For What it's Worth

[Hoser]

The missing plane in AR was found by a ground team AFTER they were given coordinates from an ARCHER image chip that raised the operator's suspiscions. It does work

Hoser

[Tubacap]

First SAR success story that I have heard.  I am pleased!

[Hoser]

The first ARCHER find was in Antlers OK in Sept 06, a combined effort with Missouri and Texas Wings. The same two who imaged the oil spill caused by flooding in Coffeyville KS.

for what it's worth

Hoser

[LtCol Hooligan]

Hoser,
Do you know how the Archer was used when it got the picture?  Was it performing a grid search, some kind of creeping line search or some other method?  The reason why I ask is that I was on a large scale mission last year and we called the Archer from MN in for several days.  The ICs used it to search a line search to a from the most probable area.  The Archer crew told me they would prefer to do small grid searches over high probability areas.  I know CAP was desperate for a win with this system so I am glad it was useful.  I think it can be a good asset and I want to learn more about it so if I ever IC a large scale mission in the future I can plan to use it the best way as possible.

[RiverAux]

The missing plane in AR was found by a ground team AFTER they were given coordinates from an ARCHER image chip that raised the operator's suspiscions. It does work

Hoser

Uh, that is not what Arkansas Wing is reporting... http://www.arwingcap.org/

CAP News Online yesterday:
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3318&year=2007&month=7

Says ARCHER was used and ground and air teams checked out sites provided by ARCHER, but no indication that they found anything based on them either in the release yesterday or what they've got about the find on their web page today.

[floridacyclist]

Current Score:

ARCHER - 2 finds
Human Scanners - 4,000+ finds

Yeah..go ARCHER!

[lordmonar]

I was on my first two SARs in the Mena area.  One of the reasons I joined CAP was to do more SAR.

Beautiful country around Mena...but the mountains run East-West and they create some very interesting weather.  The sectionals actually have the area blocked out with a warning about the dangers of flying near there.

[RiverAux]

Current Score:

ARCHER - 2 finds
Human Scanners - 4,000+ finds

Yeah..go ARCHER!

Actually it is ARCHER 1 find, Human Scanners 4001 finds (see my post above). 

[Hoser]

I was told the ground teams were sent to a location found in an image chip by the  TX Wing operator who requested support from MO Wing ARCHER operators. I don't care what the web site says. I got this from the horse's mouth. PAO just spit out sound bytes anyway.

[Hoser]

I fail to understand why everybody is so willing to condemn ARCHER. I realize there was too much overblown hype, but that doesn't diminish the system. We were told in ARCHER school that the capabilities of the system weren't toally understood and that we'd be writing the book as we went. Just because you weren't selected to play doesn't give you license to poke sticks at something you know little if anything about, and from all the posts from these self appointed remote sensing experts, your "expertise" is based on rumor, myth, innuendo and downright lack of understanding

Hoser

[drcomm]

The missing plane in AR was found by a ground team AFTER they were given coordinates from an ARCHER image chip that raised the operator's suspiscions. It does work

Hoser

Uh, that is not what Arkansas Wing is reporting... http://www.arwingcap.org/

CAP News Online yesterday:
http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3318&year=2007&month=7

Says ARCHER was used and ground and air teams checked out sites provided by ARCHER, but no indication that they found anything based on them either in the release yesterday or what they've got about the find on their web page today.

My son was a part of the ground team that located the aircraft.  The team was from the Starbase Composite Squadron, OK-151 in Tulsa, OK.  From what he and the ground team leader told me, the ARCHER provided several possible targets and they (the ground teams) checked those targets.  The missing aircraft was the second target checked.  He says that the first hit was actually the Rich Mountain VOR building.  I would have been there too but the boss would not permit the day off.  I wish there was a law......

[RiverAux]

My source indicates that the VOR building was the site reported by the ARCHER crew to be an almost perfect match for the missing aircraft. 

Final CAP News Online about it:

http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3325&year=2007&month=7

Note that there wasn't any MO wing participation noted (since somebody suggested it earlier). 

[Hoser]

Missouri Wing WAS contacted by TX Wing looking for ARCHER operators to releive the crews on scene. I was ready to leave until I was notified the airplane had been found.

[Hoser]

Florida cyclist, cheap shot

Observers 65 years of missions, numbering in the thousands
ARCHER 2-3 years of missions maybe 100

Thousands of Mission Observers
160 ish ARCHER Operators
16 Ga8s
500 plus 172, 182, 206, 185 and DH6

put things into context

[A.Member]

Current Score:

ARCHER - 2 finds
Human Scanners - 4,000+ finds

Yeah..go ARCHER!

Florida cyclist, cheap shot

Observers 65 years of missions, numbering in the thousands
ARCHER 2-3 years of missions maybe 100

Thousands of Mission Observers
160 ish ARCHER Operators
16 Ga8s
500 plus 172, 182, 206, 185 and DH6

put things into context

I don't think it's a cheap shot at all. 

It's really time to sit down and have a real honest discsussion about the ROI we're seeing with ARCHER. 

I wasn't aware of any finds that could be tied to ARCHER.  You indicate there may be two.  Was ARCHER truly to credit or could those finds have occured with our "traditional" methods?   

I won't hide my bias on the issue.  It sounds good in a PAO soundbite and looks good on a press release but I clearly think that ARCHER and the purchase of the GA-8 was the single biggest boondoggle in CAP history, behind the NASCAR deal.  Simply put, I don't think the ROI is there with ARCHER.  These funds would be much better used elsewhere.

BTW:  I'm bringing this subject back up because it's being touted on the NHQ homepage.  My guess/hope is that they too are looking for some sort of win out of ARCHER.

[JohnKachenmeister]

ARCHER may have some utility, but I don't think it is worth the cost.  Not only in terms of the cost of the ARCHER system itself, but in the heavy airframe needed to support it.

I think we could have gotten a lot more mileage with tried-and-proven FLIR systems that have been used on police helicopters for years.

[Hoser]

The underlying message I am getting here is that all ARCHER is intended for is SAR. There are many other uses, that other imaging systems, i.e. FLIR are not useful for. Like determining extent of contamination or seismic shifting or spread of disease in agricutural or forestry applications. It also seems reasonable that looking for meth labs with ARCHER is a viable possibility. Taking the blinders off will show that ARCHER is more useful than you give it credit for. You should be thinking of ways to make it useful instead of poking sticks at it. The money has been spent, why not make it work, even if it is outside your paradigm of useful technologies.

Hoser

[Hoser]

LtCol Hooligan, ARCHER does not rely on the classical grid or creeping line expanding square methodology, though it can. The trac allows for grids to be set up on any heading to take advantage of the prevailing winds,terrain etc and area adjusted on what needs searched, time in box etc. When working with ARCHER the mission planner should allow the operators to plan the "grids" because of it's ability to set up the box on any heading. Until mission planners understand how that works the operators and pilots need to make those calls. We have found that the search altitude of 2500 AGL is not engraved in stone as that can vary based on the mission. An environmental mission's needs will vary from the classical "looking for the wadded up Bonanza" mission. In Coffeyville KS we flew at 5000 AGL on reccomendation of ATG and the manufacturer and it did two things, cut time in the box and for the purposes of the mission didn't affect the data collection. I highly recommend that ICs AOBDs sit down with ARCHER crews and discuss the unique capabilities to understand better how to integrate it into mission planning


Mark Anderson, Capt.
ARCHER Operator
Missouri Wing