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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Not too good of a statistic
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Author Topic: Not too good of a statistic  (Read 7519 times)
deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: LA-076

« on: May 27, 2017, 10:25:17 PM »

According to CAP 50-7, only 22% of Senior Members ever complete Level 2 of the senior member Professional Development Program.  That really surprised me.

MG
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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2017, 11:10:53 PM »

According to CAP 50-7, only 22% of Senior Members ever complete Level 2 of the senior member Professional Development Program.  That really surprised me.

MG


Little incentive to do so.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 223

« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2017, 12:26:42 AM »

I figured the bottleneck would be Level 3 and its conference requirement.

I wonder what the sticking point is with level 2. Tech ratings?  Or have they gotten fed up and dropped CAP at that point anyway?
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RazorbackPride
Recruit

Posts: 49

« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2017, 02:11:09 AM »

According to CAP 50-7, only 22% of Senior Members ever complete Level 2 of the senior member Professional Development Program.  That really surprised me.

MG


Little incentive to do so.

I know right, the pay is awful. It's almost like they want us to train and do things just out of a desire for volunteer service.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,059
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2017, 02:50:38 AM »

The problem for Level 2 is the CAP Officer Course. It requires a time commitment outside weekly meetings, and has a time limit for completion. These days, it's online, but it used to be an excruciatingly boring correspondence course, with a one year time limit, that many folks just didn't have the time or patience for.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
CyBorgII
Member

Posts: 56
Unit: USCG AUX

« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2017, 07:34:12 AM »

The problem for Level 2 is the CAP Officer Course. It requires a time commitment outside weekly meetings, and has a time limit for completion. These days, it's online, but it used to be an excruciatingly boring correspondence course, with a one year time limit, that many folks just didn't have the time or patience for.

That's how I did it way back in the day.  I remember it being about as stimulating as munching on stale cardboard.

My then-CC signed me up for it and when the monolithic pack of books arrived in the post I thought, "oh, man..."

If I'd been married at the time I don't know how I would have found time to do it.  I remember lots of evenings grinding away at the public library doing it, going straight there from work to do it.

It really was a gotta-wanna thing back then.  I don't know what the online course is like now.
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Whaddaya mean I ain't kind?  I'm just not YOUR kind!

Ex-CAP Captain, now CG Auxiliary, but still feel a great deal of affection for the many good people in CAP.
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,051

« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2017, 11:06:45 AM »

Hated that part of level two training back in the day...wading through 4 volumes of material.

Was part of the curriculum writing team for the Officer Basic Course in 2009-2010.   A good start then to incorporate technology with training...but needs to be updated.
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deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2017, 11:11:00 AM »

I can only look at this from a personal point of view which goes to the reason I joined CAP to start with and that was to give back to the community.  I have been in for 8 months now and have my technician rating as Communications officer for the squadron, am assistant PDO officer , a squadron mentor and have completed all requirements for Level 2 and started toward working on Level 3.  This is not meant to be a resume but when I joined I made a commitment to do the best job I could for the squadron.  I went through Hurricane Katrina and saw what that did to our home and maybe that was what made me realize what volunteerism really was and why that is one of the core values. 

MG
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,987

« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2017, 11:35:34 AM »

Before that number has any real meaning, it has to be vetted for who is included, information which is
not provided.  I would hazard the number is higher among members who actually show up, especially now that OBC is online.

With that said, after next Summer's "senior scramble", the number of members promoted past 2d Lt is going to start dropping
precipitously considering the new PD and TIG requirements. 

OBC will be required for 1st Lt, meaning there are going to be a lot less of those, and the conferences will be
too long a roe to hoe for many to ever get to Captain. Major and Lt Col will be out of reach of the majority of the membership.

It would be very interesting to know what the original intentions were in the 2014 changes - certainly it's not going to
incentivize a membership already under-performing to do more.

