Firearms on Ground Teams

[GSARmedic]

GSARmedic

I did not say I do not want you in CAP because you disagree with me.  I said I would not want you in CAP because you cannot understand the simple rule....No Guns.

Yes...this thread is old.

Yes...you are just stating your opinion.

But....because this is an old opinionated thread......you have stated the same old arguments that actually support CAP's position of why we don't allow guns.

Bear in the woods....walk away.
Snake Pit....walk away.
Locked door.....wait for the owner.
Too scared to go down town for the meeting....don't go.

Sorry if this seems harsh.   I have to be harsh because I have seen too many people interpret discussion of the benefits of allowing arms to be implicit authorization to do so.

So....no.  No guns in CAP.

Thank you for the polite response. Again I was only offering an opinion and then had to vehemently defend myself from counter-arguments that were out of the context that I was intending.

I will therefore not-so-gracefully bow out on this subject.

I'll brush off the inference that I am a "Mall Ninja" I don't own tactical gear. Nor present myself as some sort of Special Forces wannabe whahoo. I have too much respect for our operators, especially my father and uncles, and the others who have trained me on what it means to be a soldier. I am not a veteran, nor do I go around wearing my CAP uniform attempting to portray a veteran.

Actually, I was referring to the outlandish situations where your skills and equipment were called into action.  Tactical gear doesn't make the Mall Ninja.  Mall Ninja is a mindset, and you're displaying that mindset.

I am only using bold in the post to define my responses from the other poster.

Whatever you may think of the situation. Outlandish or what not. I never said that I did anything except witness what others did and run from two sets of snakes. How does that make me a Mall Ninja?
[/color]

The anecdotes, were not meant to be funny, but rather examples of situations that I witnessed. When I thought it was wrong, I stated so. When I thought it was an example of why a firearm would be a useful tool, I stated so. Whether you decide to make a judgement call on my ability to utilize proper judgement based off of something I saw and not something I did or didn't do is a bit narrow minded, but it is your right none the less.

I have to admit that the visual of you being chased by gang bangers while in the back of an ambulance made me chuckle.  The added visual of you as a paramedic having a firearm and shooting BACK in the middle of a high speed ambulance chase gave me a good giggle.

I'm not judging you in the least bit.  But that's not the same as you remaining credible in my eyes.

The first instance of being shot at, I was not in the ambulance. We were on scene and had to duck behind a car and a tree for protection. The chase was only stopped by us driving through a set up police barrier where the police returned fire and were able to apprehend all of the suspects alive. In hindsight I would have wanted to have a gun to fire back and scare them off. Whether or not that would have been feasible or effective, I don't know. It's just how I feel after feeling helpless.

I don't trust people who are reluctant to carry a firearm, because those same people are reluctant to use them when the need arises. While my one example had to do with a snake, other situations, especially in the state of Florida can be just as much a reason; gators, bobcats, black bear, feral hogs, or coyotes are abundant in the various parts of Florida. We have had 2 bear maulings in a upper-middle class neighborhood since the beginning of the year. Don't believe me? Google it. There are also news reports of people who have been attacked by feral hogs, some were out there hunting the hogs, others were just in their backyards.

I didn't say afraid of them.  I said reluctant to carry them.  Professionals carry the tools they need to get a job done.  Amateurs carry things for the coolness factor or because they visualize an unlikely scenario in their head where they'll need a particular tool for.  So think about this...why would I ever want you on a ground team with me if your first instinct on seeing a snake is to draw down and blaze away?

If you're looking at a situation where you believe that you may need a firearm....perhaps your first thought should be to realize that you're the wrong resource to send.

As I have stated it is not my first response, but my last option. Only IF I have the option.

My point is, we don't know where we will be when a dangerous situation will arise. That's all. I could be on a UDF team in Seminole County FL and come across a black bear or more than one, because they are so prevalent even in populated areas. Also, ask anyone who has lived in Florida for most of their life. You treat everybody of water as if there is an alligator in it. Even retention ponds.

So your first thought is to shoot the bear?  If you're on a UDF team, perhaps your first thought should be to seek refuge in the van you're driving around.  If you're on a UDF team, you're not going to be far from your vehicle.

