"U.S. Civil Air Patrol" too big?

[RiverAux]

Put those three words together in that order and CAP owns all rights.  I suppose that someone might be able to get away with using Civil Patrol of the Air as the name of their organization, but thats about it. 

[SJFedor]

they own Civil Air Patrol, not US Civil Air Patrol. Otherwise, why are we designating ourselves as the US CAP? Because there's others, and I'm sure CAP isn't sending THEM C&D orders.

The argument could easily be made that the USC says they own the rights to "Civil Air Patrol", not "US Civil Air Patrol" It's a totally different name.

[Eclipse]

Put those three words together in that order and CAP owns all rights.  I suppose that someone might be able to get away with using Civil Patrol of the Air as the name of their organization, but thats about it. 

As I said, would take a court to decide, and not worth it, though CAP >would< have to show damages in order to actually recieve an award, and I'm not sure how much "damage"  is caused when a not-for-profit makes no profit and another company provides its members a better service (i.e. faster / cheaper).

Also, I believe that in order to actually protect the name as an entity, it would have to be a registered trademark, as in "Civil Air Patrol^TM", anyone know if it is?  Can it be, considering this is not a business (though it is a corporation)?

Why NHQ doesn't just partner with these guys is beyond me.  It has to be about the money, because its sure not about the service.

[RiverAux]

Imagine that someone wanted to sell a shirt with "F..K the Civil Air Patrol" on it.  Under SJ's line of reasoning that would be ok because the words "Civil Air Patrol" were part of a larger sentence.  I'm fairly sure thats not how it works. 

If adding US to Civil Air Patrol was all it took to be able to sell the tapes 1800 probably would have done it.  Imagine selling a tape that said S___Civil Air Patrol (with the dash representing blank spaces.  Then the CAP member would just cut off the S and sew it on the uniform and 1800 probably still would have made money even with the wasted letter and excess material.

CAP was given exclusive rights to "Civil Air Patrol" in federal law which is more than good enough.  No further registration necessary. 

[mikeylikey]

^^  Umm......under the bill of rights I can make that T-shirt and wear it without fear of retribution by a corporation! 

I can also manufacture "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" nametapes and sell them to anyone I wish......that is until the CAP Corporate lawyer files for name and material trademark registration of said "U.S. Civil Air Patrol". 

CAP CORPORATION OWNS "Civil Air Patrol", they do not own "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" (yet). 

If we really want to get technical, since there are other CAP's in other countries I can create a website that manufactures the same "Civil Air Patrol" tapes that we have now.......sell them to whomever I wish and be justified to do so as long as I get at least one individual to order from my site that is a member of another countires CAP.  CAP NHQ will send me a C&D letter......but it will not hold up in court as I can truthfully say.....I was selling to CAP in another country.......not my fault that I also received orders from the United States CAP members. Then....the only option for CAP NHQ would be to prohibit it's members in the U.S. from buying from my website.

If we really want the "hot and heavy" of the situation we can challenge the legality of the ownership of the name "Civil Air Patrol" as it was a phrase coined to identify a group of individuals first and not a corporation until years later.  However.....that costs money and time and may not be worth it. 

[RiverAux]

Federal law:

§ 40306. Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

Notice it gives CAP rights to the name and words, not just insignia, badges, etc. 

[Eclipse]

Federal law:

§ 40306. Exclusive right to name, insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, marks, and words

The corporation has the exclusive right to use the name "Civil Air Patrol" and all insignia, copyrights, emblems, badges, descriptive or designating marks, words, and phrases the corporation adopts. This section does not affect any vested rights.

Notice it gives CAP rights to the name and words, not just insignia, badges, etc. 

Yes, so the local cert team can't say they are civil air patrol, but is a 3rd party "using the name" when they are making tapes for people authorized to use the name?

I'm sure the USAF, and the other services all have exclusive use, in theory, though its functionally unenforceable at this point.

Again, not worth challenging in court, but would likely be struck down.

They should just license the stuff and be done with it. 

Its also interesting to note that there are a number of 3rd parties who ignored the C&D's and the tiger was found to be paper.

