Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 21, 2017, 08:58:52 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Not too good of a statistic
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All] Print
Author Topic: Not too good of a statistic  (Read 6876 times)
deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 34
Unit: LA-076

« on: May 27, 2017, 10:25:17 PM »

According to CAP 50-7, only 22% of Senior Members ever complete Level 2 of the senior member Professional Development Program.  That really surprised me.

MG
Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2017, 11:10:53 PM »

According to CAP 50-7, only 22% of Senior Members ever complete Level 2 of the senior member Professional Development Program.  That really surprised me.

MG


Little incentive to do so.
Logged
Jester
Forum Regular

Posts: 195

« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2017, 12:26:42 AM »

I figured the bottleneck would be Level 3 and its conference requirement.

I wonder what the sticking point is with level 2. Tech ratings?  Or have they gotten fed up and dropped CAP at that point anyway?
Logged
RazorbackPride
Recruit

Posts: 49

« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2017, 02:11:09 AM »

According to CAP 50-7, only 22% of Senior Members ever complete Level 2 of the senior member Professional Development Program.  That really surprised me.

MG


Little incentive to do so.

I know right, the pay is awful. It's almost like they want us to train and do things just out of a desire for volunteer service.
Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2017, 02:50:38 AM »

The problem for Level 2 is the CAP Officer Course. It requires a time commitment outside weekly meetings, and has a time limit for completion. These days, it's online, but it used to be an excruciatingly boring correspondence course, with a one year time limit, that many folks just didn't have the time or patience for.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2017, 07:34:12 AM »

The problem for Level 2 is the CAP Officer Course. It requires a time commitment outside weekly meetings, and has a time limit for completion. These days, it's online, but it used to be an excruciatingly boring correspondence course, with a one year time limit, that many folks just didn't have the time or patience for.

That's how I did it way back in the day.  I remember it being about as stimulating as munching on stale cardboard.

My then-CC signed me up for it and when the monolithic pack of books arrived in the post I thought, "oh, man..."

If I'd been married at the time I don't know how I would have found time to do it.  I remember lots of evenings grinding away at the public library doing it, going straight there from work to do it.

It really was a gotta-wanna thing back then.  I don't know what the online course is like now.
Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,043

« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2017, 11:06:45 AM »

Hated that part of level two training back in the day...wading through 4 volumes of material.

Was part of the curriculum writing team for the Officer Basic Course in 2009-2010.   A good start then to incorporate technology with training...but needs to be updated.
Logged
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 34
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2017, 11:11:00 AM »

I can only look at this from a personal point of view which goes to the reason I joined CAP to start with and that was to give back to the community.  I have been in for 8 months now and have my technician rating as Communications officer for the squadron, am assistant PDO officer , a squadron mentor and have completed all requirements for Level 2 and started toward working on Level 3.  This is not meant to be a resume but when I joined I made a commitment to do the best job I could for the squadron.  I went through Hurricane Katrina and saw what that did to our home and maybe that was what made me realize what volunteerism really was and why that is one of the core values. 

MG
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2017, 11:35:34 AM »

Before that number has any real meaning, it has to be vetted for who is included, information which is
not provided.  I would hazard the number is higher among members who actually show up, especially now that OBC is online.

With that said, after next Summer's "senior scramble", the number of members promoted past 2d Lt is going to start dropping
precipitously considering the new PD and TIG requirements. 

OBC will be required for 1st Lt, meaning there are going to be a lot less of those, and the conferences will be
too long a roe to hoe for many to ever get to Captain. Major and Lt Col will be out of reach of the majority of the membership.

It would be very interesting to know what the original intentions were in the 2014 changes - certainly it's not going to
incentivize a membership already under-performing to do more.

The proper way to change things would have been to tie PD to job assignment ("You must have 'x' to be 'y', and not before and not without..."), and
remove any subjectivity in promotions to insure those that put forth the effort aren't stymied by "double secret expectations".
That's a mission focused approached.

That, or just get rid of it altogether already...
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 762

« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2017, 11:35:47 AM »

Most would consider me a newbie since I've been in CAP less than two years. But in that time I have gone through MS, MO, AP, TMP, O-Ride Pilot and now MP. So whether its a SAREX or actual Mission, I am able to fill several slots as needed. I feel like I'm truly "giving back to my community" in those roles. So I see no incentive, and have no desire to "progress through the ranks". I'll never go past 2nd Lt.. I'm not a metal, ribbon or certificate type of person and don't wear "blues", so ribbons are not needed.

