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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Grooming Standards
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Yellowstone 2015
Newbie

Posts: 2

« on: August 11, 2017, 12:09:19 PM »

Just wanting to know how other squadrons consider peach fuzz on a 13 yo male, going into the 7th grade, as it relates to having a beard and requiring a cadet to shave?  The language in 39-1 regarding beards is clear, they aren't permitted. However, the argument could be made that peach fuzz (light, soft, fine, facial hair) is not considered a beard.  The cadet with the peach fuzz was originally told he would get a 341 if he did not shave, then the following week was told he would not promote if he did not shave.  He was further told if he continued to not shave his membership could be jeopardized.  This is an active cadet, comes to every weekly meeting, participates in just about squadron activity available including multiple squadron fundraising events, is currently a member of the color guard, and is preparing to promote to Cadet Staff Sergeant.  The peach fuzz on his face is only visible in certain lights and/or if you are in his face looking at his face.  He has darker hair on his upper lip that is within grooming standards.  Parent(s) support all grooming standards, including a clean shaven face, high & tight haircut, but does not feel the presence of peach fuzz is enough to rise to the level of having a beard thereby shaving.  There are other factors the parent is considering as well that the command staff (whether kids or adults) are not considering.  Thoughts?
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,690
Unit: Earth

« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2017, 12:22:38 PM »

I think this question would best be left to your chain of command, which I believe there is a SM from ID-073 on here.

For me, ignore it.

What is a 341?
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xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 499
Unit: IL-189

« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2017, 12:39:34 PM »

It's a "excellence/discrepancy" form used primarily at USAF Basic Training and Tech School...no idea why they'd be using one though...never heard of that


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dwb
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,303

« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2017, 01:05:34 PM »

"A beard is the collection of hair that grows on the chin and cheeks of humans and some non-human animals." -- Wikipedia

I wouldn't terminate anyone's membership over it, but I think there's a whole lot of unnecessary nitpicking going on here.
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,139

« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2017, 01:23:02 PM »

It's a "excellence/discrepancy" form used primarily at USAF Basic Training and Tech School...no idea why they'd be using one though...never heard of that


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A number of units use it. The issue I've seen with it is the first part "excellence" is forgotten and it is only used for 'discrepancies' or You Messed Up tracking.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,830

« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2017, 01:41:22 PM »

It's a "excellence/discrepancy" form used primarily at USAF Basic Training and Tech School...no idea why they'd be using one though...never heard of that


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A number of units use it. The issue I've seen with it is the first part "excellence" is forgotten and it is only used for 'discrepancies' or You Messed Up tracking.

+1

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/aetc/form/aetc341/aetc341.pdf

The 341 is used in USAF BMT to document issues back to the Airman's MTI.
Airmen are required to have at least two, filled out, on their person at all times.

It's also wholly inappropriate for CAP use, and a vector for abuse. There is no specific
training, guidance, or follow-on provided by CAP in regards to how it's used, military
intensity, or what constitutes an infraction that is 341-worthy.  MTIs are highly trained
mentors with direct personal experience using them from both sides of the shirt. CAP Cadet
NCOs and officers are not.

Cadets love to "pull the tab", but as arajca mentions, rarely as an "atta boy".  It's been requested
over the years at encampments I've been involved with, always to a resounding "no".

There are already approved Forms to be used when you have a disciplinary issue with a cadet,
namely the Form 50.

In this case, the appropriate, real-world response would start with a senior member directing
his line staff to remind the cadet of the proper appearance - not a discussion, a directive. 

If you allow yourself to get involved in a color / micrometer discussion, you're already done.
It's either in reg or it's not.

Period.

From there, if the change isn't made, a discussion which involves the parents, and after that an F50.

If an escalation like that is still ignored over something as silly as shaving, you have other,
more serious, issues with this cadet that need to be addressed.

Arguments about "too young", can't see it, etc., are irrelevant if it's been decided by the CC
that he's out of reg, because that opens the door to the "next thing" he doesn't want to do.

Cadets are also kids, shaving when you're young can be scary, especially if no one shows you how
or there's  cultural back pressure on their appearance, so treat it with the sensitivity it deserves,
but don't look the other way if it's an issue.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 499
Unit: IL-189

« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 01:44:27 PM »

That's what I was thinking.  It was always used as an intimidation tool in my experience. 


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1st Lt Thompson
Seasoned Member

Posts: 349
Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 05:02:19 PM »

WIWAC we had to have two, folded a certain way, filled out and in the left breast pocket of our bdu's/blues. Never saw it in any regs, just "the way we've always done it." In the five years I was a Cadet, I only recall one person getting one pulled for a discrepancy, usually they were pulled for going above and beyond, and held until the Cadet's next review board.

As far as the peach fuzz, it sounds like it shouldn't be an issue, but then I'm not your CC. If the CC says it violates regs, it violates regs. If you don't agree, take it up the chain to the Group CC, not CapTalk.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,973

« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 05:24:58 PM »

Back in the day, 341s were only used at Basic Encampments, in my experience.

As to your original question, I'd leave the cadet as he is for now; if the "beard" starts getting more noticeable while he's still so young, it might be a good idea to include a parent in the shaving discussion.
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 658
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 06:25:16 PM »

Yellowstone 2015:

By any chance, are YOU the cadet with the "peach fuzz" issue? I ask because you seem to have a lot of details about what has happened, and about who has said what to whom. If you are that cadet, then it seems the matter is in the right hands at your unit. Give them the opportunity to resolve it with you. (Tip - electric shavers are easy to use, run almost zero risk of cutting skin. You can probably find somebody to show you how to use one if that is your concern).

If you are NOT that cadet, then why are you involved in the matter to this extent? While you should always be loyal and sympathetic to your fellow cadets, you need to be concentrating on your CAP progression, not becoming a "barracks lawyer" for somebody else. Again, the matter is in the hands of the people who need to deal with it. Bringing it to a nation-wide forum to ask for anonymous opinions does the local commanders a great disservice and does not afford them their due respect, wouldn't you agree?
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Jester
Forum Regular

Posts: 195

« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 11:28:56 PM »

I've seen it, but I haven't seen it to the point I need to correct it. If it's peach fuzz of actual bulk it's time to have the talk. If I can only see it at certain angles at relatively close range, I have a zillion other things to spend my time on.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Grooming Standards
 


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