Other items that we could use?

Started by Hummingbird, April 14, 2016, 05:44:00 PM

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Hummingbird

I noticed on the 24 hour/72 hour pack lists some items could possibly be added, such as a commando saw. It's extremely small, and works fairly well for its size.

http://www.bestglide.com/product_images/TS1028_lg.jpg

What other items can we think of?
C/MSgtHummingbird CAP
Tactical Chef Boyardee guy
NER-NY-390

RogueLeader

I've had one of those, and it worked for about 5 minutes before it was broke.  Never bought another.  I have bought a small folding saw that has worked well for me.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

Luis R. Ramos

Disagree. Why would all team members need a saw?

However I think having one is still valuable. So it could be considered a team equipment. Only one is needed.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

lordmonar

It's personal gear.   Optional personal gear.  No one is suggesting it be mandatory for all members. 


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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Luis R. Ramos

I thought it was being suggested. Nevertheless, I think it would be important to have at least one per team.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Theodore

I think that at least one team member should carry a flare. Flares are useful for a lot of things.

THRAWN

Quote from: Theodore on April 15, 2016, 11:46:39 AM
I think that at least one team member should carry a flare. Flares are useful for a lot of things.

In over 20 years of ground teaming, I never had use for a flare.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Theodore


Eclipse

Quote from: Theodore on April 15, 2016, 01:53:36 PM
What about rope training?

That is considered a HAA, and it's not something CAP does during actual missions.

You can go to HMRS if you want to experience that.

"That Others May Zoom"

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Theodore on April 15, 2016, 01:53:36 PM
What about rope training?

Do you mean knot tying or high-angle rescue?

I think you mean high-angle but it could be the other.

Hummingbird

Quote from: RogueLeader on April 14, 2016, 06:37:39 PM
I've had one of those, and it worked for about 5 minutes before it was broke.  Never bought another.  I have bought a small folding saw that has worked well for me.

I've used mine on a couple of occasions, and it still seems fine
C/MSgtHummingbird CAP
Tactical Chef Boyardee guy
NER-NY-390

Live2Learn

Quote from: Hummingbird on April 14, 2016, 05:44:00 PM
I noticed on the 24 hour/72 hour pack lists some items could possibly be added, such as a commando saw. It's extremely small, and works fairly well for its size.

http://www.bestglide.com/product_images/TS1028_lg.jpg

What other items can we think of?

Our Sqdrn Safety Officer is a survival instructor with a lot of experience teaching military, SAR, DHS, and other pros.  He very strongly recommends against including a flex/cable saw like these in our survival or 'go' pack.  Unless we have a very good pair of gloves, pay very close attention at all times, and have both hands functioning at the start of the exercise,  flex and cable saws like the one in the quote  may actually be dangerous in a survival situation.  Remember, even in the best of conditions, survival demands a lot of us at a time when our energy level and nutrition may be low.  We may also be cold (hands won't work so well), have injuries (many aircraft and auto crashes result in flail injury to hands and limbs), and be fatigued.  Even in a 'camp' situation the flex/cable saws are still dangerous because of the very real risk of cutting hands and fingers should our grip on the rings or pegs slip.  I suggest considering a fixed, locking blade saw or equivalent.  The Coleman Folding Camp Saw is a much better option.  See:  http://www.campingcomfortably.com/coleman-folding-camp-saw.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=85785475944&gclid=CM_s_pXHkcwCFciFfgodVmQDPg  It weighs next just a bit more than the "pocket" hand saws, but it's a lot safer to use and cuts wood like a hot knife through butter.  Blades are easily replaceable. 

Live2Learn

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 14, 2016, 10:22:27 PM
Disagree. Why would all team members need a saw?

However I think having one is still valuable. So it could be considered a team equipment. Only one is needed.

There's a saying that counts heavily in any survival situation:  "Two is one and one is none".  A bit of redundancy is a very good idea in equipment the team brings to any situation.  While I can't carry two saws, I do carry one and hope someone else has the backup in case mine is lost, broke, or I don't show up.  Do you just carry one flash light or one set of backup batteries???

