CAP Rangers

[jimmydeanno]

The premise behind HMRS is right on.  Teach CAP members about leadership in the field, and some 'advanced' SAR techniques.  There is however, something greatly lacking in the 'end result' of the shcool. 

All of the 'Rangers' I have ever encountered have had a 'holier than thou' attitude.  Completely unacceptable.

For example, my current squadron has a HMRS graduate...excues me...expert ranger.  He wanted to help re-vamp the current ES program in the squadron. GREAT!  Let's come up with a plan.

"Let's start with High-Angle Rappeling, mountain rescue, and make it a Ranger Team."

Reality check...

Let's start with GES, and work out way to GTM 3.  None of the items he suggested we do pertained to any ratings that anyone could get.  No sense in having a 'ranger team' if they aren't qualified to do anything.

When I tried to set his goals for the program a little more realistically, he responded.."well that's what they do at HMRS, and it works for them!  I've been to HMRS 3 times yada...yada...yada..."

I have never had any 'good' interactions with graduates of HMRS, most of them need a relief valve on their neck.

A lot of the things that they teach don't have many practical applications in the way CAP performs SAR.  A few years back, I was perusing their web-site photo section, and noticed some of the pictures...

1) Overweight SM with beard wearing BDUs.

2) Cadets doing pushups face first in the water.

What exactly does doing pushups in the water do in terms of teaching you SAR?

Looking at the photos they have up there now...

1) C/Col w/ chicken...what exactly is he doing with that chicken...oh yeah, learning how to kill and eat it.  Obviously something you need to know to find someone...

Don't get me wrong though, It's great in concept, and I'm sure there are many success's of the program, I just haven't met any yet.

[mikeylikey]

^ me personally I love it when one of the Ranger types gets TWO (2) web belts and attaches them together to fit  around themselves.  AND they still Wear BDU's.  INSANE!  (I used to be a HUGE fatty, so don't bash on me for making fun of them)

[Stonewall]

I do believe that your cadets have an attitude (otherwise you wouldn't be here complaining).

Hey there stud, I have never had any of MY cadets go to Hawk Mountain.  So you are wrong, it is not my cadets, but rather the cadets I have come across outside of my own unit.  And even worse, the senior members (Read:  Adults) who are trying to fullfill some void in their life of elitism.  Again, NOT MY CADETS.  Understand?  Chances are they are your cadets or someones cadets like you.

I do think you need to lighten up and understand that cadets are teenagers and at their point in life they don't have much to be proud of aside from activities such as HM.

Wow, you give very little credit to the CAP Cadet Program if you think Hawk Mountain is the be all end all to "pride" and "elistism" for our youth.  Again, cadets under my supervision/command never once had elitist attitudes.  In fact, it was a young female cadet who first explained to me the "Hawk Mentaility" when I first went North from Florida.  I really think you have priority issues.

As teenagers, they are prone to wear all the crazy garb that comes with this membership in the HM Rangers and not to just quietly offer their newly gained expertise. It is up to you, as their leader to guide them to the proper way of using the skills and self-confidence. It is up to you to remind these cadets that they may have been to an elite school, but they are themselves not elite. It's up to you to set one standard for all your cadets and yes, I think they can handle responsibility if they can handle bragging about themselves being hot stuff. In the end, unauthorize the wear of special uniform items and relax.

Ummm... I don't have a problem with my cadets nor have I ever had a problem with my cadets and their attitudes.  Cadets that are under the supervision of wanna-bes who preach "Ranger" this and "Ranger" that.  Instead of letting cadets be themselves with some guidance from humble adults, they push and instill a need for elitism. 

Please, stop being the "parent who blames the school for bad behavior of his/her children". You are where the buck has to stop. The school is a school, not the teenager tamer. That's your job if you are the cadet programs officer.

No, I don't "blame the school", I blame the "parent", i.e. people, or adults in the is case, that push such attitudes on their cadets.

I guess we're just opposites.  Only life will tell the difference in our leadership styles. 

