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10-4

Started by NateF, March 03, 2012, 01:45:31 AM

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NateF

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. I'm a CUL and have a lot of experience operating radios both in CAP and in the Army, personally I have no use for 10 codes, but here is what I'm thinking about:

10 codes have no place in CAP. With that said, I'm not really sure I would count 10-4 as a 10 code, properly speaking it has become a word of in it's own right. The approved list of prowords and brevity codes not withstanding, should 10-4 really be prohibited?

**Again, I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious as to what other think. Like I said, I have no use for 10 codes.
Nathan Fellows, Capt
MEWG DCP

SarDragon

"Roger", or "Roger that" seem to be pretty universal for that usage. Nothing to see here.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

wuzafuzz

Authorized prowords and plain English cover everything we need.  We have enough trouble with people using prowords improperly.  So putting 10 codes and similar affectations on the verboten list is a good idea.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

RiverAux

I have some sympathy for the point of view that 10-4 is so universally recognized that it might as well be considered plain English, but seeing as how we have a formal pro-word that we're supposed to be using in that specific instance, we probably should use that. 

Flying Pig

I hate 10 codes. 

Deputy:  Can you 10-21 the owner on the phone and ask them if they know where their car is?
Dispatch:  10-4 Ill look up the number
Deputy:  And if you could have the owner 10-21 my cell when you get a hold of them
Dispatch:10-4

Dispatch: I contacted the owner and they will be 10-21ing your cell in about 5 min.

GOOOOOOOD LOOOORD!!!!  Can we just say CALL!!!!!

lordmonar

If someone were to use a 10-4 or a 10-20 every now and then....it is not something we have to get our panties into a knot about.
Simply correct the operator and move on.
If you see one of your Comm guys pull out his list of 10 codes or Q codes and start teaches the new guys......now it the time to get upset.

Plain text is an aid to communication.  Say what you mean and go on.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ol'fido

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 03, 2012, 03:11:47 AM
I hate 10 codes. 

Deputy:  Can you 10-21 the owner on the phone and ask them if they know where their car is?
Dispatch:  10-4 Ill look up the number
Deputy:  And if you could have the owner 10-21 my cell when you get a hold of them
Dispatch:10-4

Dispatch: I contacted the owner and they will be 10-21ing your cell in about 5 min.

GOOOOOOOD LOOOORD!!!!  Can we just say CALL!!!!!

Agree with that. We had a new officer who used 10-74 to answer a  question on the radio at work. Had everybody reaching for their 10 code cheat sheets. Somebody fronted him off on the radio, "The NEXT time you need to say NO or NEGATIVE on the radio, just say No!!! or NEGATIVE!!! and not 10-74."

My biggest problem with talking on the radio anymore is that I work at a correctional facility so we use the police style 10 codes everyday. Want to get really laughed at? Just say "Over" after your done transmitting. Then I go home and deal with Amateur Radio terminology on the Ham Bands. To top it all off I deal with CAP comm procedures regularly too. So if the occasional 10-4 sneaks in on CC1, don't get all huffy about it.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

EMT-83

Exactly what does 10-4 mean?

Is it "message received", "will comply" or "yes, affirmative"?

It has no place in CAP communications.

ol'fido

Quote from: EMT-83 on March 03, 2012, 04:10:05 AM
Exactly what does 10-4 mean?

Is it "message received", "will comply" or "yes, affirmative"?

It has no place in CAP communications.
d. All of the above.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Eclipse

But 19-Paul says it all!

How about 10-roger?  (heard that, before, too).

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

Quote from: EMT-83 on March 03, 2012, 04:10:05 AM
Exactly what does 10-4 mean?

Is it "message received", "will comply" or "yes, affirmative"?

It has no place in CAP communications.
Chances are that someone is just as likely to get confused by what "roger" means.  In fact, "roger" could be considered a code word and is certainly not plain text any more than 10-4 is.   Why not use the term "understood"?  "understood" stands alone -- you don't need to define it using other words to get the point like you do with "roger". 

lordmonar

You are right.....understood is a good alternitive to roger.

And yes PROWORDS are in fact a type of code......the difference is that roger is one word. (two sylables) Understood is two words (three sylables).  One reasons for hte PROWORDS is to be easily understood and breif.

