Permethrin Spray

[stitchmom]

Is permethrin spray applied before or after a uniform is pressed?  Does the heat from pressing ruin the protection?

[LSThiker]

Apply it as the last item. 

When you wash the uniform use gentle cycle and let air-dry.  It should last for about 4 washes or 6 weeks, which ever comes first.  Do not heavy press the uniforms.  If you need to dry the uniform, dry using gentle heat once.  The largest contributor for the degradation of permethrin is the agitation of the washing machine and drier.  While it "sticks" to the cloth fibers, agitation can remove the chemical from the fabric.  It is considered to be heat stable, but there may be some loss of effectiveness as a neurotoxin in high heat.  This has not been demonstrated conclusively although they have heated the chemical to 200ºC and it seemed to work.

For problem areas on the BDUs, such as pockets, just sew the corners down so that way the extra fabric does not bulge out. 

[lordmonar]

Okay..... What is permethrin ?

[capmaj]

It's a pesticide commonly impregnated into childrens clothing, such as the Buzz-Off line. But.............


"Permethrin is a possible carcinogen and a suspected endocrine disruptor. Endocrine disruptors interfere with normal hormone function and can contribute to breast and testicular cancer, birth defects, learning disorders, and other problems. Animal studies indicate that small amounts of permethrin may cause immunotoxicity, or corruption of the immune system. Exposure to sunlight may worsen this response, according to the research of Virginia Tech Professor Steven D. Holladay and colleagues. Although Holladay's research is based on higher doses than that found in the clothing, he points out the need for studies that examine immunotoxicity at comparable doses to the clothing. "Nobody really knows at this point the risk that the clothes pose," he explained."

Not sure I'd allow my cadets to use this stuff without a written permission note from Mom/Dad.

[Eaker Guy]

It's a pesticide commonly impregnated into childrens clothing, such as the Buzz-Off line. But.............


"Permethrin is a possible carcinogen and a suspected endocrine disruptor. Endocrine disruptors interfere with normal hormone function and can contribute to breast and testicular cancer, birth defects, learning disorders, and other problems. Animal studies indicate that small amounts of permethrin may cause immunotoxicity, or corruption of the immune system. Exposure to sunlight may worsen this response, according to the research of Virginia Tech Professor Steven D. Holladay and colleagues. Although Holladay's research is based on higher doses than that found in the clothing, he points out the need for studies that examine immunotoxicity at comparable doses to the clothing. "Nobody really knows at this point the risk that the clothes pose," he explained."

Not sure I'd allow my cadets to use this stuff without a written permission note from Mom/Dad.

I was wondering what that stuff was. Completely agree.

[LSThiker]

It's a pesticide commonly impregnated into childrens clothing, such as the Buzz-Off line. But.............


"Permethrin is a possible carcinogen and a suspected endocrine disruptor. Endocrine disruptors interfere with normal hormone function and can contribute to breast and testicular cancer, birth defects, learning disorders, and other problems. Animal studies indicate that small amounts of permethrin may cause immunotoxicity, or corruption of the immune system. Exposure to sunlight may worsen this response, according to the research of Virginia Tech Professor Steven D. Holladay and colleagues. Although Holladay's research is based on higher doses than that found in the clothing, he points out the need for studies that examine immunotoxicity at comparable doses to the clothing. "Nobody really knows at this point the risk that the clothes pose," he explained."

Not sure I'd allow my cadets to use this stuff without a written permission note from Mom/Dad.

Please refer appropriate sources and not "BeyondPesticides" sources, which are bias and misleading.

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OPP-2011-0039-0002

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregistration/REDs/factsheets/permethrin_fs.htm

[stitchmom]

Thank you for the replies. 
I'm only applying it to my child's uniform.  I often lean on the crunchy mama side of things usually but am OK with insect repellents. Tick borne illness scares me.   

[capmaj]

Then how about the EPA's on conclusion sheet?

