Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 21, 2017, 08:58:17 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
dmac and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 Print
Author Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??  (Read 13753 times)
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,139

« Reply #200 on: August 26, 2017, 12:31:58 AM »

I would argue the point that every military NCO would benefit our cadet program. I served with some excellent examples and some who wouldn't understand leadership if their life depended on it.

Logged
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 658
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #201 on: August 26, 2017, 02:21:30 AM »


[. . .]And, given that there is so very little difference between what CAP NCOs do, or can do, and what CAP non-NCOs do, or can do, that's why so many members just don't see the NCO program as much more than something tailor fit to a narrow audience for personal preference reasons.

My position is that -in CP at least- NCOs can indeed do at least one thing that officers cannot.  And that is to model effective  NCO leadership styles.  As a former serviceman, I hope that you would agree that military NCOs lead with different techniques and styles than officers.  I grant you that most cadets never see a CAP NCO and turn out just fine, but since every cadet has to serve effectively as a cadet NCO, it can help to have role models, mentors, and trainers that are successful NCOs.

It's just a bonus that under our current system that NCOs come to us pre-trained and experienced as small unit leaders.  And are generally skilled in small unit administrative and support duties.

Again, we obviously have a successful program without a significant number of NCOs.  But we could be much, much better if we had more.

Quote
The only things I'm asking are that the reality of the "non-NCO years" not be forgotten and that the success of those years not be glossed over, but given due consideration during discussions.

I'm certainly no historian, but how sure are you that we were ever completely NCO-free?  I get that there was a time when we didn't appoint any, but were the existing NCOs forcibly reclassified or allowed to stay until retirement?  (Which usually means death for long-term senior members.)

Your bud, 

Ned

I recall it being NCO-free. It came about, as was explained at the time, because of three things: 1) CAP was using the NCO grades for SMs who joined between 18-21, as well as for members over 21 who did not wish to become officers - meaning that we could have 20-year old MSGts or 80-year old MSgts with no rhyme or reason; 2) There were issues that came about when billeting or granting club privileges on military bases to CAP members, who found themselves separated due to grade; 3) A studied realization that there was little or no difference in duties and responsibilities between CAP NCOs and officers.

I know there was a provision in 39-1 allowing stripes to be worn if earned before 1972, but don't recall actually seeing any. It would be better to consult the personnel regs, but I seem to recall something about them being given a cut-off date and told to make a choice of officer or SMWOG. And, some did, indeed, quit rather than make the choice. Maybe the personnel regs changed while 39-1 did not? Or maybe there was one hold out in the wilds of Wyoming, but I never saw any or heard of any after the tap was turned off.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 02:28:44 AM by Mitchell 1969 » Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 658
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #202 on: August 26, 2017, 02:34:08 AM »


Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.

Like, say, compared to a non-prior-service, non-prior- cadet Senior Member 2d Lt?   8)

I fully understand that,  to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, "about half of the CAP NCOs will be below average."  One of them will be the worst NCO in CAP.

But essentially by definition, every military NCO has training and experience that would immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program.

That's my point.

But not every military NCO is interested in joining a volunteer organization to use that training and experience to immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program. If they did, they'd already be here, either as CAP officers or as CAP NCOs. That's (one of) my point(s).
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 695

« Reply #203 on: August 26, 2017, 01:27:06 PM »


Unfortunately not all NCO have the leadership training that so many people on here state.

Like, say, compared to a non-prior-service, non-prior- cadet Senior Member 2d Lt?   8)

I fully understand that,  to paraphrase Garrison Keillor, "about half of the CAP NCOs will be below average."  One of them will be the worst NCO in CAP.

But essentially by definition, every military NCO has training and experience that would immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program.

That's my point.

But not every military NCO is interested in joining a volunteer organization to use that training and experience to immeasurably benefit our Cadet Program. If they did, they'd already be here, either as CAP officers or as CAP NCOs. That's (one of) my point(s).

