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BoxGranch
Recruit

Posts: 15
Unit: SER-FL-466

« on: June 09, 2017, 11:49:33 AM »

I just became a new Senior Member to support the squadron my son joined and will have to get a uniform. CAPP 50-4 states that grey cargo pants are allowed with the polo shirt and 39-1 states that civilian tactical pants are allowed which I interpret to mean cargo pants as well. 50-4 is the newer publication and I am dangerously assuming that the later publication has precedence even though both appear to have the same intent. Has anything I've missed changed that? I was the first to ever inquire about this at my squadron, so am seeking other inputs on it.

My second question is whether anyone has identified a brand/style that is the correct grey. From perusing the forum, it appears that some feel the Propper charcoal grey is correct while the grey is too light. Does anyone have any experience with the colors of the Tru-Spec or 5-11 products as an alternative supplier?

Thanks in advance and apologies if this was answered previously and I was unable to find it.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2017, 11:55:26 AM »

What's the difference between "cargo pants" and "tactical pants"?  If it's got gray side pocket and
looks reasonable, no one will car.

There is no official supplier, color, spec, or style beyond what you see in the reg, so again, dealer's choice.
"Some feel" a lot of things.  "Some felt" that the original wording of the pre-2014 39-1 needed to specify
tactical pants in order for them to be worn.  It didn't, but there you are.

There's also the reality of "you know it when you see it", and since Propper, Tru-Spec, and 5.11 all look essentially
the same, it's safe to assume that is at least the model.

I just bought a bunch of Tru-Spec on Amazon for both CAP and general wear, no issues with the sizing, appearance or utility.

Also, CAPTalk is a useful source for general information or opinion, but your best answer is locally with your Squadron CC
or Wing's practices.  Despite the apooplxy it would cause here, if everyone in your unit is buying them from "Dave down the street..."
and Dave's tend to be darker in shade but fit the style and utility, go to Dave's.

The corporate uniform is intentionally vague (though many of us wish it weren't) to allow for people to shop their closets
before shopping a store, and use normal retail channels as sources.  You can't use words like "medium" and expect one answer.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 12:00:13 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2017, 12:13:54 PM »

Based on the spec:

"5.2.2.4. Trousers/Slacks. Medium Gray (solid color). Wool, polyester/wool blend,
polyester/cotton or cotton trousers. Either slim, straight leg or loose fit, with or without pleat or cuffs is
allowed. Commercially available “tactical” slacks and “chinos” medium gray slacks with or without cuffs
are approved for optional wear. Shorts are not authorized. "


Just about anything other then Gray jeans could be worn.  "Chinos" (had to look those up) don't even have side
pockets, they are just causal pants.


https://www.landsend.com/products/mens-traditional-fit-5-pocket-freighter-pants/id_307547?sku_0=::VR3
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BoxGranch
Recruit

Posts: 15
Unit: SER-FL-466

« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2017, 12:22:07 PM »

Thanks for both replies! Perhaps a smart approach might be to try to match the color of the slacks the other Seniors are wearing with the Aviator shirt and the polo by trial and error. I'll get both shades and then use the one that doesn't match as well for other purposes.
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BoxGranch
Recruit

Posts: 15
Unit: SER-FL-466

« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2017, 12:24:33 PM »

Elcipse,

Sorry, I forgot to ask, but which color Tru-Spec did you get?

Thanks!
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 728

« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2017, 12:30:27 PM »

I just became a new Senior Member to support the squadron my son joined and will have to get a uniform. CAPP 50-4 states that grey cargo pants are allowed with the polo shirt and 39-1 states that civilian tactical pants are allowed which I interpret to mean cargo pants as well. 50-4 is the newer publication and I am dangerously assuming that the later publication has precedence even though both appear to have the same intent. Has anything I've missed changed that? I was the first to ever inquire about this at my squadron, so am seeking other inputs on it.

My second question is whether anyone has identified a brand/style that is the correct grey. From perusing the forum, it appears that some feel the Propper charcoal grey is correct while the grey is too light. Does anyone have any experience with the colors of the Tru-Spec or 5-11 products as an alternative supplier?

