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zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« on: July 22, 2017, 07:31:05 AM »

Can CAP members deploy to another state if there is a disaster to help out?
If so, how is that done, by calling the local squadron and offering help?

Quote
"Being deployed for a certain amount of time means having to supply gear (to sleep on because) when they get there, they may be sleeping on a concrete floor, or in an gym or a National Guard facility." http://thesouthern.com/news/local/illinois-civil-air-patrol-squadron-assists-fema-with-disaster-relief/article_bc65a194-9427-52f2-a1cd-3faf74373f16.html
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 08:36:16 AM »

Are you a member?
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etodd
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Posts: 765

« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 03:47:20 PM »

Can CAP members deploy to another state if there is a disaster to help out?


Have you taken any of the FEMA ICS courses yet?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but you really do not just 'show up to help' at an incident. If a WING cannot cover it and needs help, they will contact National, who would then mobilize another Wing, who would then mobilize Squadrons who could help. If its your Squadron, you would be given an assignment. You would 'then' show up, check in, and be assigned a supervisor.

At least thats my interpretation .....

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dwb
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Posts: 1,303

« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 05:15:25 PM »

Yes, CAP missions can cross state lines. No, you don't just show up. You are tasked by your chain of command.
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CAP9907
Recruit

Posts: 19
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 11:01:46 AM »

Do not self-deploy... that is right out of 60-3, sec. 1-17


Can CAP members deploy to another state if there is a disaster to help out?
If so, how is that done, by calling the local squadron and offering help?

Quote
"Being deployed for a certain amount of time means having to supply gear (to sleep on because) when they get there, they may be sleeping on a concrete floor, or in an gym or a National Guard facility." http://thesouthern.com/news/local/illinois-civil-air-patrol-squadron-assists-fema-with-disaster-relief/article_bc65a194-9427-52f2-a1cd-3faf74373f16.html
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LTC Don
Seasoned Member

Posts: 354
Unit: MER-NC-143

JoCo CAP
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 06:00:07 PM »

"The way it's supposed to work is".........

CAP has routinely traveled across state lines to help neighbor wings when requested.  This is nothing new.  While a lot of work is still needed, MER has been a 'no borders' region for several years, but state to state differences in procedure and state laws still pose challenges, and frankly, not enough is being done to develop training programs to overcome those challenges.

What should be happening though, to help bring CAP into the real world, is CAP resources should all be typed, and should be listed with the state emergency management agencies and thus listed under EMAC as a deployable resource --

https://www.emacweb.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=155&Itemid=271

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Management_Assistance_Compact

https://www.fema.gov/pdf/emergency/nrf/EMACoverviewForNRF.pdf

There are a >lot< of reasons CAP should be on board with the EMAC process, as someone or anyone from a hurricane prone state can attest.
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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 06:06:22 PM »

Can CAP members deploy to another state if there is a disaster to help out?


Have you taken any of the FEMA ICS courses yet?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but you really do not just 'show up to help' at an incident. If a WING cannot cover it and needs help, they will contact National, who would then mobilize another Wing, who would then mobilize Squadrons who could help. If its your Squadron, you would be given an assignment. You would 'then' show up, check in, and be assigned a supervisor.

At least thats my interpretation .....

The CGAUX operates in a similar manner, as I learnt from the ICS courses.

"Just showing up" is a big-time no-no.

All the 17 years I was in CAP it was my understanding that Wings were tied to states for administrative purposes only and not restricted in terms of operations, like State Guards/State Defence Forces are (and even they can help out another State if their Governors concur on it), and the Army/Air NG on SAD mostly are. 
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Storm Chaser
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Posts: 2,676

« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 12:56:45 PM »

Any response from members of one wing to assist in an incident in another wing needs to be coordinated through their wing. Members should not be reaching out to other wings on their own.
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2017, 01:54:29 AM »

To summarize,
1. Yes, happens all the time
2. Wait for them to call you
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
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AlphaSigOU
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2017, 10:04:02 AM »

Shortly after I rejoined CAP in 2005, there was a big spin-up for CAP ES-qualified personnel in the aftermath of hurricanes Katrina and Rita in Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi Wings. (For the record, I was a slick-sleeve, non-qual SMWOG at the time, so I couldn't go.) Then one picture from the mission base was published showing a guy sporting a CAP-USAF patch and cloth name patch ('Oh, the horror!!!!' sez the joyless uniform Nazis) that turned out he self-deployed without OK from his wing king. There was a big donnybrook behind the scenes, and new regulations about self-deployment were published.