Everyone has their "own thing". I'm doing mine.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 11:39:47 AM by etodd » Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,807

« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2017, 11:56:24 AM »

Most would consider me a newbie since I've been in CAP less than two years. But in that time I have gone through MS, MO, AP, TMP, O-Ride Pilot and now MP. So whether its a SAREX or actual Mission, I am able to fill several slots as needed. I feel like I'm truly "giving back to my community" in those roles. So I see no incentive, and have no desire to "progress through the ranks". I'll never go past 2nd Lt.. I'm not a metal, ribbon or certificate type of person and don't wear "blues", so ribbons are not needed.

Everyone has their "own thing". I'm doing mine.

In that case, why are you even a Lieutenant? You can do your ES thing as a Senior Member without Grade no problem.
Logged
deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 34
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2017, 11:57:35 AM »

Before that number has any real meaning, it has to be vetted for who is included, information which is
not provided.  I would hazard the number is higher among members who actually show up, especially now that OBC is online.

With that said, after next Summer's "senior scramble", the number of members promoted past 2d Lt is going to start dropping
precipitously considering the new PD and TIG requirements. 

OBC will be required for 1st Lt, meaning there are going to be a lot less of those, and the conferences will be
too long a roe to hoe for many to ever get to Captain. Major and Lt Col will be out of reach of the majority of the membership.

It would be very interesting to know what the original intentions were in the 2014 changes - certainly it's not going to
incentivize a membership already under-performing to do more.

The proper way to change things would have been to tie PD to job assignment ("You must have 'x' to be 'y', and not before and not without..."), and
remove any subjectivity in promotions to insure those that put forth the effort aren't stymied by "double secret expectations".
That's a mission focused approached.

That, or just get rid of it altogether already...





All good and valid points. 
Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 762

« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2017, 12:56:56 PM »

Most would consider me a newbie since I've been in CAP less than two years. But in that time I have gone through MS, MO, AP, TMP, O-Ride Pilot and now MP. So whether its a SAREX or actual Mission, I am able to fill several slots as needed. I feel like I'm truly "giving back to my community" in those roles. So I see no incentive, and have no desire to "progress through the ranks". I'll never go past 2nd Lt.. I'm not a metal, ribbon or certificate type of person and don't wear "blues", so ribbons are not needed.

Everyone has their "own thing". I'm doing mine.

In that case, why are you even a Lieutenant? You can do your ES thing as a Senior Member without Grade no problem.

Good question.  I didn't apply for it. When I hit the 6 month mark, the Squadron Commander announced at the next meeting that I was now a 2nd Lt.  Everyone clapped and slapped me on the back, and I'm like "why?".  LOL   Turns out in order to be a MP I had to fulfill all the same requirements, so the 6 month mark was all that was left. If he had asked me ahead of time I would have said not to bother with the paperwork.
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
Briank
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2017, 01:04:51 PM »

For me, I don't expect to level 2 any time soon due to the tech requirement.  OBC was no big deal.  That can be knocked out pretty quick.  Completing tech in a speciality track however looks near impossible while working full time.  90% of the requirements there are fine, but there's that last 10% that are like "yeah, nope"
Logged
FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,129

« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2017, 01:28:08 PM »

In CAP, grade and PD advancement are separate and have no realistic (if not theoretic) correlation.  That said, if a member wants to take the time, they will take the time to progress.  It isn't that difficult. I did it while raising a family, starting and conducting my business, and enjoying a rewarding life apart from the organization.  I found the effort rewarding.  It expanded my circle of friends, and experiences.  I even learned a thing or two about CAP. There are reasons, and then there are excuses for not progressing.  In any event, IMHO, if you're motivated, you'll make it thru level 5.
Logged
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2017, 02:08:30 PM »

BefOBC will be required for 1st Lt, meaning there are going to be a lot less of those, and the conferences will be too long a roe to hoe for many to ever get to Captain. Major and Lt Col will be out of reach of the majority of the membership.

I think the wing conferences are required for Major.  Its all I need, and I've been a Captain since 1986.
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 297

« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2017, 02:33:46 PM »

[quote/]
I think the wing conferences are required for Major.  Its all I need, and I've been a Captain since 1986.
[/quote]

Under the old regs, you needed Level 3 for Major and that Level was the one that required the conferences. Under the new reg you need Level 3 for Captain and Level 4 (!!) for Major.

If you are currently a Captain, you have until August of 2018 (?) to be grandfathered to Major with only a Level 3. If you miss that date, you need Level 4. With your length of service as a Captain, and if you WANT to make Major, you've got about 14 months left to finish the requirements.

Your decision.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2017, 03:15:09 PM »

Next June or July will be a great time for Wings and Regions to run their conferences.