SAY AGAIN......instead of can you  repeat your last message.
SAY AGAIN ALL AFTER......vice What did you say after.....

The differnce between the PROWORD code and the 10 codes or Q codes is that it is plain text and need little or no explaination.

The 10 codes is like memrising the periodic chart......you can do it...but it you don't keep working on it you loose it.....and if you are new...you will always be behind the power curve.

Again it is not a world ender if you say Understood instead of Roger.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: CAPR 100-3


ProwordMeaning
ROGERI have received your last transmission satisfactorily

Looks pretty clear cut to me.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

RiverAux

Sure, for a code word.  But so is 10-4 if you know that code. 

ol'fido

Another problem with 10 codes is that various agencies have different versions of them just as there are actually a couple of different versions of Morse.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Major Lord

Have you ever heard a dispatcher talking to agencies using both sets of terms of art? Its a thing of beauty, and really hard to do. Pro-words versus 10 Codes, International Phonetic alphabet versus LE version ( Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo versus Adam, Boy, Charles, David,) At least LE can always understand our Pro words, but we don't have subtle ways of saying " I am here with a dead guy" (10-55 in some agencies) or "I am here with bad guys and kind of busy, leave me alone but send help my way" (10-6 in some agencies) CAP also lacks a subtle way of saying over things over the air like " Holy Smokes, shots fired, guns, bombs, fights, send the whole world") without resorting to plain language, which can be a bit awkward when for instance, you are standing next to a bunch of guys who would love to eat your liver, and  then go to your funeral so they can kill all your friends and mourners. Pro-words and peculiar pronunciation are relics of the ancient days of radio, where we needed to pronounce "four" as "Fo-wer" and "nine" as "niner" to aid intelligibility over ancient and noisy AM or SSB voice links, but both methods have their own pros and cons. I think we should at least have a universal CAP "duress" word, I suggest using the code "39-Dash-1" which always get everyone excited.

Major Lord
Roger, Roger; whats your vector Victor?
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RRLE

NIMS Alert December 19, 2006.

NIMS AND USE OF PLAIN LANGUAGE

extracts.

QuoteIt is important that responders and incident managers use common terminology. There simply is little or no room for misunderstanding in an emergency situation.

The use of plain language in emergency response is matter of public safety, especially the safety of first responders and those affected by the incident. It is critical that all local responders, as well as those coming into the impacted area from other jurisdictions and other states as well as the federal government, know and utilize commonly established operational structures, terminology, policies and procedures. This is what NIMS and the Incident Command System (ICS) are all about—achieving interoperability across agencies, jurisdictions and disciplines.

QuoteIt is required that plain language be used for multi-agency, multi-jurisdiction and multi-discipline events, such as major disasters and exercises. Beginning FY 2006, federal preparedness grant funding is contingent on the use of plain language in incidents requiring assistance from responders from other agencies, jurisdictions, and functional disciplines.

QuoteThe FY 2006 NIMS Implementation requirement to use plain language does not abolish the use of 10-codes in everyday department communications. Accordingly, the use of 10-codes in daily operations will not result in the loss of federal preparedness funds.

So if you local PD or FD wants to use 10 codes within its own comms it can. But it cannot if the comms goes outside the department. So 6 years after the above, the use 0f 10-4 or any other 10 code should be banned from CAP use.

BTW and FWIW - since the death of CB back in the 70s, I think the knowledge of 10 codes within the general population is extremely limited. Too often comm geeks assume that what they know, everyone knows. In as disaster, the person on the other end of the communication may barely know how to use a radio, no less be fluent in 10, Q or whatever other codes you know.