[SARMedTech]

I think the biggest issue here is: Who the h*** cares? Other than it being CAP playing the name game, it really makes absolutely no difference. It doesnt affect the job we do, how we train or any of the programs we offer. The real litmus test here is the question of whether anyone is going to quit the organization because the new tapes say "U S Civil Air Patrol. This whole thing really seems to be a spin-off of people's personal feelings about Maj Gen Pineda than anything else. If you just bought a new set of BDUs, and put the old tape on, is it really that big of a deal to take a seam ripper, pull it off and put the new tape on? Come on folks...lets worry about bigger things like more funding so that members dont have to go broke to volunteer, state of the art equipment and true issues of ethics that may be a problem within the organization. As a groundpounder, my concerns run more to things like being the best SAR team member I can be, honing my skills and serving my community and my country

[Nick Critelli]

I think the biggest issue here is: Who the h*** cares? Other than it being CAP playing the name game, it really makes absolutely no difference.

It make a huge difference.  There are two types of ES/DR responders: governmental and private. Which side of the line do you want to be on? Do you want to join the Boy Scouts, local amateur radio club, equestrian club, dive team, AOPA club? Is that how you view CAP?  Or are you a quasi governmental entity, that has governmental oversight and is trained to professional standards? Since HSPD-5 and HSPD-8 which do you think state and local government will rely upon? Do you think they incur more or less legal liability if they use a private organization?

Things changed drastically after 9-11. HSPD-5 and 8 changed the whole response paradigm.

And for those of you that still think CAP is a private, volunteer, non-profit benevolent organization...that mantra worked well and was true before October 2000. Then the law changed. We are the ONLY Title 36 federal corporation whose board is appointed by the government itself (SECAF).

Our governing board is appointed by the federal government, our funding comes from the federal government and the federal government regulates and oversees us. That makes us what is known in legal academic circles as a quango or quasi governmental organization.

Use the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tag and wear it with pride. You're NOT just a private club.  With all that governmental oversight comes the right to wear the tag. And you just might find that you'll get called out more often.

[RiverAux]

We are the ONLY Title 36 federal corporation whose board is appointed by the government itself (SECAF).

Well, the wording is a little confusing to me, but it looks like the governing body of the USO, also a title 36 corporation has members appointed by the President and the Secretary of State.  Also, the Help America Vote Foundation has members appointed by the President and members of Congress.  And, of course the Red Cross. 

[SarDragon]

Also, I believe that in order to actually protect the name as an entity, it would have to be a registered trademark, as in "Civil Air PatrolTM", anyone know if it is?  Can it be, considering this is not a business (though it is a corporation)?

As I have stated elsewhere and elsewhen, CAP (the corporation) holds only two trademarks - CAPMART, and WHERE IMAGINATION TAKES FLIGHT. I have found no patents listed. Copyright information is too diverse and numerous for online catalogong.

[SARMedTech]

I think the biggest issue here is: Who the h*** cares? Other than it being CAP playing the name game, it really makes absolutely no difference.

It make a huge difference.  There are two types of ES/DR responders: governmental and private. Which side of the line do you want to be on? Do you want to join the Boy Scouts, local amateur radio club, equestrian club, dive team, AOPA club? Is that how you view CAP?  Or are you a quasi governmental entity, that has governmental oversight and is trained to professional standards? Since HSPD-5 and HSPD-8 which do you think state and local government will rely upon? Do you think they incur more or less legal liability if they use a private organization?

Things changed drastically after 9-11. HSPD-5 and 8 changed the whole response paradigm.

And for those of you that still think CAP is a private, volunteer, non-profit benevolent organization...that mantra worked well and was true before October 2000. Then the law changed. We are the ONLY Title 36 federal corporation whose board is appointed by the government itself (SECAF).

Our governing board is appointed by the federal government, our funding comes from the federal government and the federal government regulates and oversees us. That makes us what is known in legal academic circles as a quango or quasi governmental organization.

Use the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tag and wear it with pride. You're NOT just a private club.  With all that governmental oversight comes the right to wear the tag. And you just might find that you'll get called out more often.

