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10-4

Started by NateF, March 03, 2012, 01:45:31 AM

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NateF

I'm not trying to open a can of worms here. I'm a CUL and have a lot of experience operating radios both in CAP and in the Army, personally I have no use for 10 codes, but here is what I'm thinking about:

10 codes have no place in CAP. With that said, I'm not really sure I would count 10-4 as a 10 code, properly speaking it has become a word of in it's own right. The approved list of prowords and brevity codes not withstanding, should 10-4 really be prohibited?

**Again, I'm not suggesting anything here, I'm just curious as to what other think. Like I said, I have no use for 10 codes.
Nathan Fellows, Capt
MEWG DCP

SarDragon

"Roger", or "Roger that" seem to be pretty universal for that usage. Nothing to see here.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

wuzafuzz

Authorized prowords and plain English cover everything we need.  We have enough trouble with people using prowords improperly.  So putting 10 codes and similar affectations on the verboten list is a good idea.
"You can't stop the signal, Mal."

RiverAux

I have some sympathy for the point of view that 10-4 is so universally recognized that it might as well be considered plain English, but seeing as how we have a formal pro-word that we're supposed to be using in that specific instance, we probably should use that. 

Flying Pig

I hate 10 codes. 

Deputy:  Can you 10-21 the owner on the phone and ask them if they know where their car is?
Dispatch:  10-4 Ill look up the number
Deputy:  And if you could have the owner 10-21 my cell when you get a hold of them
Dispatch:10-4

Dispatch: I contacted the owner and they will be 10-21ing your cell in about 5 min.

GOOOOOOOD LOOOORD!!!!  Can we just say CALL!!!!!

lordmonar

If someone were to use a 10-4 or a 10-20 every now and then....it is not something we have to get our panties into a knot about.
Simply correct the operator and move on.
If you see one of your Comm guys pull out his list of 10 codes or Q codes and start teaches the new guys......now it the time to get upset.

Plain text is an aid to communication.  Say what you mean and go on.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ol'fido

Quote from: Flying Pig on March 03, 2012, 03:11:47 AM
I hate 10 codes. 

Deputy:  Can you 10-21 the owner on the phone and ask them if they know where their car is?
Dispatch:  10-4 Ill look up the number
Deputy:  And if you could have the owner 10-21 my cell when you get a hold of them
Dispatch:10-4

Dispatch: I contacted the owner and they will be 10-21ing your cell in about 5 min.

GOOOOOOOD LOOOORD!!!!  Can we just say CALL!!!!!

Agree with that. We had a new officer who used 10-74 to answer a  question on the radio at work. Had everybody reaching for their 10 code cheat sheets. Somebody fronted him off on the radio, "The NEXT time you need to say NO or NEGATIVE on the radio, just say No!!! or NEGATIVE!!! and not 10-74."

My biggest problem with talking on the radio anymore is that I work at a correctional facility so we use the police style 10 codes everyday. Want to get really laughed at? Just say "Over" after your done transmitting. Then I go home and deal with Amateur Radio terminology on the Ham Bands. To top it all off I deal with CAP comm procedures regularly too. So if the occasional 10-4 sneaks in on CC1, don't get all huffy about it.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

EMT-83

Exactly what does 10-4 mean?

Is it "message received", "will comply" or "yes, affirmative"?

It has no place in CAP communications.

ol'fido

Quote from: EMT-83 on March 03, 2012, 04:10:05 AM
Exactly what does 10-4 mean?

Is it "message received", "will comply" or "yes, affirmative"?

It has no place in CAP communications.
d. All of the above.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Eclipse

But 19-Paul says it all!

How about 10-roger?  (heard that, before, too).

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

Quote from: EMT-83 on March 03, 2012, 04:10:05 AM
Exactly what does 10-4 mean?

Is it "message received", "will comply" or "yes, affirmative"?

It has no place in CAP communications.
Chances are that someone is just as likely to get confused by what "roger" means.  In fact, "roger" could be considered a code word and is certainly not plain text any more than 10-4 is.   Why not use the term "understood"?  "understood" stands alone -- you don't need to define it using other words to get the point like you do with "roger". 

lordmonar

You are right.....understood is a good alternitive to roger.

And yes PROWORDS are in fact a type of code......the difference is that roger is one word. (two sylables) Understood is two words (three sylables).  One reasons for hte PROWORDS is to be easily understood and breif.

SAY AGAIN......instead of can you  repeat your last message.
SAY AGAIN ALL AFTER......vice What did you say after.....

The differnce between the PROWORD code and the 10 codes or Q codes is that it is plain text and need little or no explaination.

The 10 codes is like memrising the periodic chart......you can do it...but it you don't keep working on it you loose it.....and if you are new...you will always be behind the power curve.