ol'fido

 Most people like the news media and amateur radio operators who listen to a lot of radio traffic can figure out most codes pretty readily. Even if they don't, they can figure out something is going on from the amount of "chatter" just like the NSA does with Al Quaida.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Major Lord on March 03, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Have you ever heard a dispatcher talking to agencies using both sets of terms of art? Its a thing of beauty, and really hard to do. Pro-words versus 10 Codes, International Phonetic alphabet versus LE version ( Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo versus Adam, Boy, Charles, David,) At least LE can always understand our Pro words, but we don't have subtle ways of saying " I am here with a dead guy" (10-55 in some agencies) or "I am here with bad guys and kind of busy, leave me alone but send help my way" (10-6 in some agencies) CAP also lacks a subtle way of saying over things over the air like " Holy Smokes, shots fired, guns, bombs, fights, send the whole world") without resorting to plain language, which can be a bit awkward when for instance, you are standing next to a bunch of guys who would love to eat your liver, and  then go to your funeral so they can kill all your friends and mourners. Pro-words and peculiar pronunciation are relics of the ancient days of radio, where we needed to pronounce "four" as "Fo-wer" and "nine" as "niner" to aid intelligibility over ancient and noisy AM or SSB voice links, but both methods have their own pros and cons. I think we should at least have a universal CAP "duress" word, I suggest using the code "39-Dash-1" which always get everyone excited.

Major Lord
Roger, Roger; whats your vector Victor?

"Mission base this is Ground Team Alpha - Urgent phone call inbound."

JeffDG

The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!

davidsinn

Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 04:37:12 PM
The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!

Quote
CAPR100-3
2-11. Prohibited Operating Practices. The following prohibited operating practices apply to operation of all CAP stations:
a. Identifying operators by name over the air.
d. Use of given names or nicknames in place of authorized call signs.

What that means to me is you can't say "Callsign Headcap 1 is General Big-guy" over the radio or use the following exchange "Hey dork, this is birdog, could you..."

What is allowed IMO, is "Redfire 123 this is Redfire 456, could you send Lts Jones, Smith and Donut over to air branch?"
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

JeffDG

Quote from: davidsinn on March 03, 2012, 05:00:13 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 04:37:12 PM
The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!

Quote
CAPR100-3
2-11. Prohibited Operating Practices. The following prohibited operating practices apply to operation of all CAP stations:
a. Identifying operators by name over the air.
d. Use of given names or nicknames in place of authorized call signs.

What that means to me is you can't say "Callsign Headcap 1 is General Big-guy" over the radio or use the following exchange "Hey dork, this is birdog, could you..."

What is allowed IMO, is "Redfire 123 this is Redfire 456, could you send Lts Jones, Smith and Donut over to air branch?"
Well, hell...that's much easier!

Thanks!!

davidsinn

Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 05:32:10 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on March 03, 2012, 05:00:13 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2012, 04:37:12 PM
The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!

Quote
CAPR100-3
2-11. Prohibited Operating Practices. The following prohibited operating practices apply to operation of all CAP stations:
a. Identifying operators by name over the air.
d. Use of given names or nicknames in place of authorized call signs.

What that means to me is you can't say "Callsign Headcap 1 is General Big-guy" over the radio or use the following exchange "Hey dork, this is birdog, could you..."

What is allowed IMO, is "Redfire 123 this is Redfire 456, could you send Lts Jones, Smith and Donut over to air branch?"
Well, hell...that's much easier!

Thanks!!

I'm an FLS and when not moving aluminium around the ramp I assist the Air Boss however I can which usually includes radio work. I'm also a GTL, MRO and working on aircrew. I have a lot of practice with radios... ;D
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn

Flying Pig

In one agency I worked for 10-36 meant "What time is it?"

In the one I am with now it means "The person your checking has a felony warrant"

No confusion there! >:D

PHall

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 03, 2012, 06:43:52 PM
In one agency I worked for 10-36 meant "What time is it?"

In the one I am with now it means "The person your checking has a felony warrant"

No confusion there! >:D

Rob, don't forget CHP's 11 codes!

RADIOMAN015

#25
Quote from: NateF on March 03, 2012, 01:45:31 AM
I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. I'm a CUL and have a lot of experience operating radios both in CAP and in the Army, personally I have no use for 10 codes, but here is what I'm thinking about:

10 codes have no place in CAP. With that said, I'm not really sure I would count 10-4 as a 10 code, properly speaking it has become a word of in it's own right. The approved list of prowords and brevity codes not withstanding, should 10-4 really be prohibited?

**Again, I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious as to what other think. Like I said, I have no use for 10 codes.
I would say 10-4 good buddy ;)

HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.  The issue is if you use too many code words than you risk the chance on total confusion, which is highly probable in CAP  :-[

On the HF/ALE side we've done some experimenting with pre developed message formats, so that lets say  TANGO ONE format, would have a, b, c, d and each would mean something e.g.  a. air crews available, b. ground teams available, c. aircraft available, d. ground vehicles available.  This makes it easy to send a short text message so it would be "T1a5b3c3d4".   You could also have a list of one use  authentication codes for use at the end of the message if you were concerned about verification of legitimate traffic.
RM       

Flying Pig

Holy Toledo....