Unfortunately, there are some people out there that think that they are a 'go team' 'ready on call' (with apologies to the Tar River Composite Squadron) and pack up their RV full of gear and commo equipment to haul to mission base... "I didn't get the instruction not to deploy..."
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2017, 10:35:52 AM »

Unfortunately, there are some people out there that think that they are a 'go team' 'ready on call' (with apologies to the Tar River Composite Squadron) and pack up their RV full of gear and commo equipment to haul to mission base... "I didn't get the instruction not to deploy..."

No offense taken.  We're ready on CALL, not ready to go wherever and whenever we feel like going.
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William Hess, Maj, CAP
Tar River Actual
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2017, 09:49:37 PM »

Here's the big question: knowing when NOT to deploy, coupled with knowing when to withdraw your people because the mission doesn't require or fit with the volunteer nature and charter of CAP.

Case in point: don't over commit your Wing/teams/aircrews to a 'disaster' which, while Federally declared and/or very serious, has little or no apparent role for volunteer troops with, lets be charitable and say "niche" levels of training, and for tasks where they may be pressed into service on tasks with equipment they're not trained for. Examples: chainsaw work, technical or high angle rescue, swift water rescue, etc. The gut response to go help needs to be tempered with reality based on what we've trained for and can safely help with.

We're working through that now in my Wing, trying to write our CONOPS and MOAs, going forward, to make sure that we're meeting real agreed-to customer needs vice deploying on a knee jerk response which puts our volunteers at risk.

Shout out: in 1993, CAP members from 32 different Wings came to our aid when I was a unit CO in St. Louis, for our floods. They came in an organized manner, on request, to execute a plan, and deployed people who met national standards (thank you, COL Emmett Williams, for your leadership back then... you are missed).


V/r
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PS thanks to you lurker whoever you are who posted the JAN17 tornado chainsaw pics. Wow. We're working on it. Sigh...


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CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2017, 07:11:07 PM »

^^^This. :clap:

As a former CAP Safety Officer, having CAP personnel "impressed" into tasks which they are not trained for is a safety disaster waiting to happen.
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2017, 08:59:45 PM »

To summarize,
1. Yes, happens all the time
2. Wait for them to call you

Considering that there are qualified CAP members that are not being called for Harvey, should they contact organizations such as the Salvation Army or Cajun Navy? I mean, if CAP is not calling them, should't they just go with another organization?

For example should a CAP RN nurse respond to the call of help by the Red Cross and deploy with the Red Cross, or wait around for a call from CAP?

What is your opinion, please?
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JoeTomasone
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Posts: 1,657

« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2017, 09:31:15 PM »

A few points to remember:

In most large scale disasters like this, those who were affected directly are largely out of play due to the greater priorities of their own lives and property.   The rest of the Wing will be the first assets called in.  When those assets are exhausted or need relief, the Region will coordinate response from other Wings - both in and out of the Region.   Normally, this will spread outward from the affected area for obvious reasons. 

If you are in OKWG, you might get a call.

If you are in NYWG, don't hold your breath.

And - let's not forget - you're going to get that call based on the need for personnel with your qualifications - which means that you might get a call and your buddy doesn't - or vice versa.

It is natural to want to help, but there is actually a limit to how many people can be put to use at any given time, and for CAP's purposes, as has already been stated, that time is not here yet.   TXWG will make any needs they have known as soon as they have them.

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zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2017, 10:01:01 PM »

And - let's not forget - you're going to get that call based on the need for personnel with your qualifications - which means that you might get a call and your buddy doesn't - or vice versa.


You did not respond to my question. There are long time CAP members that are RN nurses, etc. CAP's position is "Don't call us, we'll call you." Considering many organizations are saying they are desperate for nurses, retired EMT, etc, shouldn't these CAP members just go to Texas with the Red Cross instead of waiting for a call from CAP that may never come? 
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SarDragon
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2017, 10:10:52 PM »

And - let's not forget - you're going to get that call based on the need for personnel with your qualifications - which means that you might get a call and your buddy doesn't - or vice versa.


You did not respond to my question. There are long time CAP members that are RN nurses, etc. CAP's position is "Don't call us, we'll call you." Considering many organizations are saying they are desperate for nurses, retired EMT, etc, shouldn't these CAP members just go to Texas with the Red Cross instead of waiting for a call from CAP that may never come?

Yes, they can, but NOT as representatives of, nor with any connection to CAP.
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Dave Bowles
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Alaric
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Posts: 732

« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2017, 10:11:17 PM »

To summarize,
1. Yes, happens all the time
2. Wait for them to call you

Considering that there are qualified CAP members that are not being called for Harvey, should they contact organizations such as the Salvation Army or Cajun Navy? I mean, if CAP is not calling them, should't they just go with another organization?