Again it is not a world ender if you say Understood instead of Roger.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: CAPR 100-3


ProwordMeaning
ROGERI have received your last transmission satisfactorily

Looks pretty clear cut to me.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

RiverAux

Sure, for a code word.  But so is 10-4 if you know that code. 

ol'fido

Another problem with 10 codes is that various agencies have different versions of them just as there are actually a couple of different versions of Morse.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Major Lord

Have you ever heard a dispatcher talking to agencies using both sets of terms of art? Its a thing of beauty, and really hard to do. Pro-words versus 10 Codes, International Phonetic alphabet versus LE version ( Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo versus Adam, Boy, Charles, David,) At least LE can always understand our Pro words, but we don't have subtle ways of saying " I am here with a dead guy" (10-55 in some agencies) or "I am here with bad guys and kind of busy, leave me alone but send help my way" (10-6 in some agencies) CAP also lacks a subtle way of saying over things over the air like " Holy Smokes, shots fired, guns, bombs, fights, send the whole world") without resorting to plain language, which can be a bit awkward when for instance, you are standing next to a bunch of guys who would love to eat your liver, and  then go to your funeral so they can kill all your friends and mourners. Pro-words and peculiar pronunciation are relics of the ancient days of radio, where we needed to pronounce "four" as "Fo-wer" and "nine" as "niner" to aid intelligibility over ancient and noisy AM or SSB voice links, but both methods have their own pros and cons. I think we should at least have a universal CAP "duress" word, I suggest using the code "39-Dash-1" which always get everyone excited.

Major Lord
Roger, Roger; whats your vector Victor?
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

RRLE

NIMS Alert December 19, 2006.

NIMS AND USE OF PLAIN LANGUAGE

extracts.

QuoteIt is important that responders and incident managers use common terminology. There simply is little or no room for misunderstanding in an emergency situation.

The use of plain language in emergency response is matter of public safety, especially the safety of first responders and those affected by the incident. It is critical that all local responders, as well as those coming into the impacted area from other jurisdictions and other states as well as the federal government, know and utilize commonly established operational structures, terminology, policies and procedures. This is what NIMS and the Incident Command System (ICS) are all about—achieving interoperability across agencies, jurisdictions and disciplines.

QuoteIt is required that plain language be used for multi-agency, multi-jurisdiction and multi-discipline events, such as major disasters and exercises. Beginning FY 2006, federal preparedness grant funding is contingent on the use of plain language in incidents requiring assistance from responders from other agencies, jurisdictions, and functional disciplines.

QuoteThe FY 2006 NIMS Implementation requirement to use plain language does not abolish the use of 10-codes in everyday department communications. Accordingly, the use of 10-codes in daily operations will not result in the loss of federal preparedness funds.

So if you local PD or FD wants to use 10 codes within its own comms it can. But it cannot if the comms goes outside the department. So 6 years after the above, the use 0f 10-4 or any other 10 code should be banned from CAP use.

BTW and FWIW - since the death of CB back in the 70s, I think the knowledge of 10 codes within the general population is extremely limited. Too often comm geeks assume that what they know, everyone knows. In as disaster, the person on the other end of the communication may barely know how to use a radio, no less be fluent in 10, Q or whatever other codes you know.

ol'fido

 Most people like the news media and amateur radio operators who listen to a lot of radio traffic can figure out most codes pretty readily. Even if they don't, they can figure out something is going on from the amount of "chatter" just like the NSA does with Al Quaida.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

Spaceman3750

Quote from: Major Lord on March 03, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Have you ever heard a dispatcher talking to agencies using both sets of terms of art? Its a thing of beauty, and really hard to do. Pro-words versus 10 Codes, International Phonetic alphabet versus LE version ( Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo versus Adam, Boy, Charles, David,) At least LE can always understand our Pro words, but we don't have subtle ways of saying " I am here with a dead guy" (10-55 in some agencies) or "I am here with bad guys and kind of busy, leave me alone but send help my way" (10-6 in some agencies) CAP also lacks a subtle way of saying over things over the air like " Holy Smokes, shots fired, guns, bombs, fights, send the whole world") without resorting to plain language, which can be a bit awkward when for instance, you are standing next to a bunch of guys who would love to eat your liver, and  then go to your funeral so they can kill all your friends and mourners. Pro-words and peculiar pronunciation are relics of the ancient days of radio, where we needed to pronounce "four" as "Fo-wer" and "nine" as "niner" to aid intelligibility over ancient and noisy AM or SSB voice links, but both methods have their own pros and cons. I think we should at least have a universal CAP "duress" word, I suggest using the code "39-Dash-1" which always get everyone excited.

Major Lord
Roger, Roger; whats your vector Victor?

"Mission base this is Ground Team Alpha - Urgent phone call inbound."

JeffDG

The comm rule that always gets me is use of names...

If I have someone corralling pilots by the coffee-pot, and as the AOBD, I need a crew...it's difficult to communicate who that crew is back to me without using names!