Listening to those guys on the radio is like sitting in Algebra class!

Spaceman3750

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 03, 2012, 08:11:20 PM
HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.     

Not if you care about not violating 100-3.

Quotea. Codes and Ciphers.  Locally designed codes or adaptation of official codes, however
well intentioned, will not deceive a cryptanalyst; only officially authorized codes are to be used.
It has become a practice within CAP to assign "code words" to various mission events, in the
belief that doing so will conceal these events from an undesired listener.  This practice is seldom
effective, violates the principles of the Incident Command System and is therefore not
authorized.

The "officially authorized codes" are the prowords listed in Attachment 1.

RADIOMAN015

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 03, 2012, 08:14:42 PM
Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 03, 2012, 08:11:20 PM
HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.     

Not if you care about not violating 100-3.

Quotea. Codes and Ciphers.  Locally designed codes or adaptation of official codes, however
well intentioned, will not deceive a cryptanalyst; only officially authorized codes are to be used.
It has become a practice within CAP to assign "code words" to various mission events, in the
belief that doing so will conceal these events from an undesired listener.  This practice is seldom
effective, violates the principles of the Incident Command System and is therefore not
authorized.

The "officially authorized codes" are the prowords listed in Attachment 1.
National HQ right now is working on short text message formats for ALE.  We conducted a HF/ALE exercise and as the project officer I felt we might as well try it to see how well it works with the short text messaging option (especially if Link Quality Analysis % was low).  All stations participating had the list of the formats and what we would be transmitting.  Seemed to work fine for us, cuts down on the typing required.  There was no intention for this to be a security/cipher code but more of an abbreviated method of information transmission.  Surely IF a plan only has one time use of particular message formats, than there is a bit of COMSEC, but the primary reason again is to limit the amount of typing.
RM

   

lordmonar

In my day job....working with USAF RPA's....we use a program called MIRC chat.  It is basically a message forum room that they use in the AOR.

There is an unwritten code that has developed over time to speed up communication.

RTB-return to base
C-Copy
TY-Thank you

and that sort of stuff.

In voice comm...we can't get away from it....it just happens.
The point being....what ever the code you end up using it should be easy to teach and easy to understand.
The PROWORDS that we use come directly from the military....so they are pretty much universal.  Even if you were a brand spanking new-be who has never seen or heard anyone working a radio before it does not take long for you to learn what we use.

The 10 codes however.....take much too long to learn and as we see here they often have different meanings between agencies.

Now....on the HF/ALE system where everything is text based....a simple code used to improve communications would not be out of the question.

Keep it simple and make it easy to learn.....and I got no problem.
If you got to go out and learn what the codes for 200+ possible messages are....then no....stick to plain text message.

When I was working USAF satellite comms...we would transmit out station status to the satellite controlers every 3-4 hours.  We used a short hand/standard format to transmit this data.

Station#/Power/EBno/RSL/Weather.

So instead of typeing This is station 123 our power is 10 watts, Ebn0 is 10 to the -20, our received signal strenth is 10 and out weather is broken clouds.

We would send:
123/10/20/10/bkn

The only codes you had to learn were the abbreviaitons for weather.
CLR=Clear
BKN=Broken Clouds
RAI=Rain
SNO=Snow
OVC=Overcast
WIN=Winds

saved a lot of typing on a really stuipd key bad.

So...if we have a lot of standard reports sent by text....I don't see a problem with a short hand report format.


PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Spaceman3750

IRC - I haven't heard of anyone using that in awhile ;D.

ol'fido

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on March 03, 2012, 08:11:20 PM
Quote from: NateF on March 03, 2012, 01:45:31 AM
I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. I'm a CUL and have a lot of experience operating radios both in CAP and in the Army, personally I have no use for 10 codes, but here is what I'm thinking about:

10 codes have no place in CAP. With that said, I'm not really sure I would count 10-4 as a 10 code, properly speaking it has become a word of in it's own right. The approved list of prowords and brevity codes not withstanding, should 10-4 really be prohibited?

