Is it time to rethink the 5 year record retention rule?

[SARDOC]

So how do you reconcile what you posted with the Personnel Officer pamphlet? CAPP 200 states:

Training and Performance Requirements

The Personnel Officer technician rating candidate should posses a basic knowledge of the following and be able to :

....
• Ensure new members appear in the membership database and receive their membership card in a timely fashion.
• Set up a personnel log, and file folders for members.
• Assign/appoint members to duty assignments electronically and on paper.
• Process routine promotions electronically and on paper in a timely fashion.....

For brevity I omit some requirements.

Here is where CAP requires units to set up personnel files. Please don't adopt the "pamphlets are not prescriptive." Don't adopt the "should" and "be able" debate either.

I think your interpretation of the quoted statement is misunderstood.  The pamphlet is a suggestion of the training for someone in the Personnel specialty track not a regulation on the unit.

The quoted segment says that thes are skills that someone in the personnel specialty track should possess.  Granted it would be very difficult to demonstrate said skills without actually practicing the skill.  There is no requirement to actually do it or even appoint a personnel officer.

You can just dismiss the "Should" argument because Civil Air Patrol regulations are very clear there is no "Should" argument.

1. Definitions. As used in publications, the following words/terms are defined as indicated:
a. "Shall", "will" or "must", when used in a directive publication indicates a mandatory
requirement.
b. "Should" indicates a non-mandatory or preferred method of accomplishment [nondirective].
c. "May" indicates an acceptable or suggested means of accomplishment [nondirective].

[MSG Mac]

It could just be me, but I don't think I've seen a circumstance where people are happy about finding their old records were destroyed. Couldn't we come up with a scenario where after 5 years, the records get digitized and handed off to the care of either IT or squadron historians, or preferably have a place in eServices to cold store the files?

My suggestion is: spend $1 and mail the records back to the individual. Enclose a stamped post card with the statement "received personnel records on this date" with a line for the signature.

[PHall]

It could just be me, but I don't think I've seen a circumstance where people are happy about finding their old records were destroyed. Couldn't we come up with a scenario where after 5 years, the records get digitized and handed off to the care of either IT or squadron historians, or preferably have a place in eServices to cold store the files?

My suggestion is: spend $1 and mail the records back to the individual. Enclose a stamped post card with the statement "received personnel records on this date" with a line for the signature.

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

[Майор Хаткевич]

It could just be me, but I don't think I've seen a circumstance where people are happy about finding their old records were destroyed. Couldn't we come up with a scenario where after 5 years, the records get digitized and handed off to the care of either IT or squadron historians, or preferably have a place in eServices to cold store the files?

My suggestion is: spend $1 and mail the records back to the individual. Enclose a stamped post card with the statement "received personnel records on this date" with a line for the signature.

$1? When was the last time you mailed something? Also, how would we know if they moved or not? What if mail gets stolen?

[Holding Pattern]

Theft of mail really isn't our problem.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

As some of you know, I recently sought advice on how to get my records from my former CC.

As I see it, and I know the regs do not necessarily agree, "The Corporation" has no right to things like copies of my military discharge papers (NGB 22).  That is privileged information.  I remember when I was going through outprocessing for my discharge, the Technical Sergeant in Personnel at my ANGB used those exact words...privileged information.

CAP regs required me to submit a copy when I joined.  As I see it, they no longer have any need/right to those.

[Holding Pattern]

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

As some of you know, I recently sought advice on how to get my records from my former CC.

As I see it, and I know the regs do not necessarily agree, "The Corporation" has no right to things like copies of my military discharge papers (NGB 22).  That is privileged information.  I remember when I was going through outprocessing for my discharge, the Technical Sergeant in Personnel at my ANGB used those exact words...privileged information.

CAP regs required me to submit a copy when I joined.  As I see it, they no longer have any need/right to those.

They may not have a need, but they do have the right. You gave that to them the moment you handed the copy in to CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Aren't the records property of the Corperation and not the member?

As some of you know, I recently sought advice on how to get my records from my former CC.

As I see it, and I know the regs do not necessarily agree, "The Corporation" has no right to things like copies of my military discharge papers (NGB 22).  That is privileged information.  I remember when I was going through outprocessing for my discharge, the Technical Sergeant in Personnel at my ANGB used those exact words...privileged information.

CAP regs required me to submit a copy when I joined.  As I see it, they no longer have any need/right to those.

They may not have a need, but they do have the right. You gave that to them the moment you handed the copy in to CAP.

What is their logical purpose in retaining such information on someone they will likely never see again?

[lordmonar]

CAP retains them for 5 years and then destroys them.   As for their "right" you don't have to provide the.....but then you don't get any of the benefits of providing them. 

[William K. Bolan]

I feel that it should up to the member themselves whether they want their records destroyed or not.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I feel that it should up to the member themselves whether they want their records destroyed or not.

Logical.  Which is why it will not happen.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

CAP retains them for 5 years and then destroys them.   As for their "right" you don't have to provide the.....but then you don't get any of the benefits of providing them.

Actually, I was told to provide a copy of my discharge papers.

[lordmonar]

I feel that it should up to the member themselves whether they want their records destroyed or not.

Logical.  Which is why it will not happen.

It is not logical.

If after five years....why should I hold on to useless records?
Who's gonna pay for the long term storage?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Pat, what I meant was that it is logical for the member to decide what should be done with his/her records when s/he leaves CAP.

As many of you know, this is an issue I am dealing with right now.

When I rejoined in '09, of course I was told to provide a copy of my NGB22 and I duly did so.

For those of you haven't seen one, it's the National Guard's equivalent of DD214 (even though Guard/Reserve personnel get DD214's when released from FAD) and there is a lot of personal, privileged (in the words of my ANG Personnel NCO) information on there that is not germane to CAP.  All CAP really needs is the on-paper official proof of "Good Boy/Girl Discharge," and maybe medals worn if the member chooses to wear them, which one cannot do on the corporate uniforms anyway, nor can State awards be worn on the USAF-type uniform (nor can they be worn if one's Guard unit is called to Federal status; virtually everyone I knew had two sets of ribbon racks because of that).

I fail to see the logic in why a CC who has openly expressed distaste for me (and to be fair, he's not on my Christmas card list either) needs/wants anything to do with me, when hopefully we shall not encounter one another in this world again.

[Storm Chaser]

No document can be required beyond what's prescribed in the regulations. That said, any PII on documents required by CAP, but not needed by CAP can be blacked out. I've done that with certain documents containing my social security number.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No document can be required beyond what's prescribed in the regulations. That said, any PII on documents required by CAP, but not needed by CAP can be blacked out. I've done that with certain documents containing my social security number.

I was told I had to supply it to prove I had a "good boy" discharge, which I do.

[Storm Chaser]

No document can be required beyond what's prescribed in the regulations. That said, any PII on documents required by CAP, but not needed by CAP can be blacked out. I've done that with certain documents containing my social security number.

I was told I had to supply it to prove I had a "good boy" discharge, which I do.

That would fall under CAPR 39-2, Para. 3-2.d:

d. Suitability. Subject to being waived by the Chief Operating Officer and/or National Commander, as noted below, any one of the following may be the basis for rejection of membership.

          (1) Conviction of a felony by any court of record whether federal, state or military. (Requires both Chief Operating Officer and National Commander concurrence to accept as member.)

                ...

          (3) Discharge from the armed services under other than honorable conditions.

All you need to do is show evidence of an honorable discharge. There's no requirement to turn in this paperwork. And even if you do turn it in, as it shows your military decorations, among other things, there's nothing preventing you from removing certain sensitive/personal information from the copy being handed to your CAP unit.