Discrimination or Not? Excluded after asking for policy changes to be published

[ZigZag911]

If your squadron has no chaplain, try group or wing HQ.

[PilotMan]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with what "discrimination" is.   Maybe they just don't like you.  A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

You asked to have a written policy and now you are kept from participating in activities?  There is either more to the story or you unit is weird.

New Squadron Commander...... Need I say too much more? 

[Eclipse]

New Squadron Commander...... Need I say too much more?

Yes, you need, at least if you want informed opinion on the matter.

The above just makes it sound even more like typical "You can't, I won't, you can't make me..."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think you need to familiarize yourself with what "discrimination" is.   Maybe they just don't like you.  A commander can institute policies within his own unit for a whole list of things as long as they are not countering a CAP policy. 

You asked to have a written policy and now you are kept from participating in activities?  There is either more to the story or you unit is weird.

New Squadron Commander...... Need I say too much more? 

A new Squadron Commander may or may not know the butt end of CAP regulations from a phone book; however, that does not make the action you describe discriminatory.

Believe me, I've been there.  I filed a complaint against a former employer through the Americans with Disabilities Act.  If what you have experienced indeed turns out to be discrimination, I'm sympathetic.

However, as it stands, I'm not seeing it.

[Flying Pig]

Reading through some of the posts... .I really don't see where bringing the unit chaplain in on this issue is proper.   This isn't a counseling issue.  This is a member who has an issue with a policy set forth by the commander.  Sitting down with the two players with the Chaplain in the middle moderating is not what the chaplain is there for.  I would be pretty disappointed with my chaplain if he/she allowed themselves to be used by the membership to attempt to manipulate my decisions.   If a Sq CC makes a policy you don't agree with, or implements it in a manner you don't agree with, run it up the chain of command.

[PilotMan]

Reading through some of the posts... .I really don't see where bringing the unit chaplain in on this issue is proper.   This isn't a counseling issue.  This is a member who has an issue with a policy set forth by the commander.  Sitting down with the two players with the Chaplain in the middle moderating is not what the chaplain is there for.  I would be pretty disappointed with my chaplain if he/she allowed themselves to be used by the membership to attempt to manipulate my decisions.   If a Sq CC makes a policy you don't agree with, or implements it in a manner you don't agree with, run it up the chain of command.

Some of the decisions are good and being a new commander, he wants to be extra careful.  Problem is one can not remember all the rule changes, policies, and procedures and they are not posted anywhere.

I was recently written up, or counseled as its called, for not following a verbal enacted procedure to use an equipment sign out sheet that was a blank piece of paper thrown in the locker.  I sent the projector out for repair and told the squadron commander about the repair.  And as mentioned.... was written up.   Now funny thing is the projector was not even in inventory and was hidden during SUI.  Ill tell you!!! :clap:

This is only a drop in the bucket of bazaar going on in this wing.     Im now going towards the "WHATEVER" feeling toward CAP.  Bunch a over zealous new blood running around honking their horns.   

[Flying Pig]

Yeah... my issue with the idea of suggesting we bring the chaplain in as the moderator on the matter.

[Eclipse]

I was recently written up, or counseled as its called, for not following a verbal enacted procedure to use an equipment sign out sheet that was a blank piece of paper thrown in the locker.  I sent the projector out for repair and told the squadron commander about the repair.  And as mentioned.... was written up.   Now funny thing is the projector was not even in inventory and was hidden during SUI.

We're shocked.

Have we ever seen a case like this where little "rubs" don't leak out the sides of a complaint?

The projector may not have needed to be in the "inventory", and if it should be, and you were aware of it, you were complicit,
either way, don't wave that around as a "gotcha".

If you have actionable items, complaints, or issues with regulations that were violated, stand up and file the complaints, or don't,
but don't be "that guy" that whines and complains in the back of the room and makes a "list" of grievances and slights for later use.

This is only a drop in the bucket of bazaar going on in this wing.     Im now going towards the "WHATEVER" feeling toward CAP.  Bunch a over zealous new blood running around honking their horns.   

If you wait long enough, generally the whole landscape comes out.

You were told to do something, you "forgot", and you want to turn it into a discrimination complaint because you were called out on it.

I guess "Sorry, Sir, I forgot." was out of the question.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I guess "Sorry, Sir, I forgot." was out of the question.

One thing I learnt from my first day of AF BMT was the phrase "No excuses, Sir."  It didn't mean I didn't get a posterior shredding from the MTI, but sometimes it mitigated it.