Thanks in advance and apologies if this was answered previously and I was unable to find it.

Please remember that per regulation the minimum required corporate uniform is the aviator shirt and grey pants
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2017, 12:35:54 PM »

This is what I ordered:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CLRBQSU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s03?ie=UTF8&th=1



My cost was $39.99, including the nice man who throws them at my front door.

Though the last time I ordered them (pre-Amazon Prime like 10 years ago), was alomost certainly from BDU.com

http://tacticalgear.com/propper-poly-cotton-ripstop-bdu-pants-gray

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BoxGranch
Recruit

Posts: 15
Unit: SER-FL-466

« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2017, 01:21:46 PM »

Thanks for the info on the Tru-Specs!

In regard to this:

"Please remember that per regulation the minimum required corporate uniform is the aviator shirt and grey pants"

CAPP 50-4 states that:

"3. Proper wear of the CAP Corporate Working Uniform.

CAP has a lot of uniforms, all of which serve specific purposes: “business” meetings, formal
occasions like banquets; field training and flight activities. The simplest uniform to wear is the
CAP Corporate Working Uniform, or “golf shirt.” (See CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual, for
more information). As you gain rank and responsibility, you will end up acquiring different
uniforms for different occasions.  "

Is it in error to first start with the Corporate Working Uniform as the first buy and then add the Dress, Aviator Shirt Style and Utility as needed? That would be an easy conclusion to reach from that paragraph. Money is not exactly overflowing here, so being able to defer expenditures would be helpful. I know some do not have these issues, and not intending to start a whine, but we cut off cable TV to cover bills like braces for my son and I am having to postpone other needs.

Thanks again!
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 728

« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2017, 01:27:48 PM »

Thanks for the info on the Tru-Specs!

In regard to this:

"Please remember that per regulation the minimum required corporate uniform is the aviator shirt and grey pants"

CAPP 50-4 states that:

"3. Proper wear of the CAP Corporate Working Uniform.

CAP has a lot of uniforms, all of which serve specific purposes: “business” meetings, formal
occasions like banquets; field training and flight activities. The simplest uniform to wear is the
CAP Corporate Working Uniform, or “golf shirt.” (See CAPM 39-1, CAP Uniform Manual, for
more information). As you gain rank and responsibility, you will end up acquiring different
uniforms for different occasions.  "

Is it in error to first start with the Corporate Working Uniform as the first buy and then add the Dress, Aviator Shirt Style and Utility as needed? That would be an easy conclusion to reach from that paragraph. Money is not exactly overflowing here, so being able to defer expenditures would be helpful. I know some do not have these issues, and not intending to start a whine, but we cut off cable TV to cover bills like braces for my son and I am having to postpone other needs.

Thanks again!

CAPM 39-1

1.2. Wear of the CAP Uniform.
1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms
described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may
require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a
specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied
without expense to the cadet.

1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the
Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets
authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.

1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style
uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and
older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style
Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph.
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BoxGranch
Recruit

Posts: 15
Unit: SER-FL-466

« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2017, 01:31:48 PM »

Thank you for the post on CAPP 39-1. The information in 50-4 seems to be saying something else and it is newer. I will let my squadron make the decision and if they require that I have to have uniforms before being able to afford them, I will have to postpone being a Senior Member.
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Lord of the North
Forum Regular

Posts: 111

« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2017, 01:38:25 PM »

Please note the subtle difference between "simplest uniform to wear is the
CAP Corporate Working Uniform, or “golf shirt.” " and the "minimum required uniform"
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 728

« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2017, 01:39:27 PM »

Thank you for the post on CAPP 39-1. The information in 50-4 seems to be saying something else and it is newer. I will let my squadron make the decision and if they require that I have to have uniforms before being able to afford them, I will have to postpone being a Senior Member.

Its not CAPP its CAPM

CAPR = CAP Regulation
CAPP = CAP Pamphlet
CAPM = CAP Manual

Also from CAPM 39-1


1.1.2. Oversight.
1.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication
is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as
prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication
are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive
grooming and appearance standards.