**Again, I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious as to what other think. Like I said, I have no use for 10 codes.

I would say 10-4 good buddy ;)


HOWEVER, CAP in a CAP only mission can develop any code words they want and place it in the communications annex of a mission plan and provide at the mission briefing.  The issue is if you use too many code words than you risk the chance on total confusion, which is highly probable in CAP  :-[

On the HF/ALE side we've done some experimenting with pre developed message formats, so that lets say  TANGO ONE format, would have a, b, c, d and each would mean something e.g.  a. air crews available, b. ground teams available, c. aircraft available, d. ground vehicles available.  This makes it easy to send a short text message so it would be "T1a5b3c3d4".   You could also have a list of one use  authentication codes for use at the end of the message if you were concerned about verification of legitimate traffic.
RM     
I wouldn't use that "good buddy" thing much. It's taken on a whole new meaning these days.

The hardest thing to teach to new communicators is how to pick up the mike and talk without hemming, hawing, and trying to use what they think is "radio speak"(the very stilted and formal language you hear on some radio nets). Just trying to get them to speak in everyday conversational English with the proper prowords where necessary is what we should shoot for.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

RRLE

APCO Position Statement Plain Speech in Public Safety Communications

extracts:

QuoteDue to a number of important factors, APCO International renews its assertion that plain speech communications over public safety radio systems is preferred over the traditional 10-Codes and dispatch signals used by a majority of law enforcement agencies across the country. It is recognized that valid concerns about officer safety or confidential information being jeopardized should be resolved between the local agency(s) and the serving public safety communications center.

Addressing specific codes:

QuoteAPCO International encourages the use of sensible plain speech alternatives for common 10-Codes. For example:

10-4 - copy or acknowledge or understood
10-20 - my location is
10-28 - registration check - reg. check


QuoteAPCO International strongly supports the autonomy of local, county, state and other law enforcement agencies to make operational decisions. However, NIMS compliance is important and this fundamental communication procedure will have a dramatic affect on interoperability across the nation. APCO International supports the goal of NIMS of good faith efforts at all levels nationwide to move to plain speech for all emergency operations

QuoteIn one agency I worked for 10-36 meant "What time is it?"

In the one I am with now it means "The person your checking has a felony warrant"

I googled APCO 10 codes. At least 6 sites claimed to be the official APCO 10-codes, although the APCO site appears not to list them anymore. 2 codes got 2 votes each for what the code for getting the correct time was but 10-36 had the most votes. The codes were: 10-34 (listed in some lists as the code for a riot), 10-35 (listed by some as the code for major crime alert) and 10-36 (listed by some as the code for confidential information).

The 'correct' code for ETA also is split over at least 2 codes: 10-26 and 10-77.

And the beat goes on.

SARDOC

To the OP.  10-4 is commonly understood.  However, Not All Jurisdictions used the 10-4 to mean Acknowledged or understood.  Some Agencies has used it to mean something else.  Not many but more than one.  That is why in order to be NIMS compliant those codes have gone away.

a2capt

All this makes me think of.. a little C.W. McCall...

Some clown insists on a 10-36 This here's what you give 'em:

"Four, good buddy, I made me a study an' I figger it's the dark a' the moon, son
It's half-past spring an' a quarter ta fall  an' the big hand's a-settin' on noon, son
Now if the fish don't bite and the almanac's right and the groundhog sees his shadow
A 10-36 goes tick-tock-tick."

..and that's what I call ratchetjaw!

Gotta git ya a base, out there at yer place with a forty-foot pole on the chimney
With a thousand watts in yer flowerpots and a ree-mote line in the biffy
If ya feel a twitch when ya throw the switch ya gonna dim all the lights in Wichita
Gonna send out a wave ta make the government rave!

And this here's whatcha tell 'em all:

"Yeah, four, good buddy, yer comin' in cruddy but yer walkin' right through my wall, boy
Yer carrier's cool, you makin' me drool you were definitely battin' my ball, boy
You hittin' me round about fifteen pound you cut me up like a bandsaw
But what the heck, it's just a radio check."

And that there's how to ratchetjaw

There's a Song for Everything, and I know too many of them.