Eclipse

Self-reliance is fine, and the team equipment comment above is salient, but the odds of finding yourself in
a "survival" situation that would in any way be benefited by a cable saw, in a CAP uniform, are statistically zero.

An op would have to go sideways at a level literally never seen in a CAP mission for this to be necessary,
and as a general tool for camping, these are basically useless.

If you shake the average CAP GTM upside-down, you are likely to find 17 knives, 2 bow saws, a broadsword, and a plasma cutter.
All more useful then a cable saw.

"That Others May Zoom"

LSThiker

Out of curiosity, what situation do you think you need a saw for CAP work?

I have never felt the need for a saw in either CAP ES work or backpacking.

If it is for emergency/survival shelters, there are either other methods to use that do not require a saw.  In addition, I have never been a perfectly groomed forest in which all branches and sticks have been picked up from the forest floor.

If for making firewood, cutting live trees is a poor choice for firewood.  Usually the best firewood is already on the forest floor. 

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2016, 09:42:05 PM

If you shake the average CAP GTM upside-down, you are likely to find 17 knives, 2 bow saws, a broadsword, and a plasma cutter.
All more useful then a cable saw.

Note to self: Add plasma cutter to GTM kit.

More serious: Spare pens and notepads. If you packed too much paper, congrats, you have fire starter. If you drop your pen into the wilderness, you have an extra!

Not that I've ever lost such things.


stillamarine

Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2016, 09:42:05 PM

If you shake the average CAP GTM upside-down, you are likely to find 17 knives, 2 bow saws, a broadsword, and a plasma cutter.
All more useful then a cable saw.

Similarly, I was talking to a friend the other day. At work I have 2 guns, 94 rounds of ammunition, and 3 knives. No wonder my back hurts.
Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com

Spam

But still no plasma cutter. Ouch. What a capability gap.

I feel like a gaping hole has suddenly yawned open in front of us which we never knew was there. Northern Tool, here I come!


V/R
Spam


Luis R. Ramos

#18
Well, then, why don't we cut the list of knives, bows, saws, and plasma cutters and take, instead, two phasers like those issued by Starfleet?

Since we can set different power settings, we can have:

Low, stun for when we need a saw.
A little higher, for when we need to dig a hole for... a potty.
Full power for when we need a fire... Would make a huge bonfire in seconds!   ;D


Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Live2Learn

#19
Quote from: Eclipse on April 15, 2016, 09:42:05 PM
Self-reliance is fine, and the team equipment comment above is salient, but the odds of finding yourself in
a "survival" situation that would in any way be benefited by a cable saw, in a CAP uniform, are statistically zero.


Actually, it's quite a bit higher than "zero".  For an example, see the Probable Cause statement at this URL:  http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20001207X03205&key=1&queryId=b9821e1a-df3a-4d83-8d70-4fa341b9c291&pgno=1&pgsize=100  Note that IFR conditions persisted for days after a CAP aircraft crash landed in the early spring of 1995 near Bumping Lake, WA (a very rugged part of Washington State).  I have heard from some pilots who participated in the search that it was a text book crash landing.  The pilot, a CAP survival instructor, suffered only very minor injuries.  Unfortunately he was not dressed for the potential crash landing (in 10 feet of snow), and forgot his survival kit (it was locked in his car at the departure airport).  Several current members of WAWG participated in this very difficult search, and very stressful search.  It is very, very easy to imagine another CAP aircraft crash made under similar environmental conditions conditions where CAP and even USAF resources are unable to reach the stranded crew.  IMHO, a survival vest or personal survival kit for each aircrew member is a non-optional (required!) item, as is a properly equipped survival kit for each aircraft.  Two documents are attached, The first is the NTSB Factual statement (a good read).  The second is an article that compares two similar crashes which were both survivable.  In one the pilot survived until rescue, in the other the pilot (the CAP pilot) succumbed to hypothermia and exposure.  Also a good read.

