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Author Topic: How CAP Policy is made  (Read 2520 times)
Cliff_Chambliss
Seasoned Member

Posts: 395

« on: December 27, 2012, 08:21:13 AM »

How CAP policy is made:...

 Start with a cage containing five apes. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, an ape will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the apes with cold water. After a while, another ape makes an attempt with the same result - all the apes are sprayed with cold water.
 Continue until, when another ape tries to climb the stairs, the other apes try to prevent it.

 Now, turn off the cold water.

 Now, remove one ape from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new ape sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other apes attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

 Next, remove another of the original five apes and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.

 Again, replace a third original ape with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four apes that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest ape.

 After replacing the fourth and fifth original apes, all the apes which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no ape ever again approaches the stairs. Why not?

 "Because that's the way it's always been around here."
 
And That's how CAP policy is made.
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11th Armored Cavalry Regiment
2d Armored Cavalry Regiment
3d Infantry Division
504th BattleField Surveillance Brigade

ARMY:  Because even the Marines need heros.    
CAVALRY:  If it were easy it would be called infantry.
a2capt
300,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,095
Unit: pǝʇɹǝʌuı

« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 12:09:59 PM »

I'm convinced it's mostly reactionary of a fly off the handle mentality with a lot of this stuff.

The whole 30 day "safety currency" thing is maniacal at best. It's become a silly dance. Nothing more. Planning an activity? Write an ORM assessment. Attendees coming to certain activities, write their own.

Has all this made a difference, or has it just become so mundane that people do whatever they need to get it "done" and complacency sets in?

Sign up for an activity that occurs 75 days from now, (with 'now' being the first week of the month) and they nag you that your safety currency is going to run out at the end of this month, do it now or you can't sign up.

It really has gotten that silly.

I have no issue with the time spent at the meetings on a monthly schedule, time spent prior to each activity going over the facility and issues about the site.  Those are after all, briefings by the regulation. Instead of hassling everyone just take care of it on site, as part of the regularly scheduled activity. Take attendance, someone enter the list online and move on.
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ZigZag911
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Posts: 1,973

« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 04:49:48 PM »

Don't you think this is needlessly insulting to the apes?!?
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2012, 05:09:58 PM »

I don't see the analogy.

The initial apes are all reacting to an actual threat, one which is then passed down to the new apes in an effort to
have them avoid the threat.  This is called "mentoring".

The analogy only works at all because apes, as far as we know, cannot articulate advanced concepts such as
"When you try for the banana, we all get hosed".

Or is it simply better that we let the FNGs walk into props on their own?
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

davedove
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 964
Unit: MER-MD-003

« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2012, 08:45:26 AM »

I don't see the analogy.

The initial apes are all reacting to an actual threat, one which is then passed down to the new apes in an effort to
have them avoid the threat.  This is called "mentoring".

The analogy only works at all because apes, as far as we know, cannot articulate advanced concepts such as
"When you try for the banana, we all get hosed".

Or is it simply better that we let the FNGs walk into props on their own?

Except in the situation, the threat had been removed and the apes were still reacting to a former threat that no longer existed.

The premise is that usually policies are put in place for very good reasons, but over time the situations change and yet the policies remain the same.
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David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
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coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,116

« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2012, 10:01:39 AM »

Conducting an ORM assessment during the planning stages of an activity or operation is the /perfect/ (and legitimate) application of good safety.

It is more like what we /should be/ doing.



30 day safety currency is...
silly.
I have been using the online modules for the last year, and they are, by in large, a waste of space.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 11:45:21 AM »

Except in the situation, the threat had been removed and the apes were still reacting to a former threat that no longer existed.

Where does it say that?  At no point does it say they would no longer get hosed.

They learned not to do the bad thing, and then they pass that knowledge down to the new guys.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

FlyTiger77
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 624

« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2012, 11:56:31 AM »

Except in the situation, the threat had been removed and the apes were still reacting to a former threat that no longer existed.
They learned not to do the bad thing, and then they pass that knowledge down to the new guys.

But, for an ape, is getting a banana not a GOOD thing? The fact that something external impeded reaching a goal does not, in and of itself, make the goal a bad thing, does it?
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JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2012, 12:02:30 PM »

Except in the situation, the threat had been removed and the apes were still reacting to a former threat that no longer existed.
They learned not to do the bad thing, and then they pass that knowledge down to the new guys.

But, for an ape, is getting a banana not a GOOD thing? The fact that something external impeded reaching a goal does not, in and of itself, make the goal a bad thing, does it?

Maybe its poison.

Does the fact that something external impeded the desire mean its automatically bad?  And again, the analogy only works because
the apes are not able to articulate the "bad".

Substitute "hand in fire" for "banana".
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

davedove
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 964
Unit: MER-MD-003

« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2012, 12:25:03 PM »

Except in the situation, the threat had been removed and the apes were still reacting to a former threat that no longer existed.

Where does it say that?  At no point does it say they would no longer get hosed.

They learned not to do the bad thing, and then they pass that knowledge down to the new guys.

Right here:


 Now, turn off the cold water.


We actually had this scenario in the MER RSC I attended.
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David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
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manfredvonrichthofen
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,881

« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2012, 12:35:05 PM »

Except in the situation, the threat had been removed and the apes were still reacting to a former threat that no longer existed.