[sschwab]

Just my 0.02,

Wow, I feel lucky, I don't think I ever encountered a Ranger, and going by this thread I don't want too.  I will say I just finished a three weekend course to get GT3 qualified, with some of the instructors being NESA graduates.  These graduates where good teachers, if that is because of NESA course, gaining confidence by going through NESA, or just because of the type of person they were before NESA, I'll never know.  I would bet that it was more do to the personality before NESA then anything else; they are just good kids. 

From dealing with the world inside and outside of CAP, I have found someone who is motivated to get a fancy title, for the sake of title, probably does not deserve it.  The people that get the extra training because they need the skills or just want to improve themselves, probably don't care about the title or its special uniform accessories.  The people who deserve the title and have taking the training, understand they are still just a member of a team, and they may be walking around you in normal BDUs.

Finally, I have to agree with the earlier comment, if you have Rangers who are acting superior, and that is causing friction in the squadron, it is the Squadron Commander's responsibility to snap that the Ranger back into line, and into plain BDUs if need be.

All the fancy titles and ribbons may make look good, but it does not mean more then the rank on the collar.  Promote and reward members who help the squadron, not themselves.

[Stonewall]

RANGERSIGO.

Sir, thank you for your post, which I agree with.

In no way am I comparing Army Rangers with CAP Rangers.  The only similarity is the name.  And actually, I am not against the name.  Hawk Mountain Ranger School has been in existence for a long time.  I don't know off the top of my head, but I think its more than 40 years.

I am a fan of special operations and absolute agree with their existence, especially 75th Ranger Regiment.  I am a former Army Infantry guy myself and have had many fellow NCOs sport the Ranger Tab, Combat Scroll, or at least the Regimental Crest as their affiliation.  As a civilian, I worked 5 years for a government agency where I trained, trained with, and worked with SOCOM guys from every branch.  And the last 5 years I spent on a protection detail that consisted of former battalion Rangers and SFers alike.  Now I'm a cop and my sergeant is a retired First Sergeant,  RI and Ranger from all 3 battalions.  I just wanted to be clear that I am not, in any way, saying anything negative about Army Rangers. 

My beef is with CAP's "ranger mentality".  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 15 year old wanting to emulate an Army Ranger, PJ, Fighter Pilot, Firefighter, SWAT Cop, Doctor, or Chef.  But CAP's "ranger community" does not support that, instead, it has been my experience that, like RangerSigo said, a cocky swagger with a holier than thou attitude.  As if, once they've been to a CAP Ranger Course that's it, they're the Bee's Knees and don't need to prove anything to anyone else, ever.  Their Orange Ascot should say it all.  And that is not how a "quiet professional" carries themself.  I think most here would agree.

I am not knocking the training that Hawk gives.  There is no doubt that it is very useful and is taught by subject matter experts.  But I think one thing is missing and one thing needs to go.  What is missing is the need to teach the young motivated students to carry themselves as humbled professionals.  And while they aren't professionals by definition; there is nothing wrong with instilling that type of attitude at a young age.  What needs to go is the mentality that you have can't be cool without a tab, badge, whistle, hat, beret, or pistol belt.

I think by taking away the accoutrement's that go along with going to Hawk (or any CAP ranger program) would change the attitudes of those who attend.  Unfortunately, it may also decrease the numbers of those who wish to go.  Not sure about that one.

And RangerSigo.  I do like your idea of getting people of a similar background together and setting up a leadership SAR program with the right goals in mind.  I was fortunate to be a part of a wing, and more specifically a squadron, for the past 15 years where we had a fairly large number of former BTDT types.  SF, Ranger, Airborne Infantry, SOG, Intel, TACP (old school guy from Vietnam, think they called them something different), standard Infantry, and a handful of Army and Air Force pilot types.  All of which were very level headed and had an amazing impact on the cadets for over 20 years.  Unfortunately they've all moved on, retired from CAP or moved up to higher headquarters.  So yes, I do know what it feels like to be in that environment, even in CAP.

I am now in a new wing and new squadron.  I am simply the leadership officer and I'm fine with that.  I've got my own 8 month cadet at home now and a job that has me rotating days off (5 on 4 off).  I'm still getting to know people and how this wing operates.  Very pleased, but wasn't so happy when I learned about the Ranger Program.  Time will tell.