Build your survival kit.  Remember that (in an aircraft) you may not have the luxury of your 'go pack' because a high proportion of off airport emergency landings result in a post crash fire.  Wear a survival vest even for 'transport' missions.  Dress so you can survive a couple of nights in the most adverse conditions you'll fly over.  Carry a PLB, since (like it or not) sometimes the aircraft ELT doesn't work.  FWIW, I carry a small saw (the Coleman locking saw) plus two survival knives when I fly.  I also carry a couple bottles of water and some energy bars, plus a shelter.  In the spring, fall, and winter I carry snow shoes, a survival pack, and a -30 dF sleeping bag (in my own plane).  The CAP plane has a survival kit, plus a couple of sleeping bags.  Whatever you do, please don't assume you have a "near zero" chance of going down in a CAP airplane.  Or that you'll never need a survival kit on a CAP sortie.  The NTSB stats just don't support that view.

Eclipse

1 - We're not talking about aircrew survival kits, this was in relation to them being in a GTM kit.

2 - If you want to take it to include CAP aircrew, and you factor in sorties vs. survivable crashes
with aircrew living in austere conditions for an extended period, it's literally statistically zero.

3 - The anecdote cited is a good example of a sortie that would probably never be released.
The stupid chances and bad decisions of non-CAP pilots are something that will serve to
amaze and amuse people for millennia, but not really relevent here, except that they give us
things to do.

If a nice $20 shopping mall "survival" knife with Bear's logo on it makes you feel safer, have at it.



"That Others May Zoom"

Holding Pattern

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 16, 2016, 02:56:41 AM
Well, then, why don't we cut the list of knives, bows, saws, and plasma cutters and take, instead, two phasers like those issued by Starfleet?

Since we can set different power settings, we can have:

Low, stun for when we need a saw.
A little higher, for when we need to dig a hole for... a potty.
Full power for when we need a fire... Would make a huge bonfire in seconds!   ;D

The ORM on those things became ridiculous after some enterprising redshirt figured out how to set them to overload.

Add that to "Things Starfleet Auxiliary is no longer allowed to take on away missions..."

Live2Learn

Eclipse:  I respect your opinion (most times) and certain respect your experience.  However, in this instance I believe the logic behind your assertion of zero risk is seriously flawed.  CAP resources operate in all states, in all seasons, and on or over all types of terrain.  CAP ground teams go to the field in conditions that could easily worsen to the point that even a good FWD would have problems getting out.  Been there, done that.  In most western States at least some portions can experience freezing conditions and snow followed by warm temperatures at least nine (and often twelve months) of the year.  As far as air crew goes, engines are far less than perfect.  I know you have a high opinion of CAP maintenance.  I'm very glad you have had good experienced with same.  Based on my own experience with CAP aircraft I do not share your opinion.  A brief look at NTSB accident reports reveals that about once every year or two a CAP plane experiences an inflight maintenance issue that brings it to an unplanned, unintended off airport landing.  Fortunately CAP pilots, for the most part, can manage a bad situation.  If the same event occurs over the mountains, and we DO fly over mountains - often in the winter, then, like the ground teams who might be caught in a blizzard, prior preparation and good survival gear for aircrews is necessary for a good outcome.  I won't continue to debate this, so you may have the last word if you desire.  I just ask that you allow those who wish to prepare to do so.

Theodore

I always carry a Wildland style Firefighter helmet. Does the job for me.


etodd

Quote from: Hummingbird on April 14, 2016, 05:44:00 PM

What other items can we think of?

Whether I'm flying or on the ground, this gets packed first.

"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Holding Pattern

Quote from: etodd on April 22, 2016, 02:03:40 AM
Quote from: Hummingbird on April 14, 2016, 05:44:00 PM

What other items can we think of?

Whether I'm flying or on the ground, this gets packed first.



I sure hope that we don't need those... then again, we hope we never need the incident within an incident plan.

Luis R. Ramos

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 22, 2016, 01:02:06 PM
And what is that?

A GPS or a PLB?

