are more living in the past than you are living in the present and for the future. As Stonewall said, when it comes down to it, it is getting to the point that every day is a major day in history.

Did anyone remember before 2001, for example, that 9/11/44 was the day allied troops first crossed into Germany on the western front?
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

mikeylikey

Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 09:09:26 PM
I'm also not sure that we should constantly be spending entire days remembering these events. It is one thing for us to teach them in school, make sure everyone knows the historical significance (especially in the context of learning from history and not repeating its mistakes), but I doubt the British sit and remember the Battle of Hastings every year. It comes to a point when you are more living in the past than you are living in the present and for the future. As Stonewall said, when it comes down to it, it is getting to the point that every day is a major day in history.

Actually the British peoples remember more dates of military significance than Americans.  For starters they still observe Armistice Day, and a special day called Remembrance Day.  We in this country have rolled all of our past days into single events.  Veterans day took away Armistice Day.  Hell we don't even celebrate Presidents Birthdays like they did 50 years ago.  We get one day called Presidents day, but yet have a day set aside for MLK. 

Eventually this day will be either rolled into another day, or forgoten altogether. 

Our society is on a slip slope to ruin because History is not being expressed to the younger generations.

In closing I have to say I totally disagree with you in your statement that we should not spend entire days remembering events.  We owe those that came before us our devotion to their sacrifices, hardships and accomplishments.  If we eventually stop remembering, no one will want to do anything, as they will know their sacrifices meant nothing to the future.  So why bother? 

We have an obligation to remember the Second World War, (in fact more should be done).  Not just because of the historical significance, but because there ARE STILL VETERANS FROM THAT CONFLICT ALIVE TODAY.  That period in our history was more dire, more uncertain than today.  To compare that period with today is not fair to those that served and those that are serving now.  Back then, our existence today was uncertain.  Today, our existence is not threatened by terrorists as you would have believe by the media.  If this country wanted to stop all terrorists tomorrow, THEY COULD.  But nuking 1/3 of the planets surface is only a last resort I suppose.

Sorry for such a long and drawn out response, but this is a subject that I feel people do not take seriously enough today!
What's up monkeys?

JohnKachenmeister

When I was just a little soldier, the ENTIRE DAY of Dec. 7th was devoted to showing World War II movies on TV.  Great films, like "Air Force," "The Purple Heart," "Wake Island," and "Bataan."  I'm willing to bet a dollar to a donut that 90 percent of today's cadets have never seen these classics.  "The Purple Heart" is such pure anti-Japanese propaganda that TV has sacrificed it on the altar of the God of Political Correctness.

Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains, and then they wonder why fewer people are going to movies.
Another former CAP officer

Cobra1597

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

Eclipse

Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.

Yes, not sure where this is coming from.  Modern films tend to take a more realistic view of events and portray characters as humans versus "glow-in-the-dark supermen", but I haven't seen anything like you describe above.

"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

Just curious why you guys put so much emphasis on this day. People dont think about Martin L. King day either and nobody seems to make an issue of it. Guess it depends on who you are talking to.

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 07, 2007, 10:41:26 PM
Just curious why you guys put so much emphasis on this day. People dont think about Martin L. King day either and nobody seems to make an issue of it. Guess it depends on who you are talking to.

Umm... apples and oranges.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

Eclipse

Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on December 07, 2007, 11:01:38 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 07, 2007, 10:41:26 PM
Just curious why you guys put so much emphasis on this day. People dont think about Martin L. King day either and nobody seems to make an issue of it. Guess it depends on who you are talking to.

Umm... apples and oranges.

More like apples and oldsmobiles...

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

I pretty much agree with Cobra, however, its hard to argue that there are very many single days that had as great an impact on the US as 12/7/41. 

CAP_truth

My father was a signalman on the U.S.S. California when they attacked on 7-Dec-1941. He had just got off watch and was getting into his rack when the attack began. He survived the war without receiving a scratch.
Cadet CoP
Wilson

star1151

I was actually kind of impressed to see the flags at work at half mast today....

flyguy06

Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on December 07, 2007, 11:01:38 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 07, 2007, 10:41:26 PM
Just curious why you guys put so much emphasis on this day. People dont think about Martin L. King day either and nobody seems to make an issue of it. Guess it depends on who you are talking to.

Umm... apples and oranges.

My point is this is a post abouthow people have forgotten about a certain day in history. My point is that a lot of important days in the history of America are not as emphasised as others. That just goes with time

docspur

It is now 21:26.  I've had a busy day with our "pack n' ship" area here at FedEx Kinko's.  Almost everyone, when filling out their shipping forms asked me what the date was.  My answer was always the same, "Today is a very important date in our Nation's history."  I would say that I received blank looks from this comment at least 90% of the time.

Capt DL Spurlock, Commander
NCR-MO-127 - Trail of Tears Composite Squadron

Group IV Safety Officer
Missouri Wing

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.