After August, however,  don't look for year-over-year attendance to increase.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,043

« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2017, 03:30:59 PM »

In CAP, grade and PD advancement are separate and have no realistic (if not theoretic) correlation.  That said, if a member wants to take the time, they will take the time to progress.  It isn't that difficult. I did it while raising a family, starting and conducting my business, and enjoying a rewarding life apart from the organization.  I found the effort rewarding.  It expanded my circle of friends, and experiences.  I even learned a thing or two about CAP. There are reasons, and then there are excuses for not progressing.  In any event, IMHO, if you're motivated, you'll make it thru level 5.

Totally agree....almost same story word for word.    As a Chaplain when I joined in 1996--- all we had to do to advance to Lt Col was read two pamphlets and breathe (time-in-grade).  We were part of the "Special Recognition Program".  There were a few within our ranks that felt the if the Chaplain Corps was to be taken seriously in the area of professional development, that we needed to meet the same PD requirements as others (I received my GRW in 2001).  This change took place in 2008.  Until the change, we had chaplains who held the grade of Lt Col who had not progressed in their training past Level I!!!  Since then, chaplains serving at Group/Wing/Region and National levels need to attain the level of training commensurate with their grade/assignment.

I do not regret for one moment the hours/money etc spent as either a student or staff member in SLS/CLC/RSC-CCRSC/NSC or UCC.  It has allowed me the opportunity to see the "big picture" of CAP as well as interacting with some outstanding CAP members/leaders.  It is a sacrifice at time...but it is worth it personally and professionally.
Logged
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2017, 04:09:40 PM »

If you are currently a Captain, you have until August of 2018 (?) to be grandfathered to Major with only a Level 3. If you miss that date, you need Level 4. With your length of service as a Captain, and if you WANT to make Major, you've got about 14 months left to finish the requirements.

Your decision.
All I need is for a conference to happen during that time that I can actually get to.  However since all I need to do that that point is have my master logistics rating input to have level 4 done and be eligible under the new rules anyway, the time constraint really isn't an issue in my case.

But then..... I'm done.  I see no way under current conditions that I will ever make LTC.
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 119
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2017, 06:40:23 PM »

CAPP 50-7 (note the double Ps) came out in 2004. I wouldn't trust any statistics that old.
Logged
Shawn W.
Member

Posts: 72

« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2017, 08:17:24 PM »

Quote
That's how I did it way back in the day.  I remember it being about as stimulating

I did the ECI 13 in late 2001 or early 2002.... Talk about a mind numbing course.. and most of it didn't seem like it pertained at all to what we do in C.A.P.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2017, 12:20:34 AM »

You're going to actually assert that knowledge of Linebacker II didn't help commanders run squadrons?

I'm sorry, but I simply can't tell you how many times I've reached a low point in squadron operations
or a major activity, where I was able to fall back on my knowledge of Vietnam-era bombing campaigns
for inspiration and tools.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2017, 12:27:05 AM »

Quote
That's how I did it way back in the day.  I remember it being about as stimulating

I did the ECI 13 in late 2001 or early 2002.... Talk about a mind numbing course.. and most of it didn't seem like it pertained at all to what we do in C.A.P.

Not to mention it wasn't ever updated.. I ended up taking it in 2009 for my Eaker
Logged
Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
SGT, ARNG (Out!)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, (17)
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 418

« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2017, 11:44:29 AM »

The problem for Level 2 is the CAP Officer Course. It requires a time commitment outside weekly meetings, and has a time limit for completion. These days, it's online, but it used to be an excruciatingly boring correspondence course, with a one year time limit, that many folks just didn't have the time or patience for.

Nearly all of the CAP online courses are awful.  The all time worst I've endured was SLS, no on second thought it was "CAP Intro to Safety"... that course where CAP threatened the 'nuclear option' for SM (and cadets) who didn't complete it.  Intro to CAP Safety was a  course designed by the NHQ cyber lobotomist.  I know a half dozen cadets who dropped out of CAP solely because they couldn't get past that awful, useless, totally irrelevant course.  For CAP, online course development and presentation is definitely not yet a "arrived".  If you'd like, I tell you what I really think.  :)
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2017, 12:13:52 PM »

Hard to disagree - most of the courses read like "reactions", not implemented because of the
need to impart information, but the need to CYA for a lawyer or an actuary.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 34
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2017, 07:25:41 PM »

I attended SLS at the Academy a week ago for a day and a half.  It was more like death by PowerPoint.

MG
Logged
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2017, 07:59:30 PM »

I'm sorry, but I simply can't tell you how many times I've reached a low point in squadron operations or a major activity, where I was able to fall back on my knowledge of Vietnam-era bombing campaigns for inspiration and tools.