One thing I often tell subordinates and cadets: Anyone can make an error - it only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it.

[lordmonar]

I guess "Sorry, Sir, I forgot." was out of the question.

One thing I learnt from my first day of AF BMT was the phrase "No excuses, Sir."  It didn't mean I didn't get a posterior shredding from the MTI, but sometimes it mitigated it.

One thing I often tell subordinates and cadets: Anyone can make an error - it only becomes a mistake if you refuse to correct it.

I hate that line.   I thank the FSM that my TI did not make us say it.

It is stupid, idiotic and counter productive.

Of course there is an excuse...i.e. an explanation of why you failed to complete the task/mission.  Sometimes is was your fault, sometimes it was someone else's fault, sometime it was the equipment, sometimes the hand of God came down and ruined your day.

If the only acceptable answer is "No excuse Sir!"........Why do you ask questions like "why are you late?"   It is clear that you don't care about the "why" so why waste your and my time asking stupid questions?   

Sorry.......for the rant......"No Excuse Sir!" is just one of my pet peeves.

[SarDragon]

I differentiate between "excuse" and "reason".

A reason is a legitimate explanation for why something did or didn't happen.

an explanation of why you failed to complete the task/mission.  Sometimes is was your fault, sometimes it was someone else's fault, sometime it was the equipment, sometimes the hand of God came down and ruined your day.

OTOH, an excuse is usually a lame attempt to mitigate a really bad decision, or negligent behaviour, like, "My dog ate my homework." Everyone knows you didn't really do your homework, but the teacher might have a tiny bit of sympathy. Or not. Or just laugh as the zero goes in the grade book.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Sorry.......for the rant......"No Excuse Sir!" is just one of my pet peeves.

Master Sergeant, no offence intended, but somehow I had an inkling if someone was going to shoot down what I say, even if I am endeavouring to be positive and helpful, you will take it upon yourself to do so.

[gshayd]

I work for in a military organization as a civilian plus I have over 28 years as an NCO. We have bulletin boards where the Commander posts his policies.  As the Commanders representative I put out polices and put them in writing. Have you ever done that exercise where you tell a person something and he tells the next person and 30 people down the line it sounds nothing like what was said originally?  If it is in writing that communication policy is not subject to communication problems such as this.  I would submit that if a policy is important to a Commander he should put it in writing and post it so there is no mis-communication about the Commanders intent and what he wants to be done. That way if his policy is not done the individual can be counseled and can't say that 2LT Snuffy told me the policy was X,Y,Z.  Proper communication will solve most of your problems and avoid incidents where a person feels they were wronged. Plus you have what you need to counsel the individual in order to apply corrective actions to remove the problem.   I deal with Soldiers ever day.  When they come in and start telling me that they are being wronged I can pull out the written policy and end any argument or disagreement on the spot. Plus while they are they I counsel them in writing to ensure that they know about the policy so it quashes any difference of opinion in the future and I can get on to solving the really important problems.

[ZigZag911]

Yeah... my issue with the idea of suggesting we bring the chaplain in as the moderator on the matter.

It is entirely appropriate, and in fact part of the chaplain's role, to assist in improving communications within the unit when there is a breakdown...not to take sides, and certainly not to "manipulate" the commander, but to serve as an objective 3rd party helping each person involved understand the other's position.

[Flying Pig]

Id disagree.  This is also a policy that could affect the Chaplain.  The chaplains job is not to mediate issues of policy of command decisions.  But OK, you can utilize your chaplain however you see fit. Since we follow a para-military model are chaplains brought in with 2Lt Jones doesn't agree with Col Rogers in the Air Force?   My LE agency has Chaplains.   There are plenty of things the Sheriff implements that people do not like.   Ive never seen the Dept Chaplain brought in to mediate those disagreements.    Now with CAP.  This is a command decision on how to deal with a particular issue.  There is a chain of command set in place to deal with disagreements or misunderstandings.   The Chaplain is not a part of it.  The  member needs to meet with the Deputy Commander for Seniors and explain his issues.  That person can then take it to the commander, if the unit is that formal.  If the member does not like the decision or how it was handled it goes up the chain.  Im not seeing, as it was described, that this is a matter of one-on-one mediation.  As a former CC, if my chaplain intervened like this, I would politely stop the conversation and bring in my Deputy Commander and we would discuss the situation.  Not have the Chaplain sit between us and say "OK commander, now its your turn to speak."   My father spent several years as a CAP chaplain.  I ran the scenario past him.  His response was "absolutely not something the chaplain gets involved in."  His personal opinion.   