"Redacted"

Also, some movie with the uber-leftists Robert Redford and Tom Cruise, I forget the name of it.

"Munich" that depicted the Black September terrorists that attacked the Olympics in 1972 as heroes and ultimately victims of the evil Israeli Mossad.

Even Blackhawk down and United 93, which were sympathetic to Americans, chose to emphasize American battle losses.  I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?
Another former CAP officer

mikeylikey

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2007, 03:25:50 AM
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on December 07, 2007, 11:01:38 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 07, 2007, 10:41:26 PM
Just curious why you guys put so much emphasis on this day. People dont think about Martin L. King day either and nobody seems to make an issue of it. Guess it depends on who you are talking to.

Umm... apples and oranges.

My point is this is a post abouthow people have forgotten about a certain day in history. My point is that a lot of important days in the history of America are not as emphasised as others. That just goes with time

That is because past and current leaders of American Government don't want to offend certain groups, choose sides, or make any kind decision that may hamper their political desires and dreams.  I read an article that said Lincoln's birthday, Washington's birthday once were celebrated, until "Presidents Day" was invented.  I believe it has to do with apeeasing certain groups in this country.  "don't want to tip the boat" mentality often comes up in our Political arena's.
What's up monkeys?

Monty

#21
As alluded to earlier, "Day of Infamy" will pass into history as nothing more than a history mention.

But as also alluded to earlier, there's a LOT of emphasis on the World War 2 History Channel, as it seems like every time I flipped past that channel it was another story about storming this beach or taking that island, etc.

I honestly can't recall ever hearing anybody make any sort of specific comment on Veterans' Day about the American servicemen who died during the War of 1812, or the Mexican American war.  "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" means jack squat to the common John and Jane Q. Public....sadly, just like "a day that will live in infamy" will soon be.

For example, in the rare case we recall the Civil War (generally considered the most deadly conflict), it's normally remembered by direct descendents or otherwise, relegated to the "all the rest who gave their lives" pile when thinking about veterans - can't recall anybody remembering or celebrating the day the Yanks walked in to Richmond; can you?  Folks don't get emotional about Andersonville, or with regard to other conflicts, few stop and think about Fort McHenry...most don't know where Fort Ticonderoga is or what it is....

And this also includes many folks who are "long in the tooth" too, in the event that some folks think the sole reason why "them dang kids" don't know history is because of America's ever-increasing infatuation with "skin deep" exposure to most things of the past.

America (legitimately, in many cases) does much better at remembering when names are put with faces.  When the days of "My Grandpa was at..." pass, I'd expect WWII to be relegated to the same book section as the War of 1812, Civil War, Span/Am War, etc.

I do better than most Americans (even without the history channel) because I am lucky enough to have the documentation, which ties my people to history.  BUT.....the majority of old and young will only be in touch with that which television pipes into their brains.

-Monty

GGGGG Grandson of Robert Montgomery, NC Militia (service did not exceed 6 mos)
GGG Grandson of John C. Montgomery, 41st Al. Vol. Inf. Rgt. Co. G., '62-'65
GGG Grandson of James R. McCormick, 104th Ill. Vol. Inf. Rgt. Co. B. '62-'65
Grandson of Korean War Vet (Name withheld, still alive)
Nephew of Vietnam War Vet (Name withheld, still alive)
Husband of an OIF Vet (Name withheld, still alive)

JCW0312

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2007, 03:25:50 AM
Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on December 07, 2007, 11:01:38 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 07, 2007, 10:41:26 PM
Just curious why you guys put so much emphasis on this day. People dont think about Martin L. King day either and nobody seems to make an issue of it. Guess it depends on who you are talking to.

Umm... apples and oranges.


My point is this is a post abouthow people have forgotten about a certain day in history. My point is that a lot of important days in the history of America are not as emphasised as others. That just goes with time

Well, MLK day is a "holiday", but 07 Dec is not (I guess Veterans day will have to suffice). I see your point though - to too many people, MLK day is just an extra day off work with no reflection given to the reason for it.

Back to topic - I was proud of the military channel today - shows pertaining to 07Dec1941 almost all day. Most of us would expect it from the military channel anyway, but still, kudos to them.
Jon Williams, 2d Lt, CAP
Memphis Belle Memorial Squadron
SER-TN-144

flyguy06

So, I guess this beckons another question I have.

Is it the assumption that MLK day is for a certain group of people in America?

Cobra1597

#24
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 08, 2007, 03:54:06 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.

"Redacted"

Also, some movie with the uber-leftists Robert Redford and Tom Cruise, I forget the name of it.

"Munich" that depicted the Black September terrorists that attacked the Olympics in 1972 as heroes and ultimately victims of the evil Israeli Mossad.