Where does it say that?  At no point does it say they would no longer get hosed.

They learned not to do the bad thing, and then they pass that knowledge down to the new guys.
Give it another read, it does say the cold water was turned off. Implying that the threat is no longer there.

This is interesting, though I don't think it implies only to CAP. It seems to go for laws as well. In Indiana it is still law that you carry your rifle to church in fear of native American attacks. However the threat is no longer there.

But another can be said as well. Like the current weapon ban threat. If it passes, those who are afraid of guns can relax because they are illegal and you can't get them, right? But there are illegal ways of getting them, and no one seems to think about that. It only keeps the law abiding citizens from getting firearms to protect themselves with.

So, your looking at another case of the can't wins. Either way, the rules or laws are going to be weighted to one side or the other. Make it so asinine that no one wants to participate, or make it so easy that it doesn't matter.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2012, 01:32:48 PM »

On a practical note:

In my office I have a set of books containing all of the laws of the great State of California.  There are over 400 volumes, each two inches thick containing nothing but the current laws in effect set in fine print.  (No pictures, no advertisements, etc.)

Nobody has any idea how many laws there are -- but a conservative estimate is many tens of thousands, governing everything from how thick the concrete has to be in a burial vault in a public cemetary, to how to collect bids for public projects, and of course our penal laws that regulate behavior involving everything to spitting on the sidewalk to first degree capital murder.

And I just got an update book with the more than 300 new laws that go into effect next week.  And of course, I am talking about just the state laws here, and not the hundreds of thousands of laws and ordinances enacted at the local level by county boards, city councils, and the various other levels of government like library and transit districts or water conservation authorities.  And not to mention Federal laws.

My point is that is literally impossible to go back and check every law every year to see if it is still needed and/or of that particular law is the best way to deal with whatever problem it is supposed to solve.

That's how we wind up with these wierd-sounding "orphan laws" like the one about needing a weapon to walk to church.

But as a practical matter, it really doesn't matter.  When and if a problem develops -- like say a politically unpopular person being charged with "failure to have a weapon on his way to church" by an ambitious DA -- the legislature will change the law.  If it isn't a problem, they ignore it.

Sort of the "let sleeping dogs lie" school of legislation.

Ned Lee
Legal Hobbyist
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capmaj
Seasoned Member

Posts: 290

« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2012, 02:14:13 PM »

In the beginning was The Plan.
 And then came the assumptions.
 And the assumptions were without merit.
 And The Plan was without substance.
 
And darkness was upon the face of the workers.
 And they spoke among themselves, saying, “It is
 a crock of s*&t, and it stinketh.”
 
And the workers went unto their supervisors and said,
 “It is a pail of dung, and none may abide the odor thereof.”
 
And the supervisors went unto their managers, saying, “It is
 a container of excrement and it is very strong, such that
 none may abide by it.”
 
And the managers went unto their directors, saying,
 “It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong.”
 
And the directors went unto the VPs, saying unto them,
 “It promotes growth and it is very powerful.”
 
And the VPs went unto the Prez, saying unto him, “This plan
 will actively promote the growth and vigor of the company,
 with powerful effects.”
 
And the Prez looked upon the plan, and saw that it was good.
 And The Plan became Policy.
 This is how s&*t happens!
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coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,116

« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2012, 03:28:56 PM »

On a practical note:

My point is that is literally impossible to go back and check every law every year to see if it is still needed and/or of that particular law is the best way to deal with whatever problem it is supposed to solve.

That's how we wind up with these wierd-sounding "orphan laws" like the one about needing a weapon to walk to church.

If it isn't a problem, they ignore it.
Sort of the "let sleeping dogs lie" school of legislation.

Which is sort of why we should be careful about what we enact in the first place, meh...
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ol'fido
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,879
Unit: DOTCOTE.

« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 06:17:17 PM »

It's official , we're all going ape@@@@. :o
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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
Honor Guardsman
Recruit

Posts: 10
Unit: SER-FL-169

« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 05:45:06 PM »

This is the best explanation I have ever heard!!!
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Dracosbane
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2013, 11:55:45 PM »

Except in the situation, the threat had been removed and the apes were still reacting to a former threat that no longer existed.

Where does it say that?  At no point does it say they would no longer get hosed.

They learned not to do the bad thing, and then they pass that knowledge down to the new guys.
Give it another read, it does say the cold water was turned off. Implying that the threat is no longer there.

This is interesting, though I don't think it implies only to CAP. It seems to go for laws as well. In Indiana it is still law that you carry your rifle to church in fear of native American attacks. However the threat is no longer there.

But another can be said as well. Like the current weapon ban threat. If it passes, those who are afraid of guns can relax because they are illegal and you can't get them, right? But there are illegal ways of getting them, and no one seems to think about that. It only keeps the law abiding citizens from getting firearms to protect themselves with.

So, your looking at another case of the can't wins. Either way, the rules or laws are going to be weighted to one side or the other. Make it so asinine that no one wants to participate, or make it so easy that it doesn't matter.

Cite please?  Perhaps it was, but not any longer.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tall Tales  |  Topic: How CAP Policy is made
 


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