If you had read, I mean really read, my entire post, you would have found the very end where I said that I am more concerned with the privilege of wearing the uniform and serving my squadron, my community and my country. What I was trying to say is that there are all these people that seem to be bent out of shape by the addition of the U.S. because it is a change that Maj Gen Pineda made without consulting each and every member. If you really read my post, you would have seen that I was addressing those people who were talking about having to change tapes, are the tapes too big, are the letters to small, my tag overlaps my pocket by 1/16 of an inch. Thats who I was talking to when I said who cares. If more members  put as much effort into their service, the specialties, training and professionalism and carrying out the mission for which they are trained we wouldnt be having this discussion.

[Ricochet13]

According to information posted on the CAP-PAO email list, CAP-NHQ/Program Development is looking into the question regarding size of the new U.S. Civil Air Patrol tapes.

[Ricochet13]

Please don't be the first person I see to wear a tape that extends over the sides of the pocket!  Not sure what will happen......but it will NOT be an AWESOME outcome!

If you really read my post, you would have seen that I was addressing those people who were talking about having to change tapes, are the tapes too big, are the letters to small, my tag overlaps my pocket by 1/16 of an inch. Thats who I was talking to when I said who cares. If more members  put as much effort into their service, the specialties, training and professionalism and carrying out the mission for which they are trained we wouldnt be having this discussion.

Not quite sure what bothers me about these two posts, but something surely does.  Can't put my finger on it exactly.  Maybe someone else has noticed it too?

[mikeylikey]

^^  Well I am just an ASS.....its ok to call me that!  I will absolutely take a member to the side and let them know how ate up their uniform looks with a name/branch tape overextending the pocket flap.  That was the only point I was trying to make.  Sorry if you missed it!

[SARMedTech]

And my point was simply that I think we have bigger and better things to worry about. Nothing more, nothing less. And if something bothers you about the posts, just say it. I thought that these forums were about the exchange of ideas. My point was also that its starting to get a little embarrassing hearing people go on and on, ad infinitum, about the U.S being added to the tapes. You can wear the new ones, do your best to make sure that they are worn appropriately and do not extend past the edges of the pocket, or, as I see, your other option is to disenroll yourself from CAP. I have been talking to some USCGAUX friends and they really are kind of in shock over how much we make of uniform items. Sure they do it too, Im sure, but not to the extent that CAP membership does. Will the U.S. also appear on patches, etc? Because if it doesnt, and it bothers some members that badly, you can always go to the blazer uniform. Im just truly frustrated that we take up so much space talking about these kinds of things when we could be talking about how to get more funding at the Wing and Squadron level, how to get the best equipment, how to subsidize some things so the membership doesnt have to go into debt while at the same time being asked to serve. I hope to have a long and dedicated service in CAP, but if we are losing members already and the member that we ARE recruiting are more worried about badges and tapes, well..to me thats just sad. Perhaps my post about "who the h***" cares was too hot-headed and I will take the blame for that. I just often stop and think of how this must look to potential members who come to CAPTalk to get info before joining and wonder if the level and topics of discourse might not sour them on wanting to join because of the level of pettiness to which we so often descend and if a potential member is put off and doesnt join because of the pettiness, its probably because they were serious in their desire to serve, and thats not someone we can afford to lose. Just my two cents.

[Dragoon]

CGAUX used to have an official forum site - it was FULL of uniform threads and arguments.

We're undoubtedly worse, though, because:

1.  We have cadets, who are very uniform conscious.

2.  USAF won't just let everyone wear they're uniforms, so we have to deal with the whole "alternative uniform" thing.

3.  We are in a year of great change to the uniforms, causing more discussion and disagreement.  Same thing happened in the Army when the beret came about.  Same thing is happening in USAF right now about the ABU and the new Service Dress.

[MIKE]

The Aux has a Knowledgebase now though... Which has some uniform topics.

[SARMedTech]

I believe CAP also has a knowledgebase, does it not?

[IceNine]

CAP Knowledgebase

Fixed long knowledgebase linky - MIKE