Even Blackhawk down and United 93, which were sympathetic to Americans, chose to emphasize American battle losses.  I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?

As far as I know, that new Cruise and Redford movie depicts a senator as a villain, not a single US G.I. The GIs are depicted as victims of an uncaring government fighting to stay alive, or at least that is what I gather from the previews.

Munich is about Moussad, not US GIs, fail again. Not to mention the fact that the movie most definitely did not depict the terrorist as heroes. Not in the *expletive* least. The movie was by Spielberg, a Jew.

Recognizing US casualties that happened is making GIs villains? I suppose you would prefer we lie, and say no one died. Oh yeah, you didn't seem to notice the dead Somalis on every street corner. If anything emphasizing the emotion regarding the American's dying was to make the point that it is tragic when Americans die. You don't think it is sad when a GI dies? Have you had any family die in war? My cousin, an LTC in the Marines and a Cobra pilot, died in Iraq, I went to a funeral where I was brought to tears, and have two young cousins growing up without a father. It is tragic when a GI dies.

I'm getting the point of saying you are nearing madness.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

Eclipse

Quote from: mikeylikey on December 08, 2007, 04:24:12 AMI read an article that said Lincoln's birthday, Washington's birthday once were celebrated, until "Presidents Day" was invented.  I believe it has to do with apeeasing certain groups in this country.  "don't want to tip the boat" mentality often comes up in our Political arena's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents'_Day_(United_States)

It appears it was as much a situation with businesses as anything else....

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: Active Monty on December 08, 2007, 04:41:12 AM
I honestly can't recall ever hearing anybody make any sort of specific comment on Veterans' Day about the American servicemen who died during the War of 1812, or the Mexican American war.  "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" means jack squat to the common John and Jane Q. Public....sadly, just like "a day that will live in infamy" will soon be.

For example, in the rare case we recall the Civil War (generally considered the most deadly conflict), it's normally remembered by direct descendants or otherwise, relegated to the "all the rest who gave their lives" pile when thinking about veterans - can't recall anybody remembering or celebrating the day the Yanks walked in to Richmond; can you?  Folks don't get emotional about Andersonville, or with regard to other conflicts, few stop and think about Fort McHenry...most don't know where Fort Ticonderoga is or what it is....alive)
From a public consciousness standpoint, WWII still has a lot "going for it".

It was the last "good" war.

Many fighters, some in positions of power in the world (or recently in power) are still alive.

There is plenty of clear movie footage.

We are still dealing with some of the ramifications of the conflict daily.

1812, the civil war, and even WWI do not share these traits, and have been legit history for a couple of decades.

Not saying its right, just that it is....

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: JCW0312 on December 08, 2007, 04:55:42 AM
Well, MLK day is a "holiday", but 07 Dec is not (I guess Veterans day will have to suffice). I see your point though - to too many people, MLK day is just an extra day off work with no reflection given to the reason for it.

MLK day celebrates the man for who he was.

However to "celebrate" 7 Dec, just as "celebrating" Patriot Day would be wrong, these were not bright spots in our history. They shoudl be commemorated, but not celebrated with a day off work, etc.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 08, 2007, 03:54:06 AM
I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?

You will, just give it a little time.

Since we have real-time video every day (unlike WWII), we don't need propaganda films from Hollywood to keep us fired.  These days I think its appropriate to let things cool a bit and get the full story before rolling cameras.

"That Others May Zoom"

mikeylikey

Quote from: Eclipse on December 08, 2007, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: JCW0312 on December 08, 2007, 04:55:42 AM
Well, MLK day is a "holiday", but 07 Dec is not (I guess Veterans day will have to suffice). I see your point though - to too many people, MLK day is just an extra day off work with no reflection given to the reason for it.

MLK day celebrates the man for who he was.

However to "celebrate" 7 Dec, just as "celebrating" Patriot Day would be wrong, these were not bright spots in our history. They should be commemorated, but not celebrated with a day off work, etc.

Although I enjoy the day off from work on MLK Day, How long will this country celebrate that day.  I would rather celebrate the "civil rights remembrance day" than celebrate a day attributed to any one man.  That pretty much says "he did everything for the movement, he is the only one we will remember.  If we celebrate his day, why are we not celebrating anything for the womens suffrage movement?  Some of them are still alive. 

What's up monkeys?

JCW0312

Quote from: mikeylikey on December 08, 2007, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on December 08, 2007, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: JCW0312 on December 08, 2007, 04:55:42 AM
Well, MLK day is a "holiday", but 07 Dec is not (I guess Veterans day will have to suffice). I see your point though - to too many people, MLK day is just an extra day off work with no reflection given to the reason for it.

MLK day celebrates the man for who he was.

However to "celebrate" 7 Dec, just as "celebrating" Patriot Day would be wrong, these were not bright spots in our history. They should be commemorated, but not celebrated with a day off work, etc.