Probably half of my US Army Armor Officer's Advance course was on how to set up temporary cemeteries.  After being told it had not been policy to do that since 1952.  So its not just C.A.P.
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,805

« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2017, 08:27:36 PM »

I attended SLS at the Academy a week ago for a day and a half.  It was more like death by PowerPoint.

MG

That failure belongs to the folks running the course. There is good, relevant information contained in the lesson plans​: just needs competent people to let it out.
Logged
CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2017, 08:56:41 PM »

From another service auxiliary perspective, some of the online Mandatory Training for new CG Auxiliarists (or returning ones, in my case) will not win Academy Awards any more than the CAP online courses I remember.

But, as with the CAP stuff, it's something that's got to be done, if you expect to participate.

If my opinion meant anything to CAP, one thing I would do is completely re-do Level I to actually make it a learning experience the new member has to participate in.  I'm not sure how it is now, but back in my day it was "show up for six months and don't do anything egregiously wrong and you'll get your second looie bars, almost a dead cert."  I personally never saw a new SM get denied that "six-month-bump."

Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2017, 11:07:15 PM »

Before that number has any real meaning, it has to be vetted for who is included, information which is
not provided.  I would hazard the number is higher among members who actually show up, especially now that OBC is online

I was working on the senior member section of my squadron's site and I came across some numbers based off of the award certificates for the level completion...
Per: https://www.capmembers.com/cap_university/pd_awards/

Level II: About 670 awards per year
Level III: About 350 awards per year
Level IV: Less then 200 awards per year
Level V: No number provided

Doing a little research based on the Volunteer magazines...
Per: http://www.cap.news/civil-air-patrol/volunteer-magazine/  Volunteer magazines (2016)

Level IV: Up To September: 148
Level V: Up To September: 86

For some reason the Volunteer magazine isn't printing the names of people who have been award Eaker/Spaatz Level IV/V anymore. They used to post from the Mitchell up and I believe level III and up. I guess they got lazy.
Logged
Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
SGT, ARNG (Out!)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, (17)
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
Briank
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2017, 06:26:15 PM »

From another service auxiliary perspective, some of the online Mandatory Training for new CG Auxiliarists (or returning ones, in my case) will not win Academy Awards any more than the CAP online courses I remember.

But, as with the CAP stuff, it's something that's got to be done, if you expect to participate.

The NIMS ICS stuff has to take the award as the worst.  The CAP stuff is so much better than that.  Fortunately I'd already done the ICS series years ago for ARES and had forgotten the pain.  Watching people struggle through it (and occasionally just give up and decide not to do things that require it) is bringing back those horrible memories though!
Logged
CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2017, 01:52:59 PM »

The NIMS ICS stuff has to take the award as the worst.  The CAP stuff is so much better than that.  Fortunately I'd already done the ICS series years ago for ARES and had forgotten the pain.  Watching people struggle through it (and occasionally just give up and decide not to do things that require it) is bringing back those horrible memories though!

I heard a fellow flotilla member say the ICS stuff was "intense."  So I suppose I'd better go out and buy a good supply of Aleve, Motrin, Tylenol, etc.
Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,805

« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2017, 11:24:14 PM »

The NIMS ICS stuff has to take the award as the worst.  The CAP stuff is so much better than that.  Fortunately I'd already done the ICS series years ago for ARES and had forgotten the pain.  Watching people struggle through it (and occasionally just give up and decide not to do things that require it) is bringing back those horrible memories though!

I heard a fellow flotilla member say the ICS stuff was "intense."  So I suppose I'd better go out and buy a good supply of Aleve, Motrin, Tylenol, etc.

The most "intense" part of ICS is staying awake. Fortunately, it's so easy that you could probably pass the tests while asleep.
Logged
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,043
Unit: SI

« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2017, 05:12:02 PM »

The 100,200,700,800 NIMS series is a snooze-fest.

After that it gets more interesting, especially when you start getting to look at exercise design, after action reports, incident reports, etc.
Logged
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2017, 10:11:44 AM »

The NIMS ICS stuff has to take the award as the worst.  The CAP stuff is so much better than that.  Fortunately I'd already done the ICS series years ago for ARES and had forgotten the pain.  Watching people struggle through it (and occasionally just give up and decide not to do things that require it) is bringing back those horrible memories though!

I heard a fellow flotilla member say the ICS stuff was "intense."  So I suppose I'd better go out and buy a good supply of Aleve, Motrin, Tylenol, etc.

Wait until you need a DO clearance for something and have to fill out that 127 page form
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 885
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2017, 05:39:15 PM »

At least now you only do the SF86 once, online, and then update over the years as you are briefed/change/etc.