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregistration/REDs/factsheets/permethrin-facts-2009.pdf


Note the info concludes that while usage risks are below allowed limits, emphasis is placed on the user A0 Following the application guidelines, and B) Limiting the wear of the treated item.

Please note that I didn't say the stuff was bad or that its use shouldn't be allowed. What I said was that I would like to know that Mom/Dad are aware that their child is wearing clothing that has been treated 'after-market' by the wearer.

[LSThiker]

Thank you for the replies. 
I'm only applying it to my child's uniform.  I often lean on the crunchy mama side of things usually but am OK with insect repellents. Tick borne illness scares me.   

Depends on where you live. Since you do not include your location, it may or may not be something to worry about.

Rocky Mountain spotted fever, which is caused by Rickettsia rickettsii, is more common in the Appalachian Mountains than other areas.  It is still found in other places in the US such as the Rocky Mountains, though.

Lyme Disease, caused by Borrelia burgdorferi, is prevalent on the Northeast Coast (Maryland to Maine) and Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota area.

Tick-borne encephalitis virus is not found in the US.

My area of research is Tick-Borne and Louse-Borne bacterial diseases.

[LSThiker]

Then how about the EPA's on conclusion sheet?

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregistration/REDs/factsheets/permethrin-facts-2009.pdf


Note the info concludes that while usage risks are below allowed limits, emphasis is placed on the user A0 Following the application guidelines, and B) Limiting the wear of the treated item.

Please note that I didn't say the stuff was bad or that its use shouldn't be allowed. What I said was that I would like to know that Mom/Dad are aware that their child is wearing clothing that has been treated 'after-market' by the wearer.

As with all chemicals, proper usage is important, obviously.  However, you did say the stuff was bad indirectly.  You deliberately chose a specific line from the BeyondPesticides website, a deliberately misleading and bias website, that address the "toxicity" of the chemical.  Thereby deliberately misleading a reader.  The list of adverse effects is misleading from that website.  Those adverse effects are from studies that use oral doses at a higher concentration in animal studies.  So unless you are drinking the stuff, spraying permethrin on a person's uniform demonstrates no adverse effects in otherwise healthy adults, children, and toddlers.  It would also be toxic if you are a fish, arachnid, or insect.

The Agency also assessed the significance of permethrin use, and conducted a risk/benefit balancing analysis. Given the significance of the use of permethrin and the mitigated nature of the risks of permethrin, the Agency believes, on balance, that the benefits of permethrin outweigh the risks.

As I get research money for basic research into potentially new drug targets for those diseases, I would be better off if permethrin would be banned for use as it would increase the significance of my work.  The largest objections to my work are "doxycycline is already an effect and safe treatment for tick-borne rickettsial diseases and lyme disease which shows no signs of resistance" and "we already have effective prevention methods with permethrin", so why do we need to continue researching new drug targets for  relatively minor rickettsial diseases.

[Holding Pattern]

As a random:

http://www.afpmb.org/sites/default/files/pubs/standardlists/msds/6840-01-278-1336_msds.pdf

Now you have the DoD MSDS.

[jdh]

While I was in the Army they stopped issuing it and forbade us from using it due to health risks from prolonged usage.

[THRAWN]

Zounds. Might as well just dip Junior in Agent Orange. I spent a lot of time on Fort Dix and spent very little time picking ticks off of me. I've used Maxi-Deet for camping, CAP, mowing the lawn, etc. It's pretty inexpensive and can be found in most of the places with a camping section (Walmart, Dick's, Sports Authority) Follow the directions on the bottle and read up on any chemical that you put on you or yours. I never sprayed it on bare skin, but it works wonders when sprayed on clothing. I would use Avon's Skin So Soft or Deep Woods OFF on skin...Good question...