Although I enjoy the day off from work on MLK Day, How long will this country celebrate that day.  I would rather celebrate the "civil rights remembrance day" than celebrate a day attributed to any one man.  That pretty much says "he did everything for the movement, he is the only one we will remember.  If we celebrate his day, why are we not celebrating anything for the womens suffrage movement?  Some of them are still alive. 



I agree. Even within the civil rights movement there were others who were very instrumental in the movement. Why not make the date "civil rights memorial day"?

[Topic Drift]
Jon Williams, 2d Lt, CAP
Memphis Belle Memorial Squadron
SER-TN-144

JCW0312

Quote from: Eclipse on December 08, 2007, 07:36:17 AM
Quote from: JCW0312 on December 08, 2007, 04:55:42 AM
Well, MLK day is a "holiday", but 07 Dec is not (I guess Veterans day will have to suffice). I see your point though - to too many people, MLK day is just an extra day off work with no reflection given to the reason for it.

MLK day celebrates the man for who he was.

However to "celebrate" 7 Dec, just as "celebrating" Patriot Day would be wrong, these were not bright spots in our history. They shoudl be commemorated, but not celebrated with a day off work, etc.

I'm not saying we should celebrate Dec 7 as a holiday. I was just commenting that MLK day is a holiday and people don't even reflect on its reason half the time.
Jon Williams, 2d Lt, CAP
Memphis Belle Memorial Squadron
SER-TN-144

mikeylikey

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2007, 06:58:58 AM
So, I guess this beckons another question I have.

Is it the assumption that MLK day is for a certain group of people in America?

Yes!  The American People.  Who were you thinking?
What's up monkeys?

JCW0312

^The rights protected for any people helps to ensure the rights for all people.
Jon Williams, 2d Lt, CAP
Memphis Belle Memorial Squadron
SER-TN-144

FlyingTerp

I think this topic is drifting and becoming more of a comparison between certain holidays and historic days in our nation's history.

That being said, 12-7 and 9-11 are synonymous in my opinion.  They are days in history that warn us what happens when our guard is down, and when they fade from our memories, events like them are more likely to occur again.

Here's a picture from my trip last year to the Arizona Memorial:



God Bless the fallen and thank you to those that serve...

flyguy06

Quote from: mikeylikey on December 08, 2007, 03:26:25 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 08, 2007, 06:58:58 AM
So, I guess this beckons another question I have.

Is it the assumption that MLK day is for a certain group of people in America?

Yes!  The American People.  Who were you thinking?
Oh, I agree . But you know what most people wil think. Or do you?

Flying Pig

Lets get off the race issue.   Your trying to bait people into an argument.   This thread started with asking about Dec. 7th and suddenly goes to "What about Martin Luther King Day?"  Huh?  If you want that discussion, then post it somewhere else, preferrably another site, and those who are interested can choose to discuss it with you.

Back on topic, where I am, there was almost no mention of Dec 7th.  It was pretty sad.

flyguy06

With all due respect Flying Pig (cause you know you are my boy) its not a race issue at all. I wasnt even going there until you mentioned it. Just because someone mentions the name of an African American does not mean it HAS to be a race issue. Your statement in itself made it a race issue because I honestly wasnt even thinking about that. It is possible to mention the name of a Black person without thinking race.

"Now back to our regularly scheduled program" ;D

Eclipse

Hickam commemorates 66th anniversary of attack on Hickam Field

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123078710



Airmen from the Professional Military Education Center at Hickam Air Force Base, Hawaii, presented a U.S. flag that was flown over Atterbury Memorial Park to each of five survivors and one widow of a survivor of the Dec. 7, 1941, attack on Hickam Field. The ceremony, an annual tradition, was held in the Courtyard of Heroes lobby in the Pacific Air Forces headquarters building. (U.S. Air Force photo/Oscar Hernandez)

"That Others May Zoom"

SAR-EMT1

December Seventh will forever be a day etched on my heart.
Not just for the attack on Pearl Harbor (I had a great uncle there), but also because of something more personal.

Friday December 7, 2007 a friend I grew up with was laid to rest after losing his life in Iraq. His name was Cpl Allen Roberts, USMC
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Eclipse on December 08, 2007, 07:38:40 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 08, 2007, 03:54:06 AM
I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?

You will, just give it a little time.

Since we have real-time video every day (unlike WWII), we don't need propaganda films from Hollywood to keep us fired.  These days I think its appropriate to let things cool a bit and get the full story before rolling cameras.

I wish I could share your optimism.

After 7 December 1941, not only did Hollywood begin cranking out films which glorified service, Hollywood celebrities enlisted to serve.  Of course, there were exceptions. 