Mordecai, I completely agree on the ICS training; once you slog through the highly repetitive initial four courses, it opens out into some really useful training in operational and exercise (drill) planning (the drill being the exercise of the actual plan, rather than "some sort of horrible spasm").

http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1206785


V/r
Spam
Logged
CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2017, 03:44:37 PM »

Wait until you need a DO clearance for something and have to fill out that 127 page form

It depends on if it's a task I feel strongly about participation in to go through that.

I had a Top Secret clearance with the Air National Guard many moons ago and the old DD398 was bad enough, not to mention that one of the investigators calling an old friend of mine spooked him more than it did me.

But I did that because I had to; my AFSC required it and I was ordered to get it.  I couldn't say "no."  Well, I could, if I wanted to run afoul of the UCMJ and/or my State Military Code.

In the CGAux, it is similar to CAP in that we are, of course, volunteers, though of course the CGAux operates much more closely with the CG than CAP does with the AF these days and it would be unlikely that a CAP member would need to go through such a clearance process, except for maybe the cyber operations some of you have been posting about.

For me, especially after my experiences in CAP, it would be a matter of a cost-benefit issue; i.e., do-I-really want-to-do-it v. intrusive-into-my-private-life/administrative headaches.
Logged
Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,676

« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2017, 06:02:28 PM »

In the CGAux, it is similar to CAP in that we are, of course, volunteers, though of course the CGAux operates much more closely with the CG than CAP does with the AF these days...

There's no argument that the Coast Guard Auxiliary operates a bit different than CAP, but I would argue that the relationship with the Air Force is much better now than it has been for years. And I'm not just talking about being part of the Total Force, but the number and types of Air Force missions we're participating in that we never did before. And let's not forget that unlike the Coast Guard Auxiliary, we get millions of dollars every year for procurement of aircraft, vehicles, communications equipment, etc. We still have room for improvement, but I'd say we're moving in the right direction.
Logged
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,805

« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2017, 07:45:50 PM »

For me, especially after my experiences in CAP, it would be a matter of a cost-benefit issue; i.e., do-I-really want-to-do-it v. intrusive-into-my-private-life/administrative headaches.

Why are you back hanging out on CAP Talk? I thought you were done with CAP and everything related to it, again.
Logged
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,765
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2017, 11:03:59 PM »

[quote/]
I think the wing conferences are required for Major.  Its all I need, and I've been a Captain since 1986.

Under the old regs, you needed Level 3 for Major and that Level was the one that required the conferences. Under the new reg you need Level 3 for Captain and Level 4 (!!) for Major.

If you are currently a Captain, you have until August of 2018 (?) to be grandfathered to Major with only a Level 3. If you miss that date, you need Level 4. With your length of service as a Captain, and if you WANT to make Major, you've got about 14 months left to finish the requirements.

Your decision.
[/quote]

And have been appointed to the grade of captain Prior to Aug 14, 2014
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2017, 11:44:02 AM »

1986<2014
Logged
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2017, 11:17:05 PM »

If you are currently a Captain, you have until August of 2018 (?) to be grandfathered to Major with only a Level 3. If you miss that date, you need Level 4. With your length of service as a Captain, and if you WANT to make Major, you've got about 14 months left to finish the requirements

All I am missing is a wing conference.  And with the exception of the level 4 requirements you cannot sign off until after you have level 3 (a master rating which I have done) I am done with level 4 as well, so the time constraint doesn't bother me a lot.

Though considering a promotion means only that I have to buy uniform items and nothing else, I'm perfectly happy to be a captain with a Wilson award.
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2017, 09:51:37 AM »

I am currently A Technician in Emergency Services, after next weekend I will be a Senior Rating in Emergency services. However, I am a TO and the Logistics Specialty Track is harder IMO than the Emergency services track. I am not even tech rated in Logistics. However, I need level 4 to become a Major... and I will have my Level 3 by next year ( All i need it 2 Conferences) so it looks like Level 3 is my max.
Logged
Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
Too many Awards, Achievments and Qualifications to list.

N6RVT
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2017, 05:35:17 AM »

and I will have my Level 3 by next year ( All i need it 2 Conferences) so it looks like Level 3 is my max.

Most of the people I know are hung up on Level 3 its because of the conference attendance requirement.  It held me up for literally DECADES and I won't finish level 3 until the conference later this year, though that should only be a few months away now.

In my case Level 4 is only inputting things I have already done.  However I will have already made Major and level 4 won't get me promoted again at that point, so I will also be stuck.

No LTC for me, probably ever, as I will never make it to National for the required school.
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,805

« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2017, 07:45:18 AM »

and I will have my Level 3 by next year ( All i need it 2 Conferences) so it looks like Level 3 is my max.

