CAPP 60-20 Drill and Cermonies Pamphlet Released August 2016

[Eclipse]

https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPP6020_5_AUG_16_07A0C6200BA4C.pdf

[Brad]

3.6.18. Flags flown on stationery flagstaffs are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special occasions.

YES THEY FIXED IT! Ugh, it has driven me nuts for years when Cadets try to...."educate their subordinates with command presence"....about why said Cadet walked past a flag pole and didn't salute it. -_-

[kwe1009]

Please keep in mind that some of the pictures may not be accurate.  It is stated at the beginning of the document.  Please go by the wording instead of the pictures.

[THRAWN]

Please keep in mind that some of the pictures may not be accurate.  It is stated at the beginning of the document.  Please go by the wording instead of the pictures.

This is not even a little tiny bit surprising in a CAP document.

[sardak]

    3.6.18. Flags flown on stationery flagstaffs are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special occasions.

YES THEY FIXED IT!

Except for the spelling - it should be stationary, which they spelled correctly in the rest of the document.

Mike

[Spam]

Before this snow balls too far:

if members really (REALLY) cared about pictures, word smithing, spelling, and actual content, they would go onto the CP Proving Grounds regularly, and make constructive comments to improve the structure and content of draft material, rather than just take shots at it after its publication.

Get involved, rather than take shots after the fact.

See:  https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/library/proving-grounds/


V/R
Spam

[NIN]

Before this snow balls too far:

if members really (REALLY) cared about pictures, word smithing, spelling, and actual content, they would go onto the CP Proving Grounds regularly, and make constructive comments to improve the structure and content of draft material, rather than just take shots at it after its publication.

Get involved, rather than take shots after the fact.

A bunch of people did.

[Spam]

Before this snow balls too far:

if members really (REALLY) cared about pictures, word smithing, spelling, and actual content, they would go onto the CP Proving Grounds regularly, and make constructive comments to improve the structure and content of draft material, rather than just take shots at it after its publication.

Get involved, rather than take shots after the fact.

A bunch of people did.

Right, I know (thanks, if you did, Sir).
Personally, I'm ambivalent about the issue.
I was just observing the usual trend getting started.

V/R
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

YES THEY FIXED IT! Ugh, it has driven me nuts for years when Cadets try to...."educate their subordinates with command presence"....about why said Cadet walked past a flag pole and didn't salute it. -_-

I could understand and deal with a cadet that tries to argue that flags in a flagpole shall be saluted, but what irked me most was a previous squadron commander I had 10 or 15 years ago that saluted every flag pole because of that phrase. Not only did he salute it but he stopped, came to full attention, and saluted. I tried to show him the way. Do what the military do. Salute when it goes up at Reveille, and Retreat. "No dice," he countered, "we are not military we do it this way since this is what the regs say!" I cringed, and did what he did with him. Away from him, I only did it if at Retreat or Reveille, or whenever the military did... Mind you, we were working regularly with other squadrons as well. Out of lets say about 60 other seniors and cadets, he was the only one saying so...

[Spam]

Being alone and unafraid does not mean that one is incorrect. I often find myself in that postion (e.g. trans threads). In this case, your lone Commander had the right of it, in my opinion.


I still salute every flag "displayed" underway as I pass, initiating six paces from. You can do as you wish, of course, but for my part, I observe "When you are passing... colors that are being... displayed... salute when the colors are six paces from you" (et cetera) IAW Refs. below.


V/R
Spam


Ref A: FM 7-21.13, 4-23.     "When you are passing or being passed by colors that are being presented, paraded, or displayed, salute when the colors are six paces from you. Hold the salute until the colors are six paces beyond you".

Ref B: 10th General Order:  "10. To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased".

[kwe1009]

Being alone and unafraid does not mean that one is incorrect. I often find myself in that postion (e.g. trans threads). In this case, your lone Commander had the right of it, in my opinion.


I still salute every flag "displayed" underway as I pass, initiating six paces from. You can do as you wish, of course, but for my part, I observe "When you are passing... colors that are being... displayed... salute when the colors are six paces from you" (et cetera) IAW Refs. below.