The proper way to change things would have been to tie PD to job assignment ("You must have 'x' to be 'y', and not before and not without..."), and
remove any subjectivity in promotions to insure those that put forth the effort aren't stymied by "double secret expectations".
That's a mission focused approached.

That, or just get rid of it altogether already...
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 850

« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2017, 11:35:47 AM »

Most would consider me a newbie since I've been in CAP less than two years. But in that time I have gone through MS, MO, AP, TMP, O-Ride Pilot and now MP. So whether its a SAREX or actual Mission, I am able to fill several slots as needed. I feel like I'm truly "giving back to my community" in those roles. So I see no incentive, and have no desire to "progress through the ranks". I'll never go past 2nd Lt.. I'm not a metal, ribbon or certificate type of person and don't wear "blues", so ribbons are not needed.

Everyone has their "own thing". I'm doing mine.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 11:39:47 AM by etodd » Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2017, 11:56:24 AM »

Most would consider me a newbie since I've been in CAP less than two years. But in that time I have gone through MS, MO, AP, TMP, O-Ride Pilot and now MP. So whether its a SAREX or actual Mission, I am able to fill several slots as needed. I feel like I'm truly "giving back to my community" in those roles. So I see no incentive, and have no desire to "progress through the ranks". I'll never go past 2nd Lt.. I'm not a metal, ribbon or certificate type of person and don't wear "blues", so ribbons are not needed.

Everyone has their "own thing". I'm doing mine.

In that case, why are you even a Lieutenant? You can do your ES thing as a Senior Member without Grade no problem.
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deepblue1947
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2017, 11:57:35 AM »

Before that number has any real meaning, it has to be vetted for who is included, information which is
not provided.  I would hazard the number is higher among members who actually show up, especially now that OBC is online.

With that said, after next Summer's "senior scramble", the number of members promoted past 2d Lt is going to start dropping
precipitously considering the new PD and TIG requirements. 

OBC will be required for 1st Lt, meaning there are going to be a lot less of those, and the conferences will be
too long a roe to hoe for many to ever get to Captain. Major and Lt Col will be out of reach of the majority of the membership.

It would be very interesting to know what the original intentions were in the 2014 changes - certainly it's not going to
incentivize a membership already under-performing to do more.

The proper way to change things would have been to tie PD to job assignment ("You must have 'x' to be 'y', and not before and not without..."), and
remove any subjectivity in promotions to insure those that put forth the effort aren't stymied by "double secret expectations".
That's a mission focused approached.

That, or just get rid of it altogether already...





All good and valid points. 
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 850

« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2017, 12:56:56 PM »

Most would consider me a newbie since I've been in CAP less than two years. But in that time I have gone through MS, MO, AP, TMP, O-Ride Pilot and now MP. So whether its a SAREX or actual Mission, I am able to fill several slots as needed. I feel like I'm truly "giving back to my community" in those roles. So I see no incentive, and have no desire to "progress through the ranks". I'll never go past 2nd Lt.. I'm not a metal, ribbon or certificate type of person and don't wear "blues", so ribbons are not needed.

Everyone has their "own thing". I'm doing mine.

In that case, why are you even a Lieutenant? You can do your ES thing as a Senior Member without Grade no problem.

Good question.  I didn't apply for it. When I hit the 6 month mark, the Squadron Commander announced at the next meeting that I was now a 2nd Lt.  Everyone clapped and slapped me on the back, and I'm like "why?".  LOL   Turns out in order to be a MP I had to fulfill all the same requirements, so the 6 month mark was all that was left. If he had asked me ahead of time I would have said not to bother with the paperwork.
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MS - MO - AP - MP
Briank
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2017, 01:04:51 PM »

For me, I don't expect to level 2 any time soon due to the tech requirement.  OBC was no big deal.  That can be knocked out pretty quick.  Completing tech in a speciality track however looks near impossible while working full time.  90% of the requirements there are fine, but there's that last 10% that are like "yeah, nope"
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FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,138

« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2017, 01:28:08 PM »

In CAP, grade and PD advancement are separate and have no realistic (if not theoretic) correlation.  That said, if a member wants to take the time, they will take the time to progress.  It isn't that difficult. I did it while raising a family, starting and conducting my business, and enjoying a rewarding life apart from the organization.  I found the effort rewarding.  It expanded my circle of friends, and experiences.  I even learned a thing or two about CAP. There are reasons, and then there are excuses for not progressing.  In any event, IMHO, if you're motivated, you'll make it thru level 5.
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N6RVT
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2017, 02:08:30 PM »

BefOBC will be required for 1st Lt, meaning there are going to be a lot less of those, and the conferences will be too long a roe to hoe for many to ever get to Captain. Major and Lt Col will be out of reach of the majority of the membership.

I think the wing conferences are required for Major.  Its all I need, and I've been a Captain since 1986.
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Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 301

« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2017, 02:33:46 PM »

[quote/]
I think the wing conferences are required for Major.  Its all I need, and I've been a Captain since 1986.
[/quote]

Under the old regs, you needed Level 3 for Major and that Level was the one that required the conferences. Under the new reg you need Level 3 for Captain and Level 4 (!!) for Major.

If you are currently a Captain, you have until August of 2018 (?) to be grandfathered to Major with only a Level 3. If you miss that date, you need Level 4. With your length of service as a Captain, and if you WANT to make Major, you've got about 14 months left to finish the requirements.

Your decision.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,987

« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2017, 03:15:09 PM »

Next June or July will be a great time for Wings and Regions to run their conferences.

After August, however,  don't look for year-over-year attendance to increase.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,051

« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2017, 03:30:59 PM »

In CAP, grade and PD advancement are separate and have no realistic (if not theoretic) correlation.  That said, if a member wants to take the time, they will take the time to progress.  It isn't that difficult. I did it while raising a family, starting and conducting my business, and enjoying a rewarding life apart from the organization.  I found the effort rewarding.  It expanded my circle of friends, and experiences.  I even learned a thing or two about CAP. There are reasons, and then there are excuses for not progressing.  In any event, IMHO, if you're motivated, you'll make it thru level 5.

Totally agree....almost same story word for word.    As a Chaplain when I joined in 1996--- all we had to do to advance to Lt Col was read two pamphlets and breathe (time-in-grade).  We were part of the "Special Recognition Program".  There were a few within our ranks that felt the if the Chaplain Corps was to be taken seriously in the area of professional development, that we needed to meet the same PD requirements as others (I received my GRW in 2001).  This change took place in 2008.  Until the change, we had chaplains who held the grade of Lt Col who had not progressed in their training past Level I!!!  Since then, chaplains serving at Group/Wing/Region and National levels need to attain the level of training commensurate with their grade/assignment.

I do not regret for one moment the hours/money etc spent as either a student or staff member in SLS/CLC/RSC-CCRSC/NSC or UCC.  It has allowed me the opportunity to see the "big picture" of CAP as well as interacting with some outstanding CAP members/leaders.  It is a sacrifice at time...but it is worth it personally and professionally.
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N6RVT
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: PCR-CA-080

« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2017, 04:09:40 PM »

If you are currently a Captain, you have until August of 2018 (?) to be grandfathered to Major with only a Level 3. If you miss that date, you need Level 4. With your length of service as a Captain, and if you WANT to make Major, you've got about 14 months left to finish the requirements.

Your decision.
All I need is for a conference to happen during that time that I can actually get to.  However since all I need to do that that point is have my master logistics rating input to have level 4 done and be eligible under the new rules anyway, the time constraint really isn't an issue in my case.

But then..... I'm done.  I see no way under current conditions that I will ever make LTC.
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Dwight J. Dutton, CAPT CAP
Mitchell 1975 (before numbers)
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Not too good of a statistic
 


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