Most of the people I know are hung up on Level 3 its because of the conference attendance requirement.  It held me up for literally DECADES and I won't finish level 3 until the conference later this year, though that should only be a few months away now.

In my case Level 4 is only inputting things I have already done.  However I will have already made Major and level 4 won't get me promoted again at that point, so I will also be stuck.

No LTC for me, probably ever, as I will never make it to National for the required school.

Have you used any of your PME to get waivers? Will any of it count as NSC equivalent?
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
N6RVT
Member

Posts: 62
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2017, 09:42:57 AM »

and I will have my Level 3 by next year ( All i need it 2 Conferences) so it looks like Level 3 is my max.

Most of the people I know are hung up on Level 3 its because of the conference attendance requirement.  It held me up for literally DECADES and I won't finish level 3 until the conference later this year, though that should only be a few months away now.

In my case Level 4 is only inputting things I have already done.  However I will have already made Major and level 4 won't get me promoted again at that point, so I will also be stuck.

No LTC for me, probably ever, as I will never make it to National for the required school.

Have you used any of your PME to get waivers? Will any of it count as NSC equivalent?

I will for Level 4, but I don't have anything good for Level 5, I didn't get that far.  And I have been around for more than long enough to have made LTC under the old system so I have no basis for complaint.  In fact, a guy I went to cadet emcampment with just got made a wing commander....

In fact, I am a strong supporter of the new system.  I always thought the levels should match up to military grades (Level 2 = O2, Level 4 =O4, etc).  At one point I was in a squadron where more than half the senior members were LTC and none of them had a Wilson.  Field Grades in CAP actually mean something now.
Logged
Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2017, 09:55:15 AM »

Field Grades in CAP actually mean something now.

Such as?

Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,676

« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2017, 01:47:43 PM »

Field Grades in CAP actually mean something now.

Such as?

C'mon, for years CAP has been giving grades like it was candy. I, for one, am glad they're making it harder to get promoted. That said, I do think the current system still needs improvement, but this was a move in the right direction.

Promotions should be tied not just to PD and performance, but to responsibilities and expectations. Members should be promoted because they're ready to assume greater responsibilities with the organization.

Unfortunately, that's not always the case. We just need to look around to see many field grade officers who not only can't wear the uniform correctly, but can't even command, direct, or manage anything. Yet, they're Lt Cols and Majs. I think the intent with these and other changes was to minimize this issue.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2017, 03:13:10 PM »

I agree on what it should be, nothing in the new PD changes a single thing in regards to performance expectations or responsiblities.

What changed is the time between and it'll cost more to be a Lt Col (in addition to providing a new pinch point to block them without making a CC have to say "no".

Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 731

« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2017, 01:44:38 AM »

Field Grades in CAP actually mean something now.

Such as?

C'mon, for years CAP has been giving grades like it was candy. I, for one, am glad they're making it harder to get promoted. That said, I do think the current system still needs improvement, but this was a move in the right direction.

Promotions should be tied not just to PD and performance, but to responsibilities and expectations. Members should be promoted because they're ready to assume greater responsibilities with the organization.

Unfortunately, that's not always the case. We just need to look around to see many field grade officers who not only can't wear the uniform correctly, but can't even command, direct, or manage anything. Yet, they're Lt Cols and Majs. I think the intent with these and other changes was to minimize this issue.

We still give out grade like candy.  I have yet to understand why we have grade as it is not really linked to anything.  I am doing nothing now as a Major that I couldn't have done as a Lieutenant.  The only reason I say Lieutenant is because I'm a squadron CC and that carries a promotion to 1 LT.  From the ES side I could be a SMWOG and it wouldn't change what I am doing
Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 762

« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2017, 12:45:20 PM »

......  I have yet to understand why we have grade as it is not really linked to anything.

'Cause some folks are really into all the bling on their blues. Each to his own.

At our last meeting someone told me I should take the Yeager test. I asked why, and he said I get a nice certificate I could frame. I just smiled and nodded.  I have the book, and enjoyed reading it, but will most likely never bother taking the online test. Some folks need and enjoy those things. To each his own. Its all good.
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2017, 01:09:03 PM »

The AEPSM is a very nice indoctrination to AE history including CAP's part of it.

For years it has been done as an open-book test in groups.  It has value. You should take it, and set
the example not be the example (of a blow-hard pilot). If you "already know it" then it will not be
a challenge, and you can help others.