V/R
Spam


Ref A: FM 7-21.13, 4-23.     "When you are passing or being passed by colors that are being presented, paraded, or displayed, salute when the colors are six paces from you. Hold the salute until the colors are six paces beyond you".

Ref B: 10th General Order:  "10. To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased".

You are quoting an Army directive.  In the absence of CAP guidance we should be following USAF protocol which would be not to salute stationary flags except as noted in AFMAN 36-2203 7.36: "Flags flown from stationary flagstaffs on bases are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special occasions. Small flags and flags on half-staff are not saluted. Cased and folded flags are not saluted."

It is never, in my opinion, wrong to show honor and respect to the Flag.  The regulations state what respect is required.  I don't see anything wrong with going above and beyond.  We should just be careful that we are not teaching this as "required" actions.

[Luis R. Ramos]

That is the yardstick.

While we are supposed to show respect, we are supposed to follow what applies to us. Either you correct a cadet that argues that "all" cadets are expected to salute, or you have "all" cadets adopt the same.

Spam-

Two things. You said "as I pass by." This guy would stop, then salute.

And you are quoting the Orders of the Day as they apply to members of the Guard. Would you obey those if you are NOT on Guard Duty?

[Spam]

Being alone and unafraid does not mean that one is incorrect. I often find myself in that postion (e.g. trans threads). In this case, your lone Commander had the right of it, in my opinion.


I still salute every flag "displayed" underway as I pass, initiating six paces from. You can do as you wish, of course, but for my part, I observe "When you are passing... colors that are being... displayed... salute when the colors are six paces from you" (et cetera) IAW Refs. below.


V/R
Spam


Ref A: FM 7-21.13, 4-23.     "When you are passing or being passed by colors that are being presented, paraded, or displayed, salute when the colors are six paces from you. Hold the salute until the colors are six paces beyond you".

Ref B: 10th General Order:  "10. To salute all officers and all colors and standards not cased".

You are quoting an Army directive.  In the absence of CAP guidance we should be following USAF protocol which would be not to salute stationary flags except as noted in AFMAN 36-2203 7.36: "Flags flown from stationary flagstaffs on bases are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special occasions. Small flags and flags on half-staff are not saluted. Cased and folded flags are not saluted."

It is never, in my opinion, wrong to show honor and respect to the Flag.  The regulations state what respect is required.  I don't see anything wrong with going above and beyond.  We should just be careful that we are not teaching this as "required" actions.

Dear Readers, please note that I was careful to note to Luis that "you can do as you wish". I never noted that I taught this as USAF or CAP practice, when on post/base/aboard the station.

V/R
Spam

[Spam]

That is the yardstick.

While we are supposed to show respect, we are supposed to follow what applies to us. Either you correct a cadet that argues that "all" cadets are expected to salute, or you have "all" cadets adopt the same.

Spam-

Two things. You said "as I pass by." This guy would stop, then salute.

And you are quoting the Orders of the Day as they apply to members of the Guard. Would you obey those if you are NOT on Guard Duty?

Well, don't think I'm the "Taliban" thought police of drill or anything, but yeah, I did so many times when leaving my office on base. Its a personal thing, and I never have pressed any of my subordinates to comply with my feelings. Since Congress changed the Flag Code in 2014 or so, some things have changed, but not this, I think. I completely see where your former CO was coming from, that's all (but, see below on what I missed).


Where my position came from: the CAP cadet Leadership manual (Vol. 1) back in the 70s/80s did contain that six paces before the pole language, I am positive, and it stuck with me, as it might have with him. As a former cadet, I found myself echoing that, decades later as I walked out of my hangar after work day after day, past that flag.  I was familiar with the Army position, and hadn't bothered to check on the current USAF position (thanks, kwe1009)!


There's a natural human tendency that I've observed to feel that we add to that which is written, possibly because it "just... doesn't... seem... good... enough!".  Its in evidence in many major religions (Catholicism adds Sacred Tradition as equal to the words of Jesus, different flavors of Protestants do the same, Judaism adds the Mishnah (commentaries) to the Torah, Islam adds the Tasfir (commentaries) to the Quran, and so forth.  In our secular CAP-faith, we're all suffused with the desire to quibble over the regs and add to them, misquote them, amplify them, Supplement them, OI them, personally interpret them, and so forth until we're all personally happy with where we are, whether that's compliant or not.