[Bullpup95]

FWIW - The retail versions of permethrin such as Sawyer is safe after it has dried on clothing.  It is a inhalation hazard while applying but perfectly safe after it has dried.  Sawyer has their SDS prominently displayed on their website.  There are other brands but this one I can find at most sporting goods stores and of course WallyWorld does carry it.  I have been using it for SAR & LE for 23+ years in MS, now in VA with no issues as did many co-workers.  It is my second line of defense to ticks and chiggers, first is properly worn clothing. And I can tell you that Lyme disease is very prevalent down south as well!

[stitchmom]

I wasn't posting to start a debate about insecticides or not or the 100 other mommy debates.     

[THRAWN]

I wasn't posting to start a debate about insecticides or not or the 100 other mommy debates. 

Maybe not, but it's good that you did. Some people are just ignorant of the impact that spraying chemicals on themselves may have. The more it's discussed, the better we will all be able to operate safely.

[Eaker Guy]

I wasn't posting to start a debate about insecticides or not or the 100 other mommy debates. 

Maybe not, but it's good that you did. Some people are just ignorant of the impact that spraying chemicals on themselves may have. The more it's discussed, the better we will all be able to operate safely.

:clap:

[JeffDG]

I wasn't posting to start a debate about insecticides or not or the 100 other mommy debates. 

Maybe not, but it's good that you did. Some people are just ignorant of the impact that spraying chemicals on themselves may have. The more it's discussed, the better we will all be able to operate safely.

And some people are completely ignorant of the nature of chemicals altogether, and say the term like it's an automatic epithet.

For example, I spray a healthy dose of the chemical "hydrogen hydroxide" on my body every single day.  I have even been known to ingest significant quantities.

[SarDragon]

No, no, no. That's dihydrogen monoxide, or DHMO. Really ugly stuff in excess.

[THRAWN]

I wasn't posting to start a debate about insecticides or not or the 100 other mommy debates. 

Maybe not, but it's good that you did. Some people are just ignorant of the impact that spraying chemicals on themselves may have. The more it's discussed, the better we will all be able to operate safely.

And some people are completely ignorant of the nature of chemicals altogether, and say the term like it's an automatic epithet.

For example, I spray a healthy dose of the chemical "hydrogen hydroxide" on my body every single day.  I have even been known to ingest significant quantities.

True. Those people would not be me.

[THRAWN]

No, no, no. That's dihydrogen monoxide, or DHMO. Really ugly stuff in excess.

Only if it is from the Schyulkill River....

[SarDragon]

No, no, no. That's dihydrogen monoxide, or DHMO. Really ugly stuff in excess.

Only if it is from the Schyulkill River....

Got nothing on the Androscogscumgin River. The river with a head on it.

[abdsp51]

Never used the stuff even deployed.

[LSThiker]

Sorry for my sense but I am at a Tick-borne disease conference, ironically enough.

I wasn't posting to start a debate about insecticides or not or the 100 other mommy debates.     

It is CAPTalk, any post has the ability to be a debate, go into a tangent, or be a debate on a tangent.  :-)

No, no, no. That's dihydrogen monoxide, or DHMO. Really ugly stuff in excess.

Well, it was Aliso Viejo, California that had a paralegal put the banning of DHMO on a city council agenda in March 2004.

I wasn't posting to start a debate about insecticides or not or the 100 other mommy debates. 

Maybe not, but it's good that you did. Some people are just ignorant of the impact that spraying chemicals on themselves may have. The more it's discussed, the better we will all be able to operate safely.

And some people are completely ignorant of the nature of chemicals altogether, and say the term like it's an automatic epithet.

True. Those people would not be me.