And as someone who generally advocates for getting rid of grade in CAP, saying CAP has it because people
"like bling" grossly mischaracterizes the situation and the evolution of it, and sounds incredibly condescending
coming from someone who hasn't been in CAP that along and admits to being clueless regarding
significant and important areas of the organization.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

darkmatter
Recruit

Posts: 27

« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2017, 02:40:53 PM »

As new senior former c/Lt Col I'm fortunate enough to automatically have tech in cp but I do with that the specialty tracks would be for atleast the knowledge part be done on line it's just demonstrating you know what going on because to find a senior who can give you the time needed to complete that knowledge portion is super hard and it's a  large part of PD
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 02:44:14 PM by darkmatter » Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2017, 07:44:56 PM »

To Mr. Todd, the Yeager test is a requirement for Captain or Major these days,  just so you knowledge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2017, 09:44:04 PM »

To Mr. Todd, the Yeager test is a requirement for Captain or Major these days,  just so you knowledge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Isn't the [darn] thing open book? I seem to recall being told that.  If it is and someone is avoiding it then I don't know what to tell them. 

It is just one of those things to knock out right away so it is done and you never have to think about AE again if you're lucky.  My squadron is forcing me into the assistant aerospace education officer role.  That is despite my repeated pointing out that I do not want to do it...AE is just above reading the regulations on my list of things that excite me about CAP. That test is one of my albatrosses at the moment as I wait on some paperwork to clear NHQ so I can proceed.
Logged
I have complete faith in the continued absurdity of what ever is going on.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2017, 09:47:34 PM »

Yes, open book. I took the paper version, closed book, many moons ago. My Mitchell award knowledge, from 35 years back, allowed me to pass with no problems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2017, 10:30:27 PM »

Yes, open book. I took the paper version, closed book, many moons ago. My Mitchell award knowledge, from 35 years back, allowed me to pass with no problems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I remember looking at the book for about two minutes and going "Seriously? They give an award for knowing this?".  It wasn't anything I found to be something that anyone with a reasonable degree of intelligence should worry about.
Logged
I have complete faith in the continued absurdity of what ever is going on.
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 119
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2017, 12:14:51 PM »

Quite a few people who join CAP have little or no aviation knowledge.  We have three new senior members. Two have never been in the military and one was a finance NCO in the AF. They all joined because of grandchildren and none of them know much about aerospace. This test which is easy for someone with that background, helps bring everyone up to at least a basic standard.
Logged
KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2017, 02:22:19 PM »

Quite a few people who join CAP have little or no aviation knowledge.  We have three new senior members. Two have never been in the military and one was a finance NCO in the AF. They all joined because of grandchildren and none of them know much about aerospace. This test which is easy for someone with that background, helps bring everyone up to at least a basic standard.

Meh. I showed it to my wife who has no aerospace background whatsoever and she goes "Why are they testing people on elementary school level history stuff?". It's kind of comical quite honestly because it's all basic common sense stuff that any reasonably intelligent person over the age of 10 or 12 should be able to reason through.

Logged
I have complete faith in the continued absurdity of what ever is going on.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2017, 02:44:25 PM »

Quite a few people who join CAP have little or no aviation knowledge.  We have three new senior members. Two have never been in the military and one was a finance NCO in the AF. They all joined because of grandchildren and none of them know much about aerospace. This test which is easy for someone with that background, helps bring everyone up to at least a basic standard.

Meh. I showed it to my wife who has no aerospace background whatsoever and she goes "Why are they testing people on elementary school level history stuff?". It's kind of comical quite honestly because it's all basic common sense stuff that any reasonably intelligent person over the age of 10 or 12 should be able to reason through.

It's really not.  History is selectively taught in schools these days, and details on the history of something as "boring" as Aerospace,
isn't considered as important as fostering some of the more "agenda-based" curricula.

For people born in the 50's and especially the 60's, the space race, not to mention the political connectivity to it, was front-page news
and drove the majority of the technological advances of that era.

By the 70s, budget issues, the short-memory and attention span of the general public, not to mention its own success meant AE was
no longer "exciting", and started dropping from the zeitgeist, which just got progressively worse.

Ask the average adult what the "outrage of the day" is, or what the RHOBH are fighting about and you'll get 15 minutes of detail,
but ask them how an airplane actually flies, or who Chuck Yeager is and you're likely to get crickets.

YMMV by school system, but that's the reality on the mean.

I looked at a lot of that stuff and drew most of it from memory, that's not the norm, (>I< was going to be an astronaut, after all) even among CAP members and recruits, and that pool would be inclined know about that more than most.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 02:47:42 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2017, 04:27:15 PM »

Quite a few people who join CAP have little or no aviation knowledge.  We have three new senior members. Two have never been in the military and one was a finance NCO in the AF. They all joined because of grandchildren and none of them know much about aerospace. This test which is easy for someone with that background, helps bring everyone up to at least a basic standard.