Very true.  If a military NCO really wants to be a mentor to cadets they will do it even if they can't wear stripes or officer rank.  If either being an NCO or officer is keeping a person from being a mentor to a cadet then we are better off without them.  A good leader and mentor would not be focused on wearing stripes or clusters, they would be focused on be a good mentor.
Logged
1st Lt Thompson
Seasoned Member

Posts: 349
Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #204 on: August 26, 2017, 06:09:01 PM »

Quote
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon. - Napoleon Bonaparte

I will agree and disagree. People have many different reasons for being here. If they are truly motivated to mentor Cadets, then true, it won't matter if they have stripes, bars, oak leaves etc.

If stripes, bars or oak leaves get them in the door, however, and they turn out to be great mentors to our Cadet's, I wouldn't say that we're better off without them if the rank was their original reason to join.

If a member does 60 hours of community service just to get a ribbon, that doesn't make his/her service irrelevant.

If a member does GTM or MS training just to get a shiny badge, but then actually shows up and performs when called upon for a mission, it doesn't make their service irrelevant because they originally did it for a badge.

I'd say if stripes get them in the door, great! If being a mentor gets them in the door, welcome and thank you. Whatever the reason they join, we're probably better off having them then not.

If we really won't be better off having them, that should come out during the review board process before allowing them to join.

I think after all of these pages, we can agree that NCO's are here to stay, there's no real direction for the program, some people like having NCO's, some people don't, etc. etc. Time to move on with more important things.
Logged
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #205 on: August 26, 2017, 06:50:42 PM »

But we get circularly back to "NCOs as CAP Officers can do the same thing."
Logged
1st Lt Thompson
Seasoned Member

Posts: 349
Unit: GLR-MI-063

« Reply #206 on: August 26, 2017, 07:14:29 PM »

But we get circularly back to "NCOs as CAP Officers can do the same thing."

And we will keep circling back, and this thread will never end!
Logged
1st Lt Matt Thompson
Squadron Leadership Officer, Squadron Historian
UDF, GTM3, MSA, MS

Mitchell - 31 OCT 98 (#44670) Earhart - 22 MAY 01 (#11401)
Red 6
Newbie

Posts: 3
Unit: PCR-OR-055

« Reply #207 on: Yesterday at 08:40:28 PM »

Long-time reader, first time writing a post. I'm a retired Soldier, 1SG (E-8). I was a cadet in CAP in the 70s and earned my Billy Mitchell, which apparently Maxwell has no record of since they told me that old files like that get purged after a certain number of years. But I digress and this is the wrong section for that gripe.

As a new senior member of CAP, the NCO program was part of the reason why I re-joined, but it wasn't a make-or-break thing. I would just like to offer my own reasoning, not for or against either viewpoint of officer versus NCO. A further piece of information is the five years I spent as a Scouter in BSA. My son was a Scout for almost ten years and when he crossed over into Boy Scouts, I became an adult volunteer (Aka Scouter). I was on our troop committee, and served as the Quartermaster, plus I was active in our local council. I got my Wood Badge, (I used to be a Fox, and a good old Fox too...) and subsequently staffed a Wood Badge course.

Here was the problem I ran into. There was a long-time core of Scouters in the troop and at the council level and I never felt like I belonged to the club. Don't get me wrong. BSA is a very open and welcoming organization. But there was a definite feeling of "We've got all this, all we want is your help and only where we need you." A lot of Scouters spend 20 or more years in the same troop or council. As a relative newcomer to BSA, I didn't feel unwelcomed, but I did perceive that definite cubby holes existed that were essentially walled off to folks like me.

Contrast that with CAP, which not only welcomes me, finds a slot that matches my skill set perfectly (composite squadron leadership officer), but also asks me if I'd like to convert to SMSgt, or go the officer route. For me, the decision was easy. I was an NCO for most of my career, and feel very comfortable in the role. Basically, it's who I feel like I am. To me, being an officer or NCO in CAP isn't necessarily about the specific grade, and I understand that many former NCO's transition to the officer side when they join. That's excellent, but for me, it just didn't feel right.