However, that hoax demonstrates what is wrong with science education in this country.  People read things on the internet that sound official and scary but they fail to critically analyze the information.  As with the DHMO hoax.  People hear an official scary source and believe it must be true.  I run into this all the time with people: 
the contrail conspiracy
Banning of vaccines because Jenny McCarthy says so based on the fraudulent work of Andrew Wakefield despite the volumes of research that demonstrates the contrary. 
Quote mining (Richard Dawkins has a good video on this)
"Studies" that demonstrates XYZ but they fail to understand the study itself was flawed because poor technique, wrong dosage, wrong delivery, wrong usage.
Or some bias and misleading website like NaturalNews says so

Part of this fault lies in the process of science.  When I publish, if my article is rejected (not meaning accepted but with major revisions), then I try to publish again in a lower tier journal.  Sooner or later some journal with poor standards or peer review or none at all will accept the work and publish it.  People can latch on to these journals and claim "see it is published research". Of course even top tier journals will post flawed science because poor reviewer selection, based on the history of a particular researcher, etc.  The good thing is that over time science corrects itself based on more research and other scientists disputing claims (I.e. The retracted articles of South Korean researcher that claimed he could clone human stem cells). 

Being able to really critically evaluate scientific work is what separates a scientist and a person that studied science.  I do not know many times I have heard "well he has a BA in science so that makes him a scientist". Sorry it does not. 

While I was in the Army they stopped issuing it and forbade us from using it due to health risks from prolonged usage.

When was that?  Was that Army or a command decision.  For at least 30years, the use of permethrin has been in field manuals.  Also the Army has reintroduced permethrin treated Uniforms in 2013:

http://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/envirohealth/epm/Pages/PermethrinFactory-treatedArmyCombatUniforms(ACUPermethrin).aspx

Never used the stuff even deployed.

Neither did I.  The only time I wear it is when I am outside in conditions near mosquito or tick hatching season and you see these:



Mosquito swarms


Lone star tick larvae

[jdh]

While I was in the Army they stopped issuing it and forbade us from using it due to health risks from prolonged usage.

When was that?  Was that Army or a command decision.  For at least 30years, the use of permethrin has been in field manuals.  Also the Army has reintroduced permethrin treated Uniforms in 2013:

http://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/envirohealth/epm/Pages/PermethrinFactory-treatedArmyCombatUniforms(ACUPermethrin).aspx

In 04 in basic they gave it to us with initial issue, while in AIT in 05 it was taken and we were told to discontinue use of it and it was still forbidden in 2009 when I got medically retired. We were told to use high concentration DEET sprays instead.

[AlphaSigOU]

Mosquito swarms

The Marshall Islands Air Force! (Also applies to the swarms of day-VFR only flies.)

[PHall]

While I was in the Army they stopped issuing it and forbade us from using it due to health risks from prolonged usage.

When was that?  Was that Army or a command decision.  For at least 30years, the use of permethrin has been in field manuals.  Also the Army has reintroduced permethrin treated Uniforms in 2013:

http://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/envirohealth/epm/Pages/PermethrinFactory-treatedArmyCombatUniforms(ACUPermethrin).aspx

In 04 in basic they gave it to us with initial issue, while in AIT in 05 it was taken and we were told to discontinue use of it and it was still forbidden in 2009 when I got medically retired. We were told to use high concentration DEET sprays instead.

That's no joke. I developed a hyper-sensitivity to the stuff and can't even use stuff like Off bug repellent today.

[LSThiker]

While I was in the Army they stopped issuing it and forbade us from using it due to health risks from prolonged usage.

When was that?  Was that Army or a command decision.  For at least 30years, the use of permethrin has been in field manuals.  Also the Army has reintroduced permethrin treated Uniforms in 2013:

http://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/envirohealth/epm/Pages/PermethrinFactory-treatedArmyCombatUniforms(ACUPermethrin).aspx

In 04 in basic they gave it to us with initial issue, while in AIT in 05 it was taken and we were told to discontinue use of it and it was still forbidden in 2009 when I got medically retired. We were told to use high concentration DEET sprays instead.

So it was command decision. The Army Public Health Command and AMEDD were still recommending permethrin during those times for uniforms and DEET. But we were not recommending one over the other.

[lordmonar]

Well.....timely discussion.

If you've read the new SAFETY BEACON you will see that CAP advocates the use of Permethrin and DEET to repel ticks.

http://capmembers.com/media/cms/June_Safety_Beacon_2015__final__pdf_5FF54BD3456F5.pdf