[afgeo4]

Was it you who said "Instead, I've got a cadet in my squadron with a starched BDU cap with the top pushed down to be a "Ranger Roll", a white pistol belt, whistle and ascot around their neck.  The other 15 cadets all look to standard, CAP standard, but then there's this one person out of place.  Just gets me hot under the collar"?

If yes, then I think you owe me a small apology for your tone in reply. If not, then please check if anyone else is using your screen name to post on this board.

[LTC_Gadget]

I do believe that it is elite for CAP.

Advanced, maybe. Elite; um, no.  Check the dictionary, and don't confuse the two.  Elite means the best of the best.  One can's simply be elite because they show up somewhere, or survive somewhere.  One would be elite because of what one does. And if one is truly the best at something, he/she doesn't have to tell everyone, or wear a uniform device to signify or prove it.  Others will see it in their deeds and actions.

I do believe that your cadets have an attitude.

Not his cadets, "Ranger" cadets/seniors

I do think you need to lighten up and understand that cadets are teenagers and at their point in life they don't have much to be proud of aside from activities such as HM.

While it might be a reason, it is by NO MEANS a justification or an excuse. Part of growing up is learning what merits pride and what doesn't. Part of growing up is learning that saying it doesn't make it so. Part of growing up is learning that false pride is just that.  Telling him to 'lighten up' is also a bit of excessive tone on your part. Rank aside, it's simply rude.

As teenagers, they are prone to wear all the crazy garb that comes with this membership in the HM Rangers and not to just quietly offer their newly gained expertise.

And part of our responsibility is to help them learn to put into perspective exactly what their attendance meant, and what it didn't.  Again, "expertise?"  One training class doesn't make one an expert at anything.  Trained, yes.  Advanced, maybe.  Expert?.. up for discussion.

In large part, the people at HM give the cadets just enough attitude rope with which to hang themselves which they seem to be able to do all on their own with great regularity.

Please, stop being the "parent who blames the school for bad behavior of his/her children". You are where the buck has to stop. The school is a school, not the teenager tamer. That's your job if you are the cadet programs officer.

The attitude doesn't spontaneously generate from out of nowhere, especially as many times as has been witnessed by us all.  The seniors and senior cadets there can't preach it for the length of the activity, and then retain culpable deniability when a cadet gets back to his unit and cops an attitude.  Methinks thou doth protest too much.  If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, chances are, it's a duck..

V/R,

[Stonewall]

Was it you who said "Instead, I've got a cadet in my squadron with a starched BDU cap with the top pushed down to be a "Ranger Roll", a white pistol belt, whistle and ascot around their neck.  The other 15 cadets all look to standard, CAP standard, but then there's this one person out of place.  Just gets me hot under the collar"?

If yes, then I think you owe me a small apology for your tone in reply. If not, then please check if anyone else is using your screen name to post on this board.

I'm new at a squadron.  They aren't "my cadets".  Its a cadet at my new squadron.  Plus, I was refering to my past experiences in CAP, over the past 20 years, not in the last week.

[Eclipse]

^ me personally I love it when one of the Ranger types gets TWO (2) web belts and attaches them together to fit  around themselves.  AND they still Wear BDU's. 

milk...life cereal...through...nose....

[desert rat]

Even though I have played Air force and Army and have been through some very tough and interesting training, I still think Hawk Mountin would be fun.  Doing the huhha without having to worry about someone shooting at you is cool.

I hope to go to it sometime in the next few years.  Firt I want to tak my son to the Blue Baret program. (my son wants the beret pretty bad)

[JC004]

...Doing the huhha without having to worry about someone shooting at you is cool....

Just keep in mind that the facility has state game lands all around.   

[SAR-EMT1]

I have no experience with HMRS, at one point I thought it would be neat to go... till I had an online 'chat' with a graduate of their "medic" program.
The elitism attitute by (CAP) Rangers scares me.

Those who were Godly enough -  -  to serve in the real 75th, thank you.