The chaplains roll in a Squadron is not to insure the commander and his people understand his policies.  If there is an issue, he can definitely step in as a member.  But to suggest that its the chaplains roll to address a scenario like this it out of their scope of responsibility. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If nothing else, a Chaplain with good mediation skills (experience and training in such matters, which not all clergy have) can, if nothing else, help to lower the emotional temperature of the aggrieved parties and thus steer the discussion more toward rationality.

But not always.

[abdsp51]

Still not the Chaplain's place.  If the member has an issue he needs to take it up with the CC and/or higher if need be.  Hard to say in this case as the full story is not being told.

[Chappie]

Id disagree.  This is also a policy that could affect the Chaplain.  The chaplains job is not to mediate issues of policy of command decisions.  But OK, you can utilize your chaplain however you see fit. Since we follow a para-military model are chaplains brought in with 2Lt Jones doesn't agree with Col Rogers in the Air Force?   My LE agency has Chaplains.   There are plenty of things the Sheriff implements that people do not like.   Ive never seen the Dept Chaplain brought in to mediate those disagreements.    Now with CAP.  This is a command decision on how to deal with a particular issue.  There is a chain of command set in place to deal with disagreements or misunderstandings.   The Chaplain is not a part of it.  The  member needs to meet with the Deputy Commander for Seniors and explain his issues.  That person can then take it to the commander, if the unit is that formal.  If the member does not like the decision or how it was handled it goes up the chain.  Im not seeing, as it was described, that this is a matter of one-on-one mediation.  As a former CC, if my chaplain intervened like this, I would politely stop the conversation and bring in my Deputy Commander and we would discuss the situation.  Not have the Chaplain sit between us and say "OK commander, now its your turn to speak."   My father spent several years as a CAP chaplain.  I ran the scenario past him.  His response was "absolutely not something the chaplain gets involved in."  His personal opinion.   

The chaplains roll in a Squadron is not to insure the commander and his people understand his policies.  If there is an issue, he can definitely step in as a member.  But to suggest that its the chaplains roll to address a scenario like this it out of their scope of responsibility.

Spot on....if the Commander should ask for my counsel/opinion that is one thing.  But to take every member's concern/complaint to the commander is not the Chaplain's responsibility.    However, if I feel that there is a major ground swell of discontent that would have great impact on the mission of the squadron and the commander would suffer I would share with the commander of the impending storm.  One should never let the commander be "blindsided". 

[Chappie]

Reading through some of the posts... .I really don't see where bringing the unit chaplain in on this issue is proper.   This isn't a counseling issue.  This is a member who has an issue with a policy set forth by the commander.  Sitting down with the two players with the Chaplain in the middle moderating is not what the chaplain is there for.  I would be pretty disappointed with my chaplain if he/she allowed themselves to be used by the membership to attempt to manipulate my decisions.   If a Sq CC makes a policy you don't agree with, or implements it in a manner you don't agree with, run it up the chain of command.

Concur

[ZigZag911]

CAPR 20-1 Position Description:
"The chaplain is a member of the commander's staff at all echelons of command, and as such is the advisor to the commander and
his/her staff on matters of religion, morals, and the well being of personnel under his/her command". (emphasis mine)

One problem in CAP, as I see it (and I've been in continuous service since joining as a cadet in 1970 and have been a commander, deputy commander, chief of staff at various levels)) is people making mountains out of molehills...which is what leads to lack of comprehension, lack of motivation and lack of membership retention.

All of this has led to an absolutely ridiculous number of formal complaints about picayune matters, which wastes a lot of time of people who could be doing useful, positive things for CAP.

A mediator can help people at odds get what each other is saying.

This is a good thing.

Clarity (regarding the policy at the root of this issue) does not undermine command authority, it enhances it.

Talking a perceived problem through with a member who feels wronged does not make the commander seem weak, but rather as someone who is actually concerned about the members.

The CAP IG complaint process calls for resolving disputes at the lowest level possible...ideally, the original squadron or flight. Often this is an informal approach...and an objective third part with experience mediating between people (like a chaplain or legal officer) can help keep the conversation issue focused (rather than personality focused).

A commander should be primarily interested in accomplishing the mission and motivating members to contribute to this end.

We should use whatever resources are available -- and leave our egos outside the meeting place!