Agreed and previously posted that UDF teams were not what I was considering when I gave my opinion. I was again only talking about the lack of our control over the environment.

Okay...alligators.  Don't go swimming while you're on a ground team in Florida in bodies of water that you can't see the bottom in.  I've been within 10 feet of wild alligators without them deciding that they're going to chase me down.  Keep your distance from them.  Seems simple to me.

Finally, Liability, regs, etc.
Yes, these limitations prevent the use of firearms, however, they could also be argued to prevent the use of vehicles and aircraft. But what did the organization do to overcome these liabilities?

Seriously?  We're going down this lane?  But okay....Do you have any idea of all the hoops one has to jump through to sit in the left seat of a CAP aircraft?  If you do, that answers your question.

They created regulations to control the proper use and to form a basis of qualification for the user to obtain authorization. So in theory, just like a CAP driver's license being necessary to operate a CAP vehicle, beyond having a valid state driver's license, CAP could generate the same regs and qualifications to authorize GTMs or GTLs to carry a firearm in the field only. And require them to provide proof of proficiency and proper knowledge/judgement.

No....Just.....No.
[/quote]

[Ned]

Here's the MythBusters segment where they were unable to shoot open a padlock with a handgun, even with multiple rounds.

(But did very well well with the 30-06 and shotgun slug, if you don't mind the shrapnel.)

[LSThiker]

its not as simple as it looks.

Agreed.  I always laugh when someone does it with a single bullet (pistol no less) in a movie.  It is like the old "shoot the door above the lock somehow unlocks the door".  Absolute magic.

 

[LSThiker]

Here's the MythBusters segment where they were unable to shoot open a padlock with a handgun, even with multiple rounds.

(But did very well well with the 30-06 and shotgun slug, if you don't mind the shrapnel.)

Oh I forgot about that episode.  Good one.

[Garibaldi]

Or...or...

You could put a propane tank up against the lock, attach a length of garden hose, sealed with gum, turn on the propane, get a blank starter gun, fire it in the hose, and the resulting explosion will blow not only the lock, but the door and what/whoever happens to be immediately behind the door.

Saw it on an episode of My Name Is Earl a few years ago.

What?

[THRAWN]

Or...or...

You could put a propane tank up against the lock, attach a length of garden hose, sealed with gum, turn on the propane, get a blank starter gun, fire it in the hose, and the resulting explosion will blow not only the lock, but the door and what/whoever happens to be immediately behind the door.

Saw it on an episode of My Name Is Earl a few years ago.

What?

Or, MacGuyver, if you had a paperplate, cement mixer and a roll of duct tape....

[a2capt]

But for all intents, it might as well be a wall of tissue paper. Because we can't cross it. Gun, lighter, scissors, whatever.

[LSThiker]

Or, MacGuyver, if you had a paperplate, cement mixer and a roll of duct tape....

Psh.  Two words:  Sonic screwdriver

[Eclipse]

(Too broke to read)

Just use the quote function and stop trying to be creative, or break it into multiple messages.

[LSThiker]

In hindsight I would have wanted to have a gun to fire back and scare them off.

Scare them off?  No that is not the purpose of a firearm.  The only time you pull a firearm is with the intention of killing. 

[Panzerbjorn]

The first instance of being shot at, I was not in the ambulance. We were on scene and had to duck behind a car and a tree for protection. The chase was only stopped by us driving through a set up police barrier where the police returned fire and were able to apprehend all of the suspects alive. In hindsight I would have wanted to have a gun to fire back and scare them off. Whether or not that would have been feasible or effective, I don't know. It's just how I feel after feeling helpless.

Yessir....that's exactly what you said:

Besides being a GTM since I was 14, I was an EMT when I turned 16 and worked in rural, suburb, and urban (Atlantic City and Orlando) areas. I have been shot at by gang members while trying to pick up a victim of a drive-by even after the "Scene was secured by the PD", I've been chased and shot at while in an ambulance by a vehicle that contained the original shooters who didn't want my patient to survive. It's scary. You are not allowed to carry a firearm on an ambulance pretty much anywhere. I was defenseless. All I was trying to do was save a life. [The same reason many of us/you go out there on these SAR missions, that's what the R stands for, Rescue] It was in those moments that I wish I had a firearm to stop the guys shooting at me. To defend myself.