Jimmy Stewart did not enlist after Dec. 7th, since he was already serving as an aviation cadet.  Ronald Reagan also avoided the recruiting office, being too busy mobilizing with his National Guard unit.  Reagan, a 1st Lieutenant of Cavalry in the California National Guard was the only Hollywood actor who held a commission on Dec. 7th 1941.

Now, Hollywood makes it a point to denigrate the efforts of G.I.'s and obliquly criticize any effort to prosecute a war against the enemy.  They refuse to demonize the enemy, and cannot make movies that celebrate the sacrifice of service, since they have no frome of reference to the honor of national service.

The USO can't find enough entertainers to visit troops in the field.

Another poster called me a "Madman" for believing this, but I have quit going to movies after Mel Gibson's movie about Vietnam, "We Were Soldiers."
Another former CAP officer

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 08, 2007, 07:17:51 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 08, 2007, 03:54:06 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.

"Redacted"

Also, some movie with the uber-leftists Robert Redford and Tom Cruise, I forget the name of it.

"Munich" that depicted the Black September terrorists that attacked the Olympics in 1972 as heroes and ultimately victims of the evil Israeli Mossad.

Even Blackhawk down and United 93, which were sympathetic to Americans, chose to emphasize American battle losses.  I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?

As far as I know, that new Cruise and Redford movie depicts a senator as a villain, not a single US G.I. The GIs are depicted as victims of an uncaring government fighting to stay alive, or at least that is what I gather from the previews.

Munich is about Moussad, not US GIs, fail again. Not to mention the fact that the movie most definitely did not depict the terrorist as heroes. Not in the *expletive* least. The movie was by Spielberg, a Jew.

Recognizing US casualties that happened is making GIs villains? I suppose you would prefer we lie, and say no one died. Oh yeah, you didn't seem to notice the dead Somalis on every street corner. If anything emphasizing the emotion regarding the American's dying was to make the point that it is tragic when Americans die. You don't think it is sad when a GI dies? Have you had any family die in war? My cousin, an LTC in the Marines and a Cobra pilot, died in Iraq, I went to a funeral where I was brought to tears, and have two young cousins growing up without a father. It is tragic when a GI dies.

I'm getting the point of saying you are nearing madness.

Well, madness you say...

Then I say that you should go to the video store and rent "Wake Island," the first film made during World War II that depicted American troops in battle.  Eventually, we lost Wake Island, just as we lost Mogadishu, but the American Marines were presented in a much more favorable light than the Rangers in Black Hawk Down.  Then watch "Air Force," "30 Seconds Over Tokyo," "Guadalcanal Diary," and "The Purple Heart," and compare them to the garbage Hollywood puts out today.  These movies made during World War II were designed to keep UP the morale on the home front, encourage service, and validate American values. 

Today, Hollywood makes movies designed to scoff at our values, make us consider that the most barbaric enemy that the United States has ever faced may have some good points after all, and to diminish confidence in our leaders, including our military officers.
Another former CAP officer

Cobra1597

#42
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 09, 2007, 12:53:05 PM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 08, 2007, 07:17:51 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 08, 2007, 03:54:06 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.

"Redacted"

Also, some movie with the uber-leftists Robert Redford and Tom Cruise, I forget the name of it.

"Munich" that depicted the Black September terrorists that attacked the Olympics in 1972 as heroes and ultimately victims of the evil Israeli Mossad.

Even Blackhawk down and United 93, which were sympathetic to Americans, chose to emphasize American battle losses.  I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?

As far as I know, that new Cruise and Redford movie depicts a senator as a villain, not a single US G.I. The GIs are depicted as victims of an uncaring government fighting to stay alive, or at least that is what I gather from the previews.

Munich is about Moussad, not US GIs, fail again. Not to mention the fact that the movie most definitely did not depict the terrorist as heroes. Not in the *expletive* least. The movie was by Spielberg, a Jew.

Recognizing US casualties that happened is making GIs villains? I suppose you would prefer we lie, and say no one died. Oh yeah, you didn't seem to notice the dead Somalis on every street corner. If anything emphasizing the emotion regarding the American's dying was to make the point that it is tragic when Americans die. You don't think it is sad when a GI dies? Have you had any family die in war? My cousin, an LTC in the Marines and a Cobra pilot, died in Iraq, I went to a funeral where I was brought to tears, and have two young cousins growing up without a father. It is tragic when a GI dies.

I'm getting the point of saying you are nearing madness.

Well, madness you say...

Then I say that you should go to the video store and rent "Wake Island," the first film made during World War II that depicted American troops in battle.  Eventually, we lost Wake Island, just as we lost Mogadishu, but the American Marines were presented in a much more favorable light than the Rangers in Black Hawk Down.  Then watch "Air Force," "30 Seconds Over Tokyo," "Guadalcanal Diary," and "The Purple Heart," and compare them to the garbage Hollywood puts out today.  These movies made during World War II were designed to keep UP the morale on the home front, encourage service, and validate American values. 