For example should a CAP RN nurse respond to the call of help by the Red Cross and deploy with the Red Cross, or wait around for a call from CAP?

What is your opinion, please?

I can tell you as a Red Cross volunteer that you just don't call them and deploy, there is required training and background checks.  Other than that, if you're not happy with the way CAP is doing things then you should always feel free to join/participate with other organization
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Fubar
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Posts: 610

« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2017, 02:12:07 AM »

The Red Cross is always looking for qualified volunteers who are fully ARC trained and deployable. That means join now if you want to respond to next year's hurricane. But they will take you and they typically will bring people in from all over the country who fill the identified needs. I quick check of google news shows articles about responders from the east, west, and midwest. Apparently no state is too far to grab up qualified people.

What the Red Cross tries to avoid is the person (even a RN) who shows up at a shelter and says I'm here to help. While the ARC does have a program in place to handle walk-in volunteers, it's typically a limited role and they'll push you to become a full member so you're ready for the next disaster.

I'd say based on CAP's response to pretty much every natural disaster since Katrina, if you're looking to be a boots on the ground volunteer, CAP isn't it. We don't train for it, plan for it, fund it, or get invited to do it. It looks like CAP usually ends up with photo missions, which probably puts a premium on pilots but if you don't have wings then you probably won't be brought in.

Also keep in mind the Red Cross does far more than CAP even hints at during a disaster. Feeding folks, sheltering folks, getting folks back on their feet, and all the infrastructure that comes with that (finance people, comms/IT people, drivers, cooks, you name it). So they do needs lots of people (which increases your chance of deployment). I know folks who've been sent on a disaster for three weeks, come home for two, and go right back out again for another three.

Lastly, the grass isn't always greener. The ARC has its own issues and problems, but at least one of them isn't lack of opportunity.
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Slim
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Posts: 552

« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2017, 05:13:52 AM »

Aside from the post-Katrina deployment of teams from NER and GLR that we all know about...

I know that GLR deployed people to New Jersey post Sandy.  I know my wing sent a couple air crews, and we had an IC, AOBD and GOBD from my wing running the mission out there for a few days to relieve the NER team.

So, it can-and does-happen, but not without proper coordination among wings, regions, the NOC and probably AFNorth/1st AF at some point.
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Slim
Live2Learn
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Posts: 420

« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2017, 04:49:06 PM »

In a former life I participated on several 'disaster' events as an individual resource.  The Incident Management Teams really weren't interested in walkins.  Too many unknowns, too many risks (both to the eager volunteer AND to other relief personnel AND to the public) should an untrained eager walkin make a poor decision or place themselves in a situation where THEY needed rescued.

By all means volunteer!  But get trained up and connected with a DR/Rescue organization whose mission aligns with your desires to serve before you jump in and likely siphon away critical resources that attend to your needs rather than to the actual victims.  Be ready for the long haul, with boring meetings and lotsa training to prepare you for the prime time event if, when it shows up.
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zippy
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2017, 09:41:06 PM »

I can tell you as a Red Cross volunteer that you just don't call them and deploy, there is required training and background checks.

The Red Cross is granting waivers for licensed health care professionals. I was told it is possible for an RN with no links to the Red Cross to go from CA to TX in less than a week.
 For details see this link http://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/lp/hurricane-harvey-health-professionals
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JoeTomasone
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Posts: 1,657

« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2017, 08:04:32 AM »

With a disaster of this magnitude, some of the "normal" rules will need to be bent or broken.   
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arajca
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Posts: 4,139

« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2017, 06:23:20 PM »

Well, Colorado Wing has been tasked for support to Texas, We're sending 4 aircrews and planes for at least 4 days. May involve more as the incident progresses.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2017, 09:23:53 PM »

Looks like requests for resources are starting to trickle in all over.

The sheer size of the DA may mandate a lot more resources.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 11:14:42 PM »

Looks like requests for resources are starting to trickle in all over.

The sheer size of the DA may mandate a lot more resources.


Yep, and so far it's AP crews. Good thing it's on our agenda. Bad thing that we don't have any currently.
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walter1975
Recruit

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Unit: MER-VA-084

« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2017, 11:20:04 AM »

In another life, I was an emergency manager for a state agency, and managed responses to 14 Presidentially declared disasters.  There are two things any emergency manager hates to see show up: (1) unsolicited volunteers and (2) unsolicited donations.  Volunteers first - other replies have addressed the problems about liability, not knowing what the training standards are, etc.  Those are all valid.  What has not been mentioned is that self-dispatched volunteers are resource consumers.  You have to find them a place to sleep, food, often specialized equipment they need to do their job but they did not bring, and someone to guide them in the wilderness your disaster site has become.  I remember reading about a team of four EMT students who responded to the World Trade Center from six states away two days after the event, not certified, no equipment or medical supplies, no turnout gear, no food, and no idea of the geography of New York city.  The coverage in their school's paper highlighted that the New York EMS system had to find them a firehouse to bunk and mess in, issue basic EMS gear, assign a guide, and try to figure out what to do with them.  And everyone at the school thought they were heroes.  They became a textbook example for our training for our 14 state EMS task forces.

