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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2017, 09:12:17 PM »

I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.
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audiododd
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: PCR-CA-096

« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2017, 12:22:33 AM »

From CAPR 20-1...

D.14.c.  The wing commander appoints group, squadron, and flight commanders.

From CAPR 35-5.... 

3.2. Commander Appointments. Members who meet the minimum eligibility requirements above may be advanced to a grade commensurate with the position, not to exceed those indicated below:

     3.2.4. Squadron Commander. Wing commanders may advance a member to the grade of first lieutenant concurrent with the memberís appointment as squadron commander.

6.4  NCO Transition to Officer Grades. NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position as outlined in paragraph 3.2., without meeting a Promotion Board. Upon completion of the command assignment, the member may return to their previous NCO status upon request, without meeting a promotion board. Time-in-grade served in the officer position may be used toward future NCO advancements.

A few notes from my reading....it says that Wing Commanders MAY advance a member to 1st Lt with their appointment.  It doesn't say they WILL.  It also says that NCO's will be eligible to transition to the officer grade, not that they must.  It's the typical vagueness of regulations.

To ME...that reads that NCO's CAN be appointed as a Squadron Commander and that they MAY be promoted to 1st Lt for the duration of their command (but don't HAVE to be promoted).  It also looks like an NCO that assumes command doesn't necessarily have to go back to their NCO grade when they complete their tenure.  That's just my quick skimming of the regulations.
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FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,138

« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2017, 08:50:02 AM »

^ That's how the regulation should be interpreted.  So, basically this is truly just a uniform thread after all.  What you wish to wear on your sleeve or shoulder is up to you....  ;D
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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
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Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2017, 11:43:19 AM »

From CAPR 20-1...

D.14.c.  The wing commander appoints group, squadron, and flight commanders.

From CAPR 35-5.... 

3.2. Commander Appointments. Members who meet the minimum eligibility requirements above may be advanced to a grade commensurate with the position, not to exceed those indicated below:

     3.2.4. Squadron Commander. Wing commanders may advance a member to the grade of first lieutenant concurrent with the memberís appointment as squadron commander.

6.4  NCO Transition to Officer Grades. NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position as outlined in paragraph 3.2., without meeting a Promotion Board. Upon completion of the command assignment, the member may return to their previous NCO status upon request, without meeting a promotion board. Time-in-grade served in the officer position may be used toward future NCO advancements.

A few notes from my reading....it says that Wing Commanders MAY advance a member to 1st Lt with their appointment.  It doesn't say they WILL.  It also says that NCO's will be eligible to transition to the officer grade, not that they must.  It's the typical vagueness of regulations.

To ME...that reads that NCO's CAN be appointed as a Squadron Commander and that they MAY be promoted to 1st Lt for the duration of their command (but don't HAVE to be promoted).  It also looks like an NCO that assumes command doesn't necessarily have to go back to their NCO grade when they complete their tenure.  That's just my quick skimming of the regulations.


Nice find, except for the part where the reboot of an active NCO corps specifically said they wouldn't be able to hold that officer position. Not surprising on the reg side, since it's been 3.5 years, and not much progress was made in the program to begin with.
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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 143

« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2017, 11:54:51 AM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,609

« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2017, 12:02:15 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.
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Майор Хаткевич
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Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2017, 12:30:17 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.


This, and again, the verbiage of the people behind the whole NCO "reboot".


https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/P052_015_21F7ACED34F45.pdf


Quote
Tailoring the Challenge This principle of tying leadership skill, rank, and position together is all about providing a tailor-made leadership challenge for each cadet. However, this may result in the squadron needing to keep some staff positions vacant. For example, if the ranking cadet is an airman, their position still should be limited to element leader because we want to match them with a job that is appropriate for their leadership skill and rank Ė it would be premature to appoint that cadet as cadet commander. If the ranking cadet is a master sergeant, that cadet could serve as flight sergeant or first sergeant, but higher positions like flight commander and cadet commander should remain vacant. By assigning cadets to positions that match their rank and skill, we ensure each cadet has a leadership challenge that is appropriate. Further, by keeping high positions vacant until cadets achieve rank commensurate with the positions, we give the ranking cadet(s) additional challenges to strive towards and a reason to pursue promotions. As the cadets advance in CAP and mature as leaders, they can gradually be promoted into higher positions on the cadet staff.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 728

« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2017, 12:31:52 PM »

For me it just adds to the confusion of CAP.  If a person want to hold a command position then they should be an officer.  I thought one of the main points for even having a CAP NCO corp was that it was for those former military NCOs who did not want to have command positions. 

As has been stated on this board many times regarding the CAP NCO program, it is a solution in desperate need of a problem to solve.