[CAPSeahawk8]

I have read the whole thread and here is my 2 cents worth,
         I am a graduate of Hawk Mountain back in the old days having attended both the summer and winter programs. The schools were alot of fun and a good portion of the training was good as well. Being from the relative flatlands of eastern NC the mountain rescue and repelling was a waste of time. The other training for the most part was useful. When my team came back we were a bit elitist but no more than before we left we were teenagers. Fast Forward to today, I have cadets who attend Hawk every year, the only bling they get to wear is the patch. I tell them to take the school as a learning tool and apply what the learn to our particular area. And they do without any drama, mostly because we don't tolerate it. We have a Expert ranger in our group who helps teach at our Ground Team School, he shares these same beliefs. If knowledge is power than collect it from as many sources as possible and keep what fits your area best. I now instruct at the wing GT school and also teach GSAR at the MER SAR College( which I think is one of the best ideas around). Don't group all CAP Rangers together because we are not all that way. Some of us take what we learned and run with it all the way to Incident Commander.

Capt Andy Wiggs
ES Training Officer, NC Wing
CV, Group 3 NC Wing
Ranger

[sarmed1]

..ok thats my que.....
As a often proponent of HMRS I'll chime in for a few.
Me personally:

I hate the bling, the whistle chain looks dumb as does the belt and the ascot.
I am not really big on the shirt (except maybe in the field) and give me a patrol cap anyday.

There is nothing elite about the school or the training it provides.  If you show up, pay your cash and can suffer through living in a tent on the side of a hill through heat, rain and cold (all in the same week) you can graduate the school.  Given for some this is a major accomplishment, and for many students this is the first time they have had to apply themselves in a "difficult" environment, especially under the feeling of succeede or go home (which never happens, unless you cry your way home, just like encampments) but nothing that makes you "uber" special.

Some school background and insights:
the school was initially a survival oriented school, that addressed some SAR techniques.  As time went on they added more and more to the SAR curriculum while retaining the survival/outdoor living theme.  It wasnt until the late 90's that CAP as a whole added any kind of skill or performance requirements for any 101 qualification.  HMRS has had requiremetns and performance standards for survival and SAR since at least the 70's.  This is where I personally believe the attitude of "I am a better SAR person than you" came from, as most everyone else had no standards and with that almost no realistic training.  That has made an almost 180 degree turn since NHQ has insistead on standards for GTM's.  Almost leaving HMRS in the dust (they have only in the past 5 years or so incoroorated GTM/GBD qualifications into they ranger grades and training objectives.
What the school teaches.  This is a little complicated.  On the outside and basilar levels HMRS still teaches wilderness survival, wilderness mobility, first aid, communications and Search and Rescue techniques. 
On the not so visable side they also teach leadership training.  The cadet staff training program not only creates a place to gain cadet staff but serves as a leadership labratory for teaching and reinforcing the concepts of followership, leadership, teamwork and a bit of how to teach and instruct all the while with an ES undertone.

On the rope thing: Actually a big part of the "Rope Rescue" course is still leadership and teamwork (since you cant perform that type of technical rescue without those two things).  Honestly the average graduate doesnt know poop about rope rescue other than a few basic knots and they did a rappel and a belay.
Very few actually come out of the program able to effect that kind of rescue.  How does that course apply to ya'll outside of the mountains?  With a few exceptions there is no place in the US that is perfectly flat.  Everywhere has hills, valleys, holes in the ground, and other changes in elevation.  The same techniques, rigging and hauling systems that get a stokes basket and a tender up an over the edge of a 200 ft cliff are the same for a stokes four attendants up a 20 ft 45 degree emabankment because its closer than a 2 mile hike out.

The medic course:  My personal interest.  The main focus isnt actually emergency treatment and paragod type life saving of airplane crash victims.   Its how to help your team stay fit and healthy while trying to find the crashed plane (or whatever the mission).  Something that is often lacking in many of the EMT and Paramedic types that want to bring the ambulance on thier back while supporting CAP SAR ops.

