Basic encampment before staff job

[cobra6987]

So, I know there is at least a general rule that before you can be encampment staff, you have to complete a basic encampment first. is ther actually a reg that states this? I may just be blind, but I'm not having any luck find it.

[CAPDCCMOM]

Cobra, I just looked at CAPP 52-24. Like you, I did not find a specific regulation. I guess it is "understood" and that is never a good thing. If anyone can cite a reg for this. I would be grateful.

[Eclipse]

The is no regulation as such, however it is a basic tenant of the encampment program that all cadets must
attend at least once as students.

The experience of students vs. cadre is very different, with the student or "follower" experience considered
an important part of being a cadet.

There really is no "best interest of the cadet(s)" justification for the allowance, but ultimately it would be up to
the respective encampment commander.

[abdsp51]

Are you asking for yourself or for cadets?

Staffing for encampments is left up to the Commandant for Cadets.  For encampments and other activities it is usually a prerequisite that you have been to an encampment first.  I have never seen something hard fast and written in 52-16 nor 52-24.  I will say that this is generally a good rule of thumb and best practice.

Since every wing is different I would advise you contact the POC for staffing.   I know for events I have planned and led prior experience was a must for staffing.  And for some of these activities attending encampment was a must. 

But again every wing is different and you need to talk to the POC.

[cobra6987]

Are you asking for yourself or for cadets?

I was asking for a cadet. I was reading an awards package that stated his first (and only) encampment was acting like a senior member essentially. I know at the time he was a SNCO, but I've seen quite a few SNCOs that had to go through basic encampment.

I wasn't apart of the encampment planning so unfortunately I don't know what rules were in place at the time. I just saw that statement and it made me go "Wait, what!" because I feel like he was possibly robbed of good information and a great experience.

[abdsp51]

Are you asking for yourself or for cadets?

I was asking for a cadet. I was reading an awards package that stated his first (and only) encampment was acting like a senior member essentially. I know at the time he was a SNCO, but I've seen quite a few SNCOs that had to go through basic encampment.

I wasn't apart of the encampment planning so unfortunately I don't know what rules were in place at the time. I just saw that statement and it made me go "Wait, what!" because I feel like he was possibly robbed of good information and a great experience.

This sounds fishy.  His only encampment and he was acting like a senior member?  If he has only been to one encampment unless he is a rock star cadet he should have been a student.  Most activity directors do not want to hire someone who has never been to prerequisite activity especially encampment. 

Most encampment commandants will usually require that a cadet applying for staff at encampment have attended one as a student first.

[Mitchell 1969]

I've seen it done, but not often.

In 1969, after a couple years worth of small encampments due to base unavailability, CA Wing found themselves with a 200+ slot encampment. Since the usual progression hadn't produced a potential cadre that was big enough, a number of cadets found themselves at their first encampment serving as flight sergeants and even flight commanders. They were pretty much hand-picked, from the Wing drill team and/or vouched for by experienced CP people and senior cadet officers.

Fast forward to 1973, and I recall an older (college student) cadet who would have liked such an opportunity. However, it was made clear that no such deal was in the offing. He had to go through as a "basic cadet" (as they were known) and tough it out. It was both character building and productive - he is still active in CAP and posts here occasionally.

[Eclipse]

I was asking for a cadet. I was reading an awards package that stated his first (and only) encampment was acting like a senior member essentially.

More detail is needed as to "acting like a senior member".  Also, I've seen plenty of cadets who mischaracterize their role in a given situation,
sometimes on purpose, sometimes based on their perception.

Now, there is one fairly unusual possibility.  This cadet could be AFJROTC and have attended a Summer Leadership school of one sort or the other,
which could confer encampment credit w/o actually attending an encampment. In that case it would be reflected as such in eservices.

I know at the time he was a SNCO, but I've seen quite a few SNCOs that had to go through basic encampment.

Yes, sadly there are chiefs in the student ranks every year.

Another point to this, maybe in CAWG or TXWG things are different, but the average cadet from "Average Composite Squadron" (GO BIG BEIGE!!)
simply isn't prepared to serve at staff of an activity of the scale of even smaller encampments if they haven't participated in at least one, preferably more so.

It's one thing to "lead" 3 other cadets in a squadron with two flights of 5, and a whole 'nother ball of wax to be surrounded by
blue or green with 8-10 flights of 10-15+ cadets and moving parts all around you.

[DakRadz]

I was a student attendee as a C/Chief, at 17 years old, having attended a Navy cadet academy and participating in AFJROTC at that point as well. I did well at the squadron level, as I had already been XO and Deputy at two other cadet programs where I and my cadet commander were running the show. I breezed through promotions with my one a month, and had enough delays to actually work my way up the ranks of CAP.


Going through encampment  as a student was an experience I wouldn't change for the world. It was helpful, educational, and I met friends and acquaintances I still know today (five, no! six years later)

1st Lt Raduenz

[PHall]

I've seen a number of 16 and 17 year old C/CMSgt's attending Encampment for the first time.
And while some of them turned out to be a real asset to the flight. Most of them were just there to get their "complete encampment" box checked so they could get their Mitchell Award.

[ZigZag911]

At times I have seen upper level cadet non-coms  used in a staff role while attending their first Basic Encampment; in fact, this was my own experience as a C?MSgt back in the early 70s.