Today, Hollywood makes movies designed to scoff at our values, make us consider that the most barbaric enemy that the United States has ever faced may have some good points after all, and to diminish confidence in our leaders, including our military officers.

Yes, nearing madness. You prefer propaganda to reality. A reality that actually makes one care MORE about GIs, since it makes them out to be human. Black Hawk Down for the vast majority did NOT make the GIs out to be negative, not the least.

You accuse Hollywood of making terrorists into heroes, and GIs into villains. When you can't back up some evil anti-American agenda in Hollywood, you fall back onto not liking that soldiers are actually real people, and not depicted in the style of Westerns and such.

Continue this if you want, but it is plain to me that you just want to hate Hollywood for the sake of hating Hollywood, so I won't be replying anymore.

I leave you with a dancing Yoda.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

BillB

I tend to agree with John that Hollywood no longer presents the US armed forces in a positive light. I taught a Community College course in Film History and Aesthetics for three years and often used the WW II films to show both the propaganda and actuality of the military. For pure propaganda the film North Star was shown to students so they could see how films were used to glorify the Solviet Army and had no other value except the propaganda. Even the film stars said after the war the film was worthless.
But at the same time, The United States has not won a war since 1945. And I know I'll disagree with John on this, but since 9/11 we are still not at war. In a fight yes, but only Congress has the authority under the Constitution to declare war, and there has been no Declaration of War issued. It may be better defines as a "Battle against Terrorism" than a war. But still Hollywood doesn't have any battles to depict US armed forces winning battles.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

RiverAux

I think there are plenty of recent movies that portray the military in a good light.  You're forgetting that Hollywood is about money and they make the movies that they think will bring in the most money.  If they get a great script that makes the military look bad, they'll make it.  If they get a great script that makes the military look good, they'll make that too. 

SARMedTech

While in Chicago recently and walking up the street (in uniform) to catch a cab after a meeting, I was greeted with everything from people wanting to shake my hand, one guy chasing me down to give me cup of coffee he bought at Starbucks, people wanting to take pictures and then there were the others....I serve (and proudly so) on a disaster medical team and if you know what you are looking at, you can tell that I am not military. But as I walked down Halstead in Chicago, I was greeted with choruses of calls of "baby killer" and "murderer."

What has happened in this country is that we are so divided on the war itself and have gotten so caught up in technology that we forget that those are human beings out there. Sons, daughters, husbands, wives, friends. They are human beings trained to do what are often horrible and unthinkable things. But they do so because we ask them to. I used to think "how are we protecting America by fighting in [insert latest war]? Maybe we arent always protecting America directly and of course there is alot about the military that I dont know though through experience with IMERT im getting more knowledge because we use so many military standards, equipment, etc. But someone has to stand up for people that cant stand up for themselves. Maybe its more that we are fighting for American values..freedom, equality, etc. Im surprised often that people dont understand that you can be anti-war and pro-soldier.

I have definitely gained a different perspective on things and am proud to say that I am now actively participating in the GWOT. Granted I wont ever wear a ribbon or medal for it and myself and the members of our team spend alot of money outfitting ourselves, just like in CAP, but when it happens again, we stand ready to go wheels up in 5 hours. Id like to see a National Service Day that honors all Americans who serve their countries through volunteering and putting themselves in harm's way to do it. We must never forget those who have gone before because it is on the trail they blazed that we go forward.

May we never forget.
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

mikeylikey

Quote from: SARMedTech on December 09, 2007, 02:58:06 PM
But as I walked down Halstead in Chicago, I was greeted with choruses of calls of "baby killer" and "murderer."

I am going to climb out on my limb and call BS on that statement.  One thing about the current protesters against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is they protest the war and administration, but I have never seen them protest the Soldier.  Most of them support the soldier, airman etc......and because of Political Correctness have not attacked them (yet).  I have walked past some of the largest anti-war protests in the United States, and never once saw anything but respect for the soldier.  NOW.....I have seen those bastards at funerals that show up and praise the death of the recently deceased.  They are disrespectful [mess] heads that deserve to burn in hell for all eternity.  I wish I knew who they were so that when they eventually die I can show up at their funeral and disrupt their service.  If I ever run into one of them, I don't know if I would be able to control myself.  My future posts may be from prison because I would have murdered them. 

Bastards need to protest the war, but not the person.  Show some god [darn] respect for a person who was braver, and a better citizen.
What's up monkeys?

SARMedTech

Quote from: mikeylikey on December 09, 2007, 03:24:54 PM
Quote from: SARMedTech on December 09, 2007, 02:58:06 PM
But as I walked down Halstead in Chicago, I was greeted with choruses of calls of "baby killer" and "murderer."