A personal beefs with those that have beefs:
Many people say they havent found a grad that isnt all into themselves and the program as the have all, do all save all...that they need to be more quite like real SPECOPS types.  How do you know you havent meet them and they were being the quite proffesional, you just also met the loud mouth ones, and those are the ones that stand out. 
I could save a 100 people this year in CAP, but I kill one and thats all anyone is going to remember me for.  The same applies to HMRS grads, you meet one that is the kind we all dislike, and any other is going to fade into obscurity.  I have meet the same types from NESA, HMRS, BB, Honor Guard, PJOC and half a dozen other local only activites including encampments and leadership schools, both cadet and officer.  (10 years away from PA, its not just a HMRS problem)  But this is especailly a problem with the young and easily impressionalble (like most of the students there and eslewhere) and can easily overflow into the prior cadet turned senior member. (not an excuse for anyone, jut an observation)

I still stand behind the fact that the school is an excellent place to learn SAR and wilderness survival.  If you want to learn Rope Rescue, its also a good place if you want Ropes and Rigging and Rope I, II and III (basically technical for all you NFPA types, and not something you will generally get to do in CAP)
For cadets that like ES and the boy scout camping type thing its also a good place to learn about teamwork and leadership.  I am happy with their staff training program (mostly) I think 6 months of 2 weekends a month for a 10 day activity is better than the 2 days of RST most encampments do, and turn out some decent cadet staff members.
Again none of that makes you a SAR guru, but it puts you on the path if thats the route you want to take.  It is by no means the only way to do things, but it is not a bad one.  I certainly think its one of those things you really have to expereince for yourself before you make a judgement; good or bad.

questions, bring 'em on

mk

[mikeylikey]

 ^ No doubt the school teaches some good stuff.  They can however stop using the word Ranger (with everything) they teach up there. 

[sarmed1]

No doubt the school teaches some good stuff.  They can however stop using the word Ranger (with everything) they teach up there.

why?

[Rangersigo]

No doubt the school teaches some good stuff.  They can however stop using the word Ranger (with everything) they teach up there.

why?

This might be a good idea as the term Ranger has connotations for a variety of specialties, why not incorporate it into the existing qualifications at some additional special skill or rating.  Remove the name, the elitism goes with it...

[mikeylikey]

No doubt the school teaches some good stuff.  They can however stop using the word Ranger (with everything) they teach up there.

why?

BECASUE it produces individuals that look and act different than the rest of us.  Lets be one team here.....not "RANGERS, and then everyone else".  As witnessed after Katrina, the Rangers (and those leading them) were very unprofessional.  They would not abide by the rules and at one point decided to just up and quit because they were not getting what they wanted. 

-spelling-

[Stonewall]

I think PJOC is an excellent example of my original message regarding elitism and CAP's Ranger program.

Prior to every special activity getting an NCSA patch for their right shoulder, PJOC was the ideal "hooah course" without a single bell or whistle.  PJOC is NOT an emergency services course, however, I think most would agree that there are aspects of PJOC that are beneficial to field work. 

Over the past 15 years as a senior working directly with cadets at the squadron level, I have had as many as 20 of my cadets go to PJOC.  None of them ever came back with a single elitist attitude.  There wasn't even a title for them other than "PJOC graduate".  Heck, I even had an [advanced] PJOC failure come back.  Talk about a true humbling experience.  No berets, no special badges, and not a single chip on their shoulder.  In fact, more than anything, I think it was a gut check and humbling experience.  If the young teenager had any sort of swagger before hand, for no reason, they certainly had a reason upon their return.  However, I have yet to see one.

I remember PJOC giving out a Pararescue lapel pin or tie tack; not even allowed on the uniform.  Just a small thing to bring home and throw on a book bag or on the bookshelf.

No uniform accoutrements, not even a high speed title like "Ranger".  I think that speaks in and of itself.

[sarmed1]

Back to Kirts original problem:  as its is one that in one way shape or form seems echoed by many.

I'd say use that energy productively for you own needs.  Tell them this isnt PA we dont have Ranger Teams, but we do have ground teams and their is no reason they cant apply the same interest and ES ability to create a rocking cadet Ground Team.

I'd make them:
1-AAR their visit to PA,
2-Point paper and present the pros and cons of the "Ranger Team" concept and why it benifits the squadron both from a cadet trainig persepctive and a ES/Ops persepctive
3-Have them develop a trainig outline/plan that encorporates their "new" ideas as well as existing ES training plans and even any local specialty needs, plus a time line.

See what happens.
If it was just about bling and a idealistic name, my guess is failure.  If they actually learned something and are genuinely interested and capable in ES it might be worth your while.   
mk