The paragraph you cite is CAPP 50-4 just speaks about a uniform's proper wear, not what uniform is required.  It states the working uniform is simplest, and whereas that is true, also does not speak to requirements
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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2017, 02:05:42 PM »

Thanks for both replies! Perhaps a smart approach might be to try to match the color of the slacks the other Seniors are wearing with the Aviator shirt and the polo by trial and error. I'll get both shades and then use the one that doesn't match as well for other purposes.

Be advised, the tactical pants and aviator shirt is not allowed, the grey pants would have to be, for lack of a better term, dressy. Per 39-1:

Quote
4.2.5. Men’s Aviator Shirt Uniform. (Figure 4.16)
4.2.5.5.  Trousers.  Medium gray (solid color). Wool, polyester‐wool blend or polyester‐cotton trousers will be worn and either slim, straight leg or loose fit with or without pleats or cuffs are allowed. 100% cotton, tactical, chinos cotton twill weave trousers, jeans or casual trousers are not authorized with this uniform combination.

For the polo:
Quote
5.2.2. CAP Corporate Working Uniform. (Figure 5.3)
5.2.2.4.  Trousers/Slacks.  Medium Gray (solid color). Wool, polyester/wool blend, polyester/cotton or cotton trousers. Either slim, straight leg or loose fit, with or without pleat or cuffs is allowed. Commercially available “tactical” slacks and “chinos” medium gray slacks with or without cuffs are approved for optional wear.  Shorts are not authorized.

Just thought to clarify it :-)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:08:51 PM by Ozzy » Logged
Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
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NER Cadet Leadership School 10
Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 02:05:59 PM »

Thank you for the post on CAPP 39-1. The information in 50-4 seems to be saying something else and it is newer. I will let my squadron make the decision and if they require that I have to have uniforms before being able to afford them, I will have to postpone being a Senior Member.

It's a nuance a lot of people miss.

Aviator whites or USAF blues are required for all, the golf shirt is one option, which itself has the option of
dress pants or tactical pants.

As mentioned Pamphlets are advisory / non-directive.  They might indicate a best practice, but that's as far as it goes.
Regs and Manuals prescribe action and are directive.

As you've probably already seen from your squadron, and will see from reading things here, local custom usually dictates
"general practice", and it's best to go with the local flow, with the caveat that if you get involved with activities
outside the squadron or wing, those practices may conflict with what the regs say, so you it's best to be informed.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2017, 02:49:24 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
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Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 02:45:45 PM »

Here's what they end up looking like:




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Eclipse
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2017, 02:48:56 PM »

Never blouse those again.

Ever.
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BoxGranch
Recruit

Posts: 15
Unit: SER-FL-466

« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2017, 03:16:44 PM »

Thank you all. I will defer to my squadron and if I need to, I will postpone serving as a Senior Member until I have the funds to acquire the correct uniform. Thank you for the distinction between CAPM and CAPP. My bottom line here is simply trying to put back in since my son is a Cadet Member. The squadron felt I have things to offer and encouraged me to become a Senior Member. They were unfamiliar with the cargo pants being used with the polo which was the only reason I asked here. Again, thanks all.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2017, 03:36:45 PM »

I will postpone serving as a Senior Member until I have the funds to acquire the correct uniform.

I wouldn't go that far, or take it that way, especially if there's a financial issue.  If your unit CC is fine with the
UOD being the golf shirt, or your wearing it, then it's his call.

It's more of an issue of realizing that at some point some activity or another may call for the whites as the
only approved UOD, in which case it's not cricket to say "You can't make me."  Otherwise, jump in and start servifying.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 756

« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2017, 04:11:39 PM »

Here's what they end up looking like:




Perfect. Just pull the pants outside the boots. And for this uniform, footwear is a gray area as well. I wear shoes, not boots. Just make sure they are black and not tennis shoes.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 756

« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2017, 04:14:12 PM »

Please note the subtle difference between "simplest uniform to wear is the
CAP Corporate Working Uniform, or “golf shirt.” " and the "minimum required uniform"

Yes. I bought the "minimum required uniform" just so no one could ever fuss. Its been in my closet, still in the plastic, for well over a year. Its required to be owned, not necessarily ever worn. LOL
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