I am going to climb out on my limb and call BS on that statement.  One thing about the current protesters against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is they protest the war and administration, but I have never seen them protest the Soldier.  Most of them support the soldier, airman etc......and because of Political Correctness have not attacked them (yet).  I have walked past some of the largest anti-war protests in the United States, and never once saw anything but respect for the soldier.  NOW.....I have seen those bastards at funerals that show up and praise the death of the recently deceased.  They are disrespectful [mess] heads that deserve to burn in hell for all eternity.  I wish I knew who they were so that when they eventually die I can show up at their funeral and disrupt their service.  If I ever run into one of them, I don't know if I would be able to control myself.  My future posts may be from prison because I would have murdered them. 

Bastards need to protest the war, but not the person.  Show some god [darn] respect for a person who was braver, and a better citizen.

So youre saying Im lying about getting that response. That takes some guts. You werent even there so your basing my experience on your own which is a dangerous things to do. If you are saying that I am lying, I demand a public apology. You call me a liar in public you can just as well apologize.
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

Eclipse

#48
There are mis-informed Alpha-Hotels all over, we can find one in every situation, every cause, every political candidate, every single conversation.

Sorry it happened to you, and good on ye' for showing restraint.

"That Others May Zoom"

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 09, 2007, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 09, 2007, 12:53:05 PM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 08, 2007, 07:17:51 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 08, 2007, 03:54:06 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.

"Redacted"

Also, some movie with the uber-leftists Robert Redford and Tom Cruise, I forget the name of it.

"Munich" that depicted the Black September terrorists that attacked the Olympics in 1972 as heroes and ultimately victims of the evil Israeli Mossad.

Even Blackhawk down and United 93, which were sympathetic to Americans, chose to emphasize American battle losses.  I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?

As far as I know, that new Cruise and Redford movie depicts a senator as a villain, not a single US G.I. The GIs are depicted as victims of an uncaring government fighting to stay alive, or at least that is what I gather from the previews.

Munich is about Moussad, not US GIs, fail again. Not to mention the fact that the movie most definitely did not depict the terrorist as heroes. Not in the *expletive* least. The movie was by Spielberg, a Jew.

Recognizing US casualties that happened is making GIs villains? I suppose you would prefer we lie, and say no one died. Oh yeah, you didn't seem to notice the dead Somalis on every street corner. If anything emphasizing the emotion regarding the American's dying was to make the point that it is tragic when Americans die. You don't think it is sad when a GI dies? Have you had any family die in war? My cousin, an LTC in the Marines and a Cobra pilot, died in Iraq, I went to a funeral where I was brought to tears, and have two young cousins growing up without a father. It is tragic when a GI dies.

I'm getting the point of saying you are nearing madness.

Well, madness you say...

Then I say that you should go to the video store and rent "Wake Island," the first film made during World War II that depicted American troops in battle.  Eventually, we lost Wake Island, just as we lost Mogadishu, but the American Marines were presented in a much more favorable light than the Rangers in Black Hawk Down.  Then watch "Air Force," "30 Seconds Over Tokyo," "Guadalcanal Diary," and "The Purple Heart," and compare them to the garbage Hollywood puts out today.  These movies made during World War II were designed to keep UP the morale on the home front, encourage service, and validate American values. 

Today, Hollywood makes movies designed to scoff at our values, make us consider that the most barbaric enemy that the United States has ever faced may have some good points after all, and to diminish confidence in our leaders, including our military officers.

Yes, nearing madness. You prefer propaganda to reality. A reality that actually makes one care MORE about GIs, since it makes them out to be human. Black Hawk Down for the vast majority did NOT make the GIs out to be negative, not the least.

You accuse Hollywood of making terrorists into heroes, and GIs into villains. When you can't back up some evil anti-American agenda in Hollywood, you fall back onto not liking that soldiers are actually real people, and not depicted in the style of Westerns and such.

Continue this if you want, but it is plain to me that you just want to hate Hollywood for the sake of hating Hollywood, so I won't be replying anymore.

I leave you with a dancing Yoda.

Dance Yoda if you want, but you still cannot defend "Redacted."
Another former CAP officer

Cobra1597

#50
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 09, 2007, 05:23:02 PM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 09, 2007, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 09, 2007, 12:53:05 PM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 08, 2007, 07:17:51 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 08, 2007, 03:54:06 AM
Quote from: Cobra1597 on December 07, 2007, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 07, 2007, 10:32:13 PM
Now, Hollywood makes anti-American films depicting the terrorists as heroes and G.I.'s as villains

Name one that has come out in recent years. I cannot think of a SINGLE movie that did that.

I can name a lot of movies that portray terrorists as the villains, and GI's as the heroes, Blackhawk Down, for example.

"Redacted"

Also, some movie with the uber-leftists Robert Redford and Tom Cruise, I forget the name of it.

"Munich" that depicted the Black September terrorists that attacked the Olympics in 1972 as heroes and ultimately victims of the evil Israeli Mossad.