It's a commercial PLB. Doesn't require homing, transmits GPS coordinates to a satellite and gets processed by a center you pay for with your subscription. Has some other features like tracking, OK messages, etc depending on what device you have and what package you choose.

I want one for motorcycle trips but I haven't shelled out yet.

www.findmespot.com

isuhawkeye

there have been several posts on this board over the years that dove into the spot.  Some states even issued them to aircrew and ground teams for a while.  you can set them up to transmit a breadcrumb point that can be viewed over the internet.  a branch director can keep tabs on all of their assets  while in the field. 

JeffDG

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 22, 2016, 01:22:39 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 22, 2016, 01:02:06 PM
And what is that?

A GPS or a PLB?

It's a commercial PLB. Doesn't require homing, transmits GPS coordinates to a satellite and gets processed by a center you pay for with your subscription. Has some other features like tracking, OK messages, etc depending on what device you have and what package you choose.

I want one for motorcycle trips but I haven't shelled out yet.

www.findmespot.com
Yep, we have a bunch of those for our aircraft and tie them into a Google Earth view that shows where our aircraft are.  Since it's satellite based, we can track our aircraft (sends a ping every 10 min) in near real-time.

On our last OpsEval, the CAP-USAF folks told one of our planes to stop responding to the radio and land at an airport, and we "found" the plane before he ever landed with that (I looked at the map projected on the wall and said, "Why the hell is that plane up there?")

Al Sayre

We have them in MSWG on all of our aircraft as well.  As an IC I love it that I can just look at my screen and know where all of my aircraft are at any given time +/- 10 min.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

sardak

#32
Flight service will now track your SPOT, and similar devices, when you file a VFR flight plan. Here is how it's described by SPOT:

Using a SPOT GEN3® or SPOT Trace®, you can now register your flight plan details (VFRs) with Lockheed Martin's Flight Services and use your SPOT My Account to activate the GPS position (tracking) reports to LMFS. The LMFS system keeps track of the aircraft and if the aircraft stops moving or stops sending position reports, an alarm is triggered immediately at LMFS. The aircraft's most recent GPS coordinates are forwarded to Search and Rescue (SAR) authorities, narrowing the search radius, providing faster SAR response.  http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=112

Flight Service describes it as part of their Surveillance-Enhanced Search and Rescue (SE-SAR) program: https://www.1800wxbrief.com/Website/#!/surveillance-enhanced-search-and-rescue

QuoteAnd what is that?

A GPS or a PLB?

It's a commercial PLB.
It's a Satellite Emergency Notification Device (SEND), the industry accepted term for devices that send distress signals over any satellite service other than Cospas-Sarsat, and which don't connect to the telephone, so sat-phones aren't SENDs. PLBs by definition use the Cospas-Sarsat system. This came about after a company advertised a device as a PLB that didn't use any satellite service. It put out a low power signal on FRS channels.

A SPOT beacon is a one-way device that uses the Globalstar system. DeLorme (recently bought by Garmin) makes a two-way device, the InReach, which uses the Iridium system. http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreach-explorer.php  There are other SENDs, but these are two marketed to the "consumer" market.

Emergency signals from both devices go to the privately owned GEOS International Emergency Response Coordination Center (IERCC). http://www.geosalliance.com/iercc/iercc-history/

Mike

GroundHawg

Quote from: THRAWN on April 15, 2016, 01:22:37 PM
Quote from: Theodore on April 15, 2016, 11:46:39 AM
I think that at least one team member should carry a flare. Flares are useful for a lot of things.

In over 20 years of ground teaming, I never had use for a flare.

I have used them quite a bit. During a lost person search at night (actual not training) we fired a pen flare, the person saw it and told us the direction it was to them and the estimated distance. We were able to find her and get her to EMS really quickly.

A very similar use was when a GT got seriously lost during a night navigation and we were able to triangulate their location based on their flare and "walk" them back to base on the radio.

A pen flare is literally the size of an ink pen and weighs next to nothing. I will continue to pack mine just in case!