Meh. I showed it to my wife who has no aerospace background whatsoever and she goes "Why are they testing people on elementary school level history stuff?". It's kind of comical quite honestly because it's all basic common sense stuff that any reasonably intelligent person over the age of 10 or 12 should be able to reason through.

It's really not.  History is selectively taught in schools these days, and details on the history of something as "boring" as Aerospace,
isn't considered as important as fostering some of the more "agenda-based" curricula.

For people born in the 50's and especially the 60's, the space race, not to mention the political connectivity to it, was front-page news
and drove the majority of the technological advances of that era.

By the 70s, budget issues, the short-memory and attention span of the general public, not to mention its own success meant AE was
no longer "exciting", and started dropping from the zeitgeist, which just got progressively worse.

Ask the average adult what the "outrage of the day" is, or what the RHOBH are fighting about and you'll get 15 minutes of detail,
but ask them how an airplane actually flies, or who Chuck Yeager is and you're likely to get crickets.

YMMV by school system, but that's the reality on the mean.

I looked at a lot of that stuff and drew most of it from memory, that's not the norm, (>I< was going to be an astronaut, after all) even among CAP members and recruits, and that pool would be inclined know about that more than most.

Fair enough.  I guess I am just ahead of the curve or something then...whatever.

I just find it funny that with as much emphasis as is placed on AE  that so many people are able to skirt this.  Even in senior squadrons where you're not dealing with cadets and thus AE is basically pointless busy work during meetings they seem to focus on it to an almost ridiculous degree; seriously....it easily accounts for about 50% of our time in meetings. We could get so much more done that is actually useful if we did not have to do that stuff.

I guess I just take the tack that you suck it up, tackle the unpleasant bits and get them out of the way so they aren't in the way of more interesting stuff that may present itself down the pike.  That applies to so much in CAP that I pretty much have to just go "What am I eligible to pursue?" and run with it so that when another option comes up to knock out a promotion or proficiency requirement, I'm good to go.
Logged
I have complete faith in the continued absurdity of what ever is going on.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2017, 04:36:48 PM »

I just find it funny that with as much emphasis as is placed on AE  that so many people are able to skirt this.  Even in senior squadrons where you're not dealing with cadets and thus AE is basically pointless busy work during meetings they seem to focus on it to an almost ridiculous degree; seriously....it easily accounts for about 50% of our time in meetings. We could get so much more done that is actually useful if we did not have to do that stuff.

Such as?  AE is 1/3rd of the mission, contains an internal and external component and isn't supposed to be "optional".

In addition to educating members (internal), units are supposed to have a community outreach program (external)
which serves as both a recruiting tool and a GA advocate.

Trying to advocate for GA when you don't even know the "five forces of flight" or how to spell "Aeroplain" isn't going to
engender you at the local AOPA meeting.

Doubly so if the unit doesn't have cadets because that means it's >50%< of the unit's mission.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 92

« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2017, 05:38:46 PM »


Such as?  AE is 1/3rd of the mission, contains an internal and external component and isn't supposed to be "optional".

In addition to educating members (internal), units are supposed to have a community outreach program (external) which serves as both a recruiting tool and a GA advocate.

Trying to advocate for GA when you don't even know the "five forces of flight" or how to spell "Aeroplain" isn't going to engender you at the local AOPA meeting.

Doubly so if the unit doesn't have cadets because that means it's >50%< of the unit's mission.

I don't think we even have local AOPA meetings. LOL

All I know is that we do a bunch of "public days" or "movie nights" at the airport but since I usually work weekends, I will not able to take part with anything approaching regularity.  The only way I can get out of work for something CAP related is if it is ES related (which is really funny because if we get a missing aircraft find, I would likely immediately revert back to my "day job" so if I were ground team, I have to go behind a tree and ditch my CAP uniform). 

The joke has been made that my job as the assistant AE officer is just going to be keeping the flight simulator software updated and correctly configured so someone else can just boot it up and do their thing.  I'm biting my tongue in person and going along with what I am told to do because...well, chain of command. At least they are letting me pursue other qualifications at the same time so that I do not have to twiddle my thumbs and sit on my butt when something interesting is going on because I am just the squadron's assistant AE officer.

AE may well be "one-third of the mission" on paper (read as: "it's how we go about justifying our budgets in between ES missions") but from a practical standpoint, it seems to be pretty far down the list of things that most CAP members I have met are really enthusiastic about giving up their weekend for.  It seems to be the CAP equivalent of a mandatory "morale event" or "fun run" in an active duty AF squadron: you do it because you have to.
Logged
I have complete faith in the continued absurdity of what ever is going on.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Not too good of a statistic
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.41 seconds with 20 queries.