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Agreed.  Also you are doing a disservice to that cadet enlisted if you are putting them in roles such as "cadet commander" and "cadet flight commander."  What is their incentive to actually become a cadet officer?  I have seen a C/SSgt with the title of "cadet commander."  There is no need for that and you are putting responsibilities on that cadet that they likely are not ready for. 

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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 143

« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2017, 12:32:41 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Senior enlisted aren't supposed to be put into command positions, but we do it anyway. All because mushy language in the regs allows it. It's pretty much the same thing.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,980

« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2017, 01:05:00 PM »

Striped cadets are routinely put into command positions, so why should the standard be any different for seniors? As someone once justified it to me, "Do you think they can't do the job?"

Cadet enlisted aren't supposed to be put into "command" positions, but we do it anyways. Not even close to a good comparison.

Senior enlisted aren't supposed to be put into command positions, but we do it anyway. All because mushy language in the regs allows it. It's pretty much the same thing.

That some units do it doesn't make it right or "the same thing".

Those CC's who have read 52-16, 20-1, as well have any experience working with adolescents, don't take the expedient route to staffing.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 97
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2017, 02:38:23 PM »

I don't know if anyone has seen this, but here is the program that was sent to (and approved by) the Air Force..
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,138

« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2017, 03:03:23 PM »

Programs started by previous commanders may not have the same priority when the new one takes command. It's a fact of life. OE...where did that go?  NCO PROGRAM? No longer on the radar. I really enjoy the discussion, however I doubt we'll see anything coming from NHQ..
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Майор Хаткевич
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Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2017, 03:59:23 PM »

For perspective, we should be planning/into phase III now - adding non former military NCOs. Yet I still get questions on just what the difference between NCO and O SMs is, and if the PD is the same.
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RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2017, 05:47:44 PM »

I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.

Yes, the Regs did.  Now they don't.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,864

« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2017, 09:22:11 PM »

I think everybody thought that NCO's could not be Commanders. But the regs never said that.

Yes, the Regs did.  Now they don't.

According to Sardragon, he checked his file of old publications and even in 2010 the regs didn't say that.
But he said he would check further back when he can find those files.
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Flying Pig
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,028

« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2017, 07:39:47 AM »

In CAP, what it usually comes down to is the person who says they have time to do it gets the job.  Its not going to matter if you have 3 stripes, 11 stripes or a 1st Lt bar. 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 09:24:08 AM by Flying Pig » Logged
Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2017, 03:23:23 PM »

Curiosity, I saw this on my FB feed... Has any commander on here seen this in their eServices?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/442238282464162/permalink/1388820944472553/

Quote
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS:

FROM: CAP/CC and CAP/COMMAND CHIEF SUBJECT: Senior Member Noncommissioned Officer Recruiting Drive

1. The Civil Air Patrol's NonCommissioned Officer (NCO) Program is off and running and we are looking for interested members to join the ranks of the NCO Corps. The CAP NCO Corps is a diverse group of individuals, each bringing unique professional knowledge, skills, and abilities they have attained in their years of military service to our country. They are well suited to mentor CAP's members in the methods and procedures of military organization, leadership and management. The CAP NCO Program is also designed to provide commanders with greater access to the professional military knowledge that the NCO Corps can readily provide.

2. Do you have members in your unit who now hold a CAP Officer grade but previously held an NCO grade in the Armed Forces? If so, this is a chance for those individuals to transition to the NCO Corps and possibly serve in a grade higher than their previous military NCO grade. During the period 1 March 2017 through 28 February 2018, the National Commander has authorized senior members who now hold officer grades to transition to an NCO grade that is commensurate with their CAP experience as well as their military experience. The chart below outlines what grade current CAP officers who held military NCO grades would be able to transition to during this recruiting period. These individuals are not required to meet promotion boards but must submit a CAP Form 2 through channels to receive the appropriate NCO grade...

I haven't seen the rest of the message or the chart. Can anyone care to share?
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
SGT, ARNG (Out!)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, (17)
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
winterg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 743
Unit: SER-FL-182

« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2017, 03:38:44 PM »

I can share the full memo when I get home. It was announced at my unit on the 2nd of this month.

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2017, 03:41:42 PM »

Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
SGT, ARNG (Out!)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, (17)
CTWG Encampment 09, 11, 16
NER Cadet Leadership School 10
winterg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 743
Unit: SER-FL-182

« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2017, 03:51:14 PM »

Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
Here's the full 23 FEB 17 memo with the advanced promotion requirements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2CzkgrZ6hyMN1BQX1VMWW9Hczg/view?usp=drivesdk


Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
 


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