It happens because of a lack of staff applicants from among prior attendees. When the issue arose years later when I was helping run things from the senior side, the general feeling was that it was better to utilize older/higher ranking cadets to help keep span of control manageable.

It's not an ideal practice, and I would suggest that in the normal course of events (i.e., the wing can muster sufficient cadet staff from prior attendees), ought not be followed. However, sometimes we have to "adapt, improvise, overcome"!

[Eclipse]

...this was my own experience as a C?MSgt back in the early 70s.

The difference being that today there is a structured curriculum to meet, not to mention evaluations, a written test, and other mandates.

When I first got involved with encampments in the early '00s, it was basically "what ever you got, is what you do", so there was a very
high level of flexibility in curriculum and expectations, but these days, there are 42+ required contact hours for a student cadet to properly complete
an encampment.

[ZigZag911]

There was a structured curriculum in the '70s, written aerospace and leadership tests through Phase 1 & 2; granted, the program has evolved in 40 plus years, but don't get the idea that cadet rank was handed out like Halloween candy back in the day!

[GaryVC]

don't get the idea that cadet rank was handed out like Halloween candy back in the day!

In the 1960s all the tests were closed book and taken under supervision in the squadron.

[Eclipse]

There was a structured curriculum in the '70s, written aerospace and leadership tests through Phase 1 & 2; granted, the program has evolved in 40 plus years, but don't get the idea that cadet rank was handed out like Halloween candy back in the day!

A structured encampment curriculum.

[SarDragon]

don't get the idea that cadet rank was handed out like Halloween candy back in the day!

In the 1960s all the tests were closed book and taken under supervision in the squadron.

When I started in the cadet program, tests were graded at NHQ, so there was a waiting period before you knew your test result. I don't recall when this changed, but I still have a couple of test result sheets in my olde cadet record. The most recent is May '65.

Now back to encampments. 

[ZigZag911]

There was a structured curriculum in the '70s, written aerospace and leadership tests through Phase 1 & 2; granted, the program has evolved in 40 plus years, but don't get the idea that cadet rank was handed out like Halloween candy back in the day!

A structured encampment curriculum.

Again, this was true in the 70s as well; as far as I know, there has always been an encampmant curriculum mandated by USAF.

[Eclipse]

Again, this was true in the 70s as well; as far as I know, there has always been an encampmant curriculum mandated by USAF.

I've been involved at the high level since 2001, so I can only speak to the state of the program in the last 17 years.

There's "structured" and there's "Structured".  When I first became involved, the "program", while purporting
40 minimum hours, was only two pages of very general class frameworks and expectations. As CAP-USAF was
heavily involved (more so in the early 00's and decreasing as manpower and funding dried up) in presenting classes,
conducting tours and assisting with various activities, and there generally a number of RAPS involved as well, some
staying on as staff and being present for the entire encampment, within that paradigm, and since
the State Director was the final authority as to encampment compliance and credit, if the USAF said it was "OK",
it was "OK". 

The above is a a far cry from what CAP has today (as flawed as it is), with 5 written tests, formal inbound and outbound evaluations, a
final written test, flight commander summations, individual experience interviews, mandated sleep periods,
mandated personal time, required number of Training Officers, not to mention parent orientations.

All of the above in addition to the various D&C time, venue-specific activities, PT, team sports, mandated AE, etc., etc.
(most of which have specified curriculum and presentations).  At one point there was ever rhetoric regarding
cadets failing to successfully complete the academics and not receiving credit (which lasted 1 year and apparently was almost
universally ignored).

Interestingly, while at the same time NHQ has increased the expectations and requirements, they have decreased the oversight -
CAP-USAF no longer vets curriculum or approves encampment credit,  CAP-USAF is still involved, as they are able, but is no longer required to be.
Curriculum compliance and encampment credit are at the sole discretion of the Encampment CC and Wing CC.

[Ned]

Interestingly, while at the same time NHQ has increased the expectations and requirements, they have decreased the oversight -
CAP-USAF no longer vets curriculum or approves encampment credit,  CAP-USAF is still involved, as they are able, but is no longer required to be.
Curriculum compliance and encampment credit are at the sole discretion of the Encampment CC and Wing CC.

I guess it kinda depends how you look at it.  The new encampment curricula was staffed extensively with our USAF colleagues since they are key stakeholders in the Mitchell Award which provides USAF benefits for cadets who choose to serve in the Armed Forces.  From my perspective, CAP-USAF extensively vetted the curriculum.

I certainly agree that "hands-on" involvement by AF officers at the encampment level have been reduced.  Heck, I'm sure we both remember the days when Reservists had to individually inspect CAP vehicles used at encampment and sign the inspection forms.  And had to personally walk the obstacle course.   

Based on my discussions with everyone involved (including multiple CAP-USAF commanders, AFNORTH commanders, and even a personal conversation with the Vice Chief of Staff), the AF would love to have officers engaging at every encampment.  As you point out, they simply do not have the resources to do so.

Which is one of the key reasons the encampment curriculum was upgraded - to help ensure a quality experience in ways significant to our AF stakeholders without the mandatory presence of AF personnel at the actual encampment.

And yes, encampment credit is certainly at the discretion of the CAP commanders involved, as long as their curricula meets the AF-approved standards.

Thank you for your work with our cadets.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

[Eclipse]

Any idea when or if the current version will ever be fixed?

They are just .PDFs.