I realize that from a practical perspective, there isn't a difference between what an NCO or officer does in a slot like mine. But it doesn't matter to me, and since I'm one of the retired NCO's this program is aimed at, I wanted to share my thoughts and my opinion.
Logged
grunt82abn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 200

« Reply #208 on: Yesterday at 08:53:42 PM »

Long-time reader, first time writing a post. I'm a retired Soldier, 1SG (E-8). I was a cadet in CAP in the 70s and earned my Billy Mitchell, which apparently Maxwell has no record of since they told me that old files like that get purged after a certain number of years. But I digress and this is the wrong section for that gripe.

As a new senior member of CAP, the NCO program was part of the reason why I re-joined, but it wasn't a make-or-break thing. I would just like to offer my own reasoning, not for or against either viewpoint of officer versus NCO. A further piece of information is the five years I spent as a Scouter in BSA. My son was a Scout for almost ten years and when he crossed over into Boy Scouts, I became an adult volunteer (Aka Scouter). I was on our troop committee, and served as the Quartermaster, plus I was active in our local council. I got my Wood Badge, (I used to be a Fox, and a good old Fox too...) and subsequently staffed a Wood Badge course.

Here was the problem I ran into. There was a long-time core of Scouters in the troop and at the council level and I never felt like I belonged to the club. Don't get me wrong. BSA is a very open and welcoming organization. But there was a definite feeling of "We've got all this, all we want is your help and only where we need you." A lot of Scouters spend 20 or more years in the same troop or council. As a relative newcomer to BSA, I didn't feel unwelcomed, but I did perceive that definite cubby holes existed that were essentially walled off to folks like me.

Contrast that with CAP, which not only welcomes me, finds a slot that matches my skill set perfectly (composite squadron leadership officer), but also asks me if I'd like to convert to SMSgt, or go the officer route. For me, the decision was easy. I was an NCO for most of my career, and feel very comfortable in the role. Basically, it's who I feel like I am. To me, being an officer or NCO in CAP isn't necessarily about the specific grade, and I understand that many former NCO's transition to the officer side when they join. That's excellent, but for me, it just didn't feel right.

I realize that from a practical perspective, there isn't a difference between what an NCO or officer does in a slot like mine. But it doesn't matter to me, and since I'm one of the retired NCO's this program is aimed at, I wanted to share my thoughts and my opinion.
Hit the nail on the head 1SG! I'm glad others on here feel the same way I do! AATW


TSGT Sean Riley
IL-042
Logged
Sean Riley, TSGT
US Army 1987 to 1994, WIARNG 1994 to 2008
DoD Firefighter Paramedic 2000 to Present
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,043
Unit: SI

« Reply #209 on: Today at 03:56:41 AM »

Long-time reader, first time writing a post. I'm a retired Soldier, 1SG (E-8). I was a cadet in CAP in the 70s and earned my Billy Mitchell, which apparently Maxwell has no record of since they told me that old files like that get purged after a certain number of years. But I digress and this is the wrong section for that gripe.

As a new senior member of CAP, the NCO program was part of the reason why I re-joined, but it wasn't a make-or-break thing. I would just like to offer my own reasoning, not for or against either viewpoint of officer versus NCO. A further piece of information is the five years I spent as a Scouter in BSA. My son was a Scout for almost ten years and when he crossed over into Boy Scouts, I became an adult volunteer (Aka Scouter). I was on our troop committee, and served as the Quartermaster, plus I was active in our local council. I got my Wood Badge, (I used to be a Fox, and a good old Fox too...) and subsequently staffed a Wood Badge course.

Here was the problem I ran into. There was a long-time core of Scouters in the troop and at the council level and I never felt like I belonged to the club. Don't get me wrong. BSA is a very open and welcoming organization. But there was a definite feeling of "We've got all this, all we want is your help and only where we need you." A lot of Scouters spend 20 or more years in the same troop or council. As a relative newcomer to BSA, I didn't feel unwelcomed, but I did perceive that definite cubby holes existed that were essentially walled off to folks like me.