And I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about typed resources.  If you tell me you have a Type 3 of a specific resource, and your people are trained and credentialed to national Position Task Book standards, then I know what you have and what I can use it for.  If you tell me something else, then I have to play 20 questions ... 

Donations second - people donate ... single cans of food, some of which may be culturally inappropriate, expired medicines, broken televisions (I assume so that disaster victims can learn television repair while in the shelter), dirty clothing (yes, I think I would rather go commando than wear someone's soiled Y fronts), winter clothing in Florida in the summer, etc.  When your local food drive finishes and happily loads the results on a truck, someone at the receiving end has to sort through all that and try to figure out how to package it in a way that it provides the victims a balanced meal.  Donations in big event consume resources to receive, arrange for warehouse to store, sort, issue, and eventually dispose of donations.  Give two things: money to a reputable disaster response/recovery organization that is working in the area (National VOAD agencies are a good start) so that specific needs can be addressed, or give pallets or tractor trailer loads of a specific requested supply. 
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JoeTomasone
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Posts: 1,657

« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2017, 11:54:46 AM »

Then there's the unsolicited volunteers who become victims themselves and require resources to rescue or recover them... Happening in TX already. 
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Brad
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« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2017, 12:58:24 AM »

...someone at the receiving end has to sort through all that and try to figure out how to package it in a way that it provides the victims a balanced meal.  Donations in big event consume resources to receive, arrange for warehouse to store, sort, issue, and eventually dispose of donations...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-disaster-relief-brings-anything-but-relief/
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Brad Lee
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CAP9907
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« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2017, 03:25:21 AM »

...someone at the receiving end has to sort through all that and try to figure out how to package it in a way that it provides the victims a balanced meal.  Donations in big event consume resources to receive, arrange for warehouse to store, sort, issue, and eventually dispose of donations...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-disaster-relief-brings-anything-but-relief/


Indeed... we have local FD's "responding" to TX with pickup trucks full of random donated items. And of course they think that they are going to be welcomed as heros and put right to work. They may not realize that unsolicited random volunteer firefighters do not fit into the ICS format and they are now a liability: they need to be housed and fed, etc, drawing on local resources. That is in addition to the random truckloads of citizen-donated items that they have packed up, which may or not be helpful to the relief effort. This is a good example of why we do not self deploy or just 'show up' to help.

Just my opinion, YMMV
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2017, 02:20:02 AM »

I have experienced the random "go teams" and volunteers showing up to "help out" without any clear role. Most notably, I had them flying in during an on-airport plane crash, coming from literally 2000 miles away. We didn't want to be unkind, didn't want to burn any bridges. So...the ICS chart was stretched to include a "Host Division."

Arriving counterparts from elsewhere, plus political figures and bigwigs, were shuffled over to Host Division which was staffed by police, fire and airport PR plus an airport bus and driver. They got a basic scene briefing, met the Unified Command ICs, were fed at the Red Cross kitchen, given their ball caps and coffee mugs, then told "We'd be happy to take you to your hotel now and pick you up for your flight home."

Easy peasy, lemon squeezey. We activated Host Division for every major incident following that and I think they still do it, over 25 years since it was invented.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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BHartman007
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Ellington Composite Squadron
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2017, 01:28:13 PM »

I've been working at the CAP ICP in Houston for Harvey response all week. Off the top of my head we've had aircrews from North Dakota, Colorado, Michigan, Kentucky, Arkansas, Missouri, Louisiana..and I feel like I'm leaving someone out.
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« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2017, 09:14:16 AM »

The Red Cross is granting waivers for licensed health care professionals. I was told it is possible for an RN with no links to the Red Cross to go from CA to TX in less than a week.
 For details see this link http://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/lp/hurricane-harvey-health-professionals

Are you a nurse?
If so, CAP is probably not the best place for you to volunteer your nursing skills.
CAP is the Civil AIR Patrol ... FEMA and DoD keep us around for the airplanes.
In a week there will be 100+ CAP planes flying missions in FL, GA, TX  and... maybe other states.
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