So, I'm sorry, Luis. What I don't think I caught earlier, Luis, is that your former CO ordered you as well to comply with his vision and interpretation. If there's not a clear CAP or USAF guidance on it - all excellent points from kwe1009, by the way (thanks!) - he's was as guilty of any of us at writing extra books onto the "bible". If he indeed was making everyone ELSE comply with his unsanctioned vision, that's incorrect, and I withdraw my earlier assertion!


Speaking only for me,
Spam

[Luis R. Ramos]

I guess it was because of the sometimes unclear nature of CAP regulations, manuals, and pamphlets.

Neither of us, him or me were in the military. I felt I was more versed in military traditions, customs, and courtesies. But he read the CAP regulations, pamphlets, and manuals and interpreted his way. And we ended doing that, because he was the squadron commander.

Spam, I do appreciate the suggestions, and words of wisdom that sometimes I see on this board.

Take care.

[PHall]

I guess it was because of the sometimes unclear nature of CAP regulations, manuals, and pamphlets.

Neither of us, him or me were in the military. I felt I was more versed in military traditions, customs, and courtesies. But he read the CAP regulations, pamphlets, and manuals and interpreted his way. And we ended doing that, because he was the squadron commander.

Spam, I do appreciate the suggestions, and words of wisdom that sometimes I see on this board.

Take care.

CAP Manuals, Regulations and Pamphlets are no more unclear then "real" military Manuals, Regulations, Pamphlets and Instructions.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I have read many, many military manual and technical manuals in addition to CAP manuals and regulations. You would be surprised at the amount I have read being a civilian.

So maybe you have read more than I have, but I always find the military ones much, much clear than the CAP ones...

[kwe1009]

I guess it was because of the sometimes unclear nature of CAP regulations, manuals, and pamphlets.

Neither of us, him or me were in the military. I felt I was more versed in military traditions, customs, and courtesies. But he read the CAP regulations, pamphlets, and manuals and interpreted his way. And we ended doing that, because he was the squadron commander.

Spam, I do appreciate the suggestions, and words of wisdom that sometimes I see on this board.

Take care.

CAP Manuals, Regulations and Pamphlets are no more unclear then "real" military Manuals, Regulations, Pamphlets and Instructions.

The Air Force is definitely guilty of producing unclear and even contradicting guidance.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I apologize, I rephrase.

The military manuals and pamphlets I have familiarized myself are US Army. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I am not familiar with the US Air Force manuals and other pubs. I am n ot familiar with USN manuals or other pubs either... I am not trying to initiate a contest among which are better when I have not read USAF, USN, CG, or USMC manuals, and other pubs but I still maintain that US Army pamphlets, manuals, and other pubs are much clearer and easier to understand than CAP regs, manuals, and pubs.

[kwe1009]

I apologize, I rephrase.

The military manuals and pamphlets I have familiarized myself are US Army. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I am not familiar with the US Air Force manuals and other pubs. I am n ot familiar with USN manuals or other pubs either... I am not trying to initiate a contest among which are better when I have not read USAF, USN, CG, or USMC manuals, and other pubs but I still maintain that US Army pamphlets, manuals, and other pubs are much clearer and easier to understand than CAP regs, manuals, and pubs.

An ongoing issue with CAP is former members of the Army, Marines, Coast Guard, and Navy trying to impose their branch's traditions, manuals, drill, etc at the local squadrons.  It can range from harmless to causing a color guard to lose at cadet competition because they were not taught USAF/CAP drill.

The only regulations that matter in the CAP world are CAP and USAF regs and those from higher up the food chain.  No disrespect intended to other branches but CAP is the USAF auxiliary, not the Army or Navy auxiliary.  A great example of this in the military is the Honor Guards at DC.  While each branch has their own take on drill, when they do joint activities everyone goes by the Army way.  It may not always be the "best" way in the eyes of the other services but that is how it is done to avoid issues and arguments.