Even Blackhawk down and United 93, which were sympathetic to Americans, chose to emphasize American battle losses.  I'd like to see a movie about the succesful operation to insert SF troops in with the Northern Alliance when they ran the Taliban out of town.  How about a movie about the FBI stopping a terrorist attack (Which has happened several times) or the Battle of Fallujah where the Marines had to fight house-to-house?

As far as I know, that new Cruise and Redford movie depicts a senator as a villain, not a single US G.I. The GIs are depicted as victims of an uncaring government fighting to stay alive, or at least that is what I gather from the previews.

Munich is about Moussad, not US GIs, fail again. Not to mention the fact that the movie most definitely did not depict the terrorist as heroes. Not in the *expletive* least. The movie was by Spielberg, a Jew.

Recognizing US casualties that happened is making GIs villains? I suppose you would prefer we lie, and say no one died. Oh yeah, you didn't seem to notice the dead Somalis on every street corner. If anything emphasizing the emotion regarding the American's dying was to make the point that it is tragic when Americans die. You don't think it is sad when a GI dies? Have you had any family die in war? My cousin, an LTC in the Marines and a Cobra pilot, died in Iraq, I went to a funeral where I was brought to tears, and have two young cousins growing up without a father. It is tragic when a GI dies.

I'm getting the point of saying you are nearing madness.

Well, madness you say...

Then I say that you should go to the video store and rent "Wake Island," the first film made during World War II that depicted American troops in battle.  Eventually, we lost Wake Island, just as we lost Mogadishu, but the American Marines were presented in a much more favorable light than the Rangers in Black Hawk Down.  Then watch "Air Force," "30 Seconds Over Tokyo," "Guadalcanal Diary," and "The Purple Heart," and compare them to the garbage Hollywood puts out today.  These movies made during World War II were designed to keep UP the morale on the home front, encourage service, and validate American values. 

Today, Hollywood makes movies designed to scoff at our values, make us consider that the most barbaric enemy that the United States has ever faced may have some good points after all, and to diminish confidence in our leaders, including our military officers.

Yes, nearing madness. You prefer propaganda to reality. A reality that actually makes one care MORE about GIs, since it makes them out to be human. Black Hawk Down for the vast majority did NOT make the GIs out to be negative, not the least.

You accuse Hollywood of making terrorists into heroes, and GIs into villains. When you can't back up some evil anti-American agenda in Hollywood, you fall back onto not liking that soldiers are actually real people, and not depicted in the style of Westerns and such.

Continue this if you want, but it is plain to me that you just want to hate Hollywood for the sake of hating Hollywood, so I won't be replying anymore.

I leave you with a dancing Yoda.

Dance Yoda if you want, but you still cannot defend "Redacted."

It took you all of this time to come up with one movie that fit the bill? Even though I doubt it portrays terrorists as heroes, so at best depicts just a crime. A film that didn't even ever get a full release in the US?

I'm not converted into believing that all that Hollywood does anymore is make anti-military anti-GI pieces. Nope.
Harrison Ingraham, Capt, CAP
MAWG External Aerospace Education Officer, ADY
Spaatz #1597

mikeylikey

Quote from: SARMedTech on December 09, 2007, 04:34:28 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on December 09, 2007, 03:24:54 PM
Quote from: SARMedTech on December 09, 2007, 02:58:06 PM
But as I walked down Halstead in Chicago, I was greeted with choruses of calls of "baby killer" and "murderer."

I am going to climb out on my limb and call BS on that statement.  One thing about the current protesters against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is they protest the war and administration, but I have never seen them protest the Soldier.  Most of them support the soldier, airman etc......and because of Political Correctness have not attacked them (yet).  I have walked past some of the largest anti-war protests in the United States, and never once saw anything but respect for the soldier.  NOW.....I have seen those bastards at funerals that show up and praise the death of the recently deceased.  They are disrespectful [mess] heads that deserve to burn in hell for all eternity.  I wish I knew who they were so that when they eventually die I can show up at their funeral and disrupt their service.  If I ever run into one of them, I don't know if I would be able to control myself.  My future posts may be from prison because I would have murdered them. 

Bastards need to protest the war, but not the person.  Show some god [darn] respect for a person who was braver, and a better citizen.

So you're saying I'm lying about getting that response. That takes some guts. You weren't even there so your basing my experience on your own which is a dangerous things to do. If you are saying that I am lying, I demand a public apology. You call me a liar in public you can just as well apologize.

I am saying I DON"T Believe you.  Never called you a liar, but if it makes you feel better, I apologize for publicly stating that I don't believe you

Feel better?  PM me if you want to bash further, I won't respond, but at least you won't be seen in public bashing people who don't believe you. 

(Too harsh) sorry, I am just an A-Hole when I read something that I just can't see happening.
What's up monkeys?