Contrast that with CAP, which not only welcomes me, finds a slot that matches my skill set perfectly (composite squadron leadership officer), but also asks me if I'd like to convert to SMSgt, or go the officer route. For me, the decision was easy. I was an NCO for most of my career, and feel very comfortable in the role. Basically, it's who I feel like I am. To me, being an officer or NCO in CAP isn't necessarily about the specific grade, and I understand that many former NCO's transition to the officer side when they join. That's excellent, but for me, it just didn't feel right.

I realize that from a practical perspective, there isn't a difference between what an NCO or officer does in a slot like mine. But it doesn't matter to me, and since I'm one of the retired NCO's this program is aimed at, I wanted to share my thoughts and my opinion.

If you PM me your name and year, I'll see if I can dig it out of the cap newspapers they used to publish them in. I found 2 awards that way recently for rejoining members.
Logged
indiaXray
Recruit

Posts: 13
Unit: MER-DC-026

« Reply #210 on: Today at 09:11:59 AM »

At present, as has been noted, since NCO's can do (almost) all the same things as CAP Officers.  That can lead to an existential "What is the point?" moment for individuals who prefer stripes to bars, but also for the NCO track as a whole. Individuals are left to figure that question on their own, and the organisation seems confused.  Would defined NCO-specific roles, duties, and NCO-specific training at all levels of the organisation help to give the NCO initiative purpose?  Is it just a recruitment carrot/handshake for ex-SNCOs? Is it a bureaucratic leftover from a outmoded era?  Is it an homage to organisational history?  Does the programme provide value in its current form?  If not, does that mean as an organisation should change?  If so, how? Does CAP redesign its organisational structure to have proportionally more NCOs than officers to be on par with our parent service? Making officer rank more selective.  Should CAP invent a rank structure analogous to the parent service, but different and uniquely CAP?  Should CAP ditch rank altogether?

It's an organisational structure & culture question and no small challenge to implement.
« Last Edit: Today at 09:17:01 AM by indiaXray » Logged
Squadron Activities Officer
Squadron Professional Development Officer
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 860

« Reply #211 on: Today at 09:35:49 AM »

If the claim is that NCOs can do everything officers can, because it's all just a matter of titles, then why wouldn't the military just do away with NCOs and officers, and assign individuals to roles respective of a job function and not titles?

I would say because it's more so than just tradition. Distinguishing between NCOs and Officers sets a heraldry for discipline and distinction through title. And that distinction is further carried through different training "pipelines," which further break down into our various individuals are placed into those job roles.

I wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate, at the small unit level, to accommodate a "civilian" service role, whereas you can have administrators and clerks hold a duty position and have access to certain information without expecting them to go through the professional development process. There are a lot of CAP officers that are left in the dark, not just because they don't have the mentoring they need to succeed, but they, frankly, don't have a clue to begin with and aren't really searching for answers. To be simple with it, officership may not be something they're "cut out" for.

I firmly disagree with ditching rank. If it's something that can't be implemented at the paramilitary level, why should it be implemented at the military level, or in a police force, or fire department? All of these organizations have a historical tradition of assigning titles to back up authority to back up duty. Sure, each individual force has a flexibility to manipulate that chain to suit its internal needs. But that's not much different than a corporation, say, manufacturing, to a degree.

We're a paramilitary corporation. Many of our members come from a military or law enforcement background. They've carried that knowledge with them on joining CAP, albeit a different mission to a degree, but often intertwined with their former. I would rather see a further development of "career" progression and training than to cut out what we call people.

NCOs have a distinct role. A Master Sergeant is not training to become a Captain, not does he want to be. Similarly, the Captain is not training to become a Master Sergeant. And I can guarantee you that the CAP Master Sergeant, because of his background, knows exactly what his role is supposed to be. It's when the Captain, who went from college to working in media marketing and has no really concept of what a "mission" is and only holds that rank because he's a CFI, starts to misunderstand the Officer-NCO relationship that it falls apart.