Anyway, I'm afraid you've stopped being taken seriously...At least by me, if not by most people here.  Thank you for the entertainment.  I'm done. 

[Eclipse]

Do you have any idea of all the hoops one has to jump through to sit in the left seat of a CAP aircraft?  If you do, that answers your question.

Hoops?

You need...a PPL, a current medical, and a check ride.  Hardly "hoops".

[Panzerbjorn]

Do you have any idea of all the hoops one has to jump through to sit in the left seat of a CAP aircraft?  If you do, that answers your question.

Hoops?

You need...a PPL, a current medical, and a check ride.  Hardly "hoops".

PPL is a pretty big hoop, my friend.  Then there's the check ride every year, and every new different aircraft (C172, C182, G1000, etc.). Every flight you make there are hoops to jump through before you crank the engine.  The system is designed to check you out and make sure you're not going to bend the aircraft or the people on board.

Hoops.

[THRAWN]

I fired you for a reason OP. You still havent learned. Im done with this topic and thread. Good luck.

[Luis R. Ramos]

GSARM-

You are forgetting the following found on Senior Member Applications. Re-read it if you forgot it. Pay special attention to those bold areas... As a matter of fact, there are a number of seniors who join then complain when they do not like those regulations they swore to obey. I was a member of a squadron that when a senior member promotes, they have to repeat this oath in front of the entire squadron, cadets and senior members alike!

OATH OF MEMBERSHIP
(READ CAREFULLY BEFORE SIGNING)

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that:

I understand membership in the Civil Air Patrol is a privilege, not a right, and that membership is on a year - to - year basis subject to recurring renewal by CAP. I further understand failure to meet membership eligibility criteria will result in automatic termination at any time.

I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by CAP Core Values, Ethics Policies, Constitution & Bylaws, Regulations and all applicable Federal, State, and Local Laws.

I understand only the Civil Air Patrol corporate officers are authorized to obligate funds, equipment, or services.

I understand the Civil Air Patrol is not liable for loss or damage to my personal property when operated for or by the Civil Air Patrol. I further understand that safety is critical for the protection of all members and protection of CAP resources. I will at all times follow safe practices and take an active role in safety for myself and others.

I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of the Civil Air Patrol.

I certify that all information on this application is presently correct and any false statement may be cause to deny membership. I understand I am obligated to notify the Civil Air Patrol if there are any changes pertaining to the information on the front of this form and further understand that failure to report such changes may be grounds for membership termination.

I fully understand that this Oath of Membership is an integral part of this application for senior membership in the Civil Air Patrol and that my signature on the form constitutes evidence of that understanding and agreement to comply with all contents of this oath of membership.

[Eclipse]

PPL is a pretty big hoop, my friend.  Then there's the check ride every year, and every new different aircraft (C172, C182, G1000, etc.). Every flight you make there are hoops to jump through before you crank the engine.  The system is designed to check you out and make sure you're not going to bend the aircraft or the people on board.

Hoops.

If you can find some place that will let you play with their $350k airplane for free and pay for the gas on top of it (including most times driving to the airport),
with less hoops, let me know.

A PPL for >me< is a hoop, since I don't have one, for people who would have one anyway, it's not a hoop, it just "is".  I have yet to
meet pilot maintaining their license >only< for CAP, so only those who actually do can tal about "hoops" (and I'd tell them not to).

[blackrain]

"$350k airplane for free and pay for the gas on top of it (including most times driving to the airport)"

Paid for by the US Taxpayer at least partially from an income tax established by the 16th Amendment to the Constitution

[Eclipse]

Paid for by the US Taxpayer at least partially from an income tax established by the 16th Amendment to the Constitution

Point?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ok-

I will use the same reasoning when one of my students defaces the wall on a school, or etches a message on the desk. Her father paid for the paint they just destroyed, his mom paid with her taxes for that desk he just etched with the keys, so I am not going to reprimand them...

Or,

Why not take that computer home that sits on the hallway of that courthouse? It is paid with my taxes! Let's see how many steps you can take... Let's see whether the judge will accept your It's mine, I paid for it with my taxes! 

[nomiddlemas]

Guys we are getting a little off topic dont you think?