As a CAP officer, I know the exact job of my Staff Sergeant. We bounce feedback off one another continuously, and we lean on one another as an officer and NCO. I knew him back when he was a CAP officer, and this is by far the best transition we could have made because we're both comfortable in the relationship and how to effectively work together.
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 695

« Reply #212 on: Today at 10:16:55 AM »

If the claim is that NCOs can do everything officers can, because it's all just a matter of titles, then why wouldn't the military just do away with NCOs and officers, and assign individuals to roles respective of a job function and not titles?

I would say because it's more so than just tradition. Distinguishing between NCOs and Officers sets a heraldry for discipline and distinction through title. And that distinction is further carried through different training "pipelines," which further break down into our various individuals are placed into those job roles.

I wonder if it wouldn't be appropriate, at the small unit level, to accommodate a "civilian" service role, whereas you can have administrators and clerks hold a duty position and have access to certain information without expecting them to go through the professional development process. There are a lot of CAP officers that are left in the dark, not just because they don't have the mentoring they need to succeed, but they, frankly, don't have a clue to begin with and aren't really searching for answers. To be simple with it, officership may not be something they're "cut out" for.

I firmly disagree with ditching rank. If it's something that can't be implemented at the paramilitary level, why should it be implemented at the military level, or in a police force, or fire department? All of these organizations have a historical tradition of assigning titles to back up authority to back up duty. Sure, each individual force has a flexibility to manipulate that chain to suit its internal needs. But that's not much different than a corporation, say, manufacturing, to a degree.

We're a paramilitary corporation. Many of our members come from a military or law enforcement background. They've carried that knowledge with them on joining CAP, albeit a different mission to a degree, but often intertwined with their former. I would rather see a further development of "career" progression and training than to cut out what we call people.

NCOs have a distinct role. A Master Sergeant is not training to become a Captain, not does he want to be. Similarly, the Captain is not training to become a Master Sergeant. And I can guarantee you that the CAP Master Sergeant, because of his background, knows exactly what his role is supposed to be. It's when the Captain, who went from college to working in media marketing and has no really concept of what a "mission" is and only holds that rank because he's a CFI, starts to misunderstand the Officer-NCO relationship that it falls apart.

As a CAP officer, I know the exact job of my Staff Sergeant. We bounce feedback off one another continuously, and we lean on one another as an officer and NCO. I knew him back when he was a CAP officer, and this is by far the best transition we could have made because we're both comfortable in the relationship and how to effectively work together.

Interesting insights about a "civilian" service role.  The military had embraced that very same concept in the form of contractors and civil service employees.  Neither group is tied to the PD/uniform requirements of the main force.  I would say that we have something similar but only informally.  Since there is no compulsion to advance in rank or PD within CAP, a person can join and be a SM or 2d Lt for their entire career in CAP.  There is still the uniform requirement however but I know of many squadrons that really do not enforce uniform wear on some or all members.  Is that a correct course of action?  No.

I don't think NHQ is willing to create another membership category to accommodate those who just want to contribute but don't want to wear a uniform for one reason or another.  Maybe this is something that warrants further investigation.  Is there really a solid reason for every person at a squadron meeting to have to wear a uniform (outside of current regulations of course)?
Logged
vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 221

« Reply #213 on: Today at 10:28:43 AM »

Interesting insights about a "civilian" service role.  The military had embraced that very same concept in the form of contractors and civil service employees.  Neither group is tied to the PD/uniform requirements of the main force.  I would say that we have something similar but only informally.  Since there is no compulsion to advance in rank or PD within CAP, a person can join and be a SM or 2d Lt for their entire career in CAP.  There is still the uniform requirement however but I know of many squadrons that really do not enforce uniform wear on some or all members.  Is that a correct course of action?  No.

There's no "compulsion" to even show up, let alone do a good job--thats the difference between us and the military or even the civilian workforce and a big part of the problem.

Also even if you think wearing a golf shirt is a uniform there's already no requirement to wear one in most situations.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #214 on: Today at 10:41:34 AM »

If the claim is that NCOs can do everything officers can, because it's all just a matter of titles, then why wouldn't the military just do away with NCOs and officers, and assign individuals to roles respective of a job function and not titles?

Not "NCOs", CAP-NCOs.

Military NCOs have a very important and specifically defined role, CAP-NCOs do not.  They do not have special force powers in regards to cadets,
the majority of CAP squadrons do no operate in a fashion which makes NCOs any more, or less valuable then any other similarly-capable member, or for that matter a parent.

The Civil Air Patrol, as an organization, could and does benefit greatly with the membership of military NCOs, but that is because of their mindset and professionalism generally,
not because of any special skill they bring to the table in regards to CAP's missions. This is no different then CAP benefiting from EMTs who can't hang IV's, lawyers who can't draft contracts,
pilots who don't fly, or liberal arts majors who don't make fries.

In fact, when you consider that the general timbre of the cadet program over the last several years has been an increased emphasis in AE & STEM, while pushing towards
a more corporate / academic  framework for the curriculum and many activities, the insinuation that "more military" people are somehow "better by design" then everyone else
doesn't even fit the vector of the organization.

As to the idea of "civilian augmentees", seriously, no.  As it is we can't compel members to duty and training, and there's a suggestion now that anybody can
just "do things"?  Has it gotten that bad from a manpower standpoint?
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 860

« Reply #215 on: Today at 10:52:16 AM »

The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,805

« Reply #216 on: Today at 10:57:00 AM »

The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 860

« Reply #217 on: Today at 11:01:15 AM »

The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.

The OP asked about wearing CAP stripes. Half the comments here bring up whether or not CAP needs NCOs at all, and another faction has addressed using it to recruit prior service NCOs as part of a membership drive.

So the question still remains.


To quote you, Sir:

It's been 4 YEARS

How much more time is needed to decide what the program will be? I've said it before, but very soon, the THIRD National Commander will have this on their desk. Saying "they are working on it", isn't very promising.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,830

« Reply #218 on: Today at 11:01:22 AM »

The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.

To be fair, NHQ has insinuated that the answer is interdependent, while history, even in the last several years since the new program was announced,
shows otherwise.  I would hazard this is an unanswerable question in the current context.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 860

« Reply #219 on: Today at 11:11:21 AM »

The role of a CAP NCO, though, is not solely defined to a Cadet Program.

So, I guess there's a question to be asked:
What is the question in itself---are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP members, or are we trying to recruit military NCOs to be CAP NCOs?

Stuttering George....can you use the search function and review the couple dozen pages that already answer this question? Please.

To be fair, NHQ has insinuated that the answer is interdependent, while history, even in the last several years since the new program was announced,
shows otherwise.  I would hazard this is an unanswerable question in the current context.

Hence my point.

You have people that see CAP NCOs as a selling point to bring in members.

CAP had prior service NCOs before there were CAP NCOs. The role of the CAP NCO was introduced, and since modified, although a slow progression to actually develop it.

And Thrawn pointed out, himself, before his little tirade, that it's been "under development" for a long time now. And I would suppose it's because this very question is still answered. Many people in this organization today don't know what the difference between an NCO and an officer is, and they don't know how to incorporate those difference at both the unit staffing level and in training the collective of the NCO corps.

It's only an assumption, but I would guess that, seeing as there are more NCOs than officers in the military, there are probably more CAP members who were NCOs than were officers during their service. So of these NCOs, how many became CAP officers, and why? Do they see a difference in the benefit of being an officer versus an NCO, from a progression standpoint or a duty standpoint? Does that difference even exist?

If someone is going to recruit a prior NCO to join CAP, using their NCO status as a recruiting tool, then I would say you're trying to suggest to that individual that there is a benefit of them being an NCO, versus a prior service member. Or is it their level of experience? Hanging stripes in someone's face, going "Get these back" is an indicator, to me, that you're trying to recruit NCOs to be NCOs. But those of us already in CAP see that there is little distinction between a CAP NCO and a CAP officer.

So which is it? Are we recruiting NCOs, or are we recruiting members?

This topic derailed from the OP about 7 pages of comments back. So I think it's safe to say we can get over whether or not we're answering his question from January.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.463 seconds with 19 queries.
click here to email me