Should CAP Chaplains be able to recruit CAP members to their faith?

[AngelWings]

IMHO, I expect a chaplain to be seeking to invite people to practice their faith, within reason. If I were approached by a chaplain who asked me to attend a local church meeting or whatever you call it, I'd think nothing of it. If I were going through a rough time and a chaplain kept actively approaching me with lectures about faith and kept trying to invite me to their religon, after I have no, I'd use my freedom of speech to tell them to shove their freedom of religon in a place where the sun don't shine (of course in a very respectful manner as not to offend anyone and deviate from CAP and USAF core values and my personal values). In life, there is appropiate times to do things. If at a moral leadership meeting your chaplain sees you are somewhat interested in faith, than I see no problem with asking. Has a christian, I'd be offended if I saw someone who is supposed to have a high place in my faith being disrepectful to ANYONE when it comes towards their beliefs, and I strongly believe that faith should not be forced down someones throat, rather taken in by the person.

[Eclipse]

CAP no longer holds "Moral Leadership" sessions - we need to get this term out of our lexicon.

[Chappie]

I have worked with at least one Chaplain who "got it", who is an asset to CAP in the highest meaning of that term.  I have also worked with more than one who...didn't.  Since clergy can serve CAP just as ably without a specific appointment as a Chaplain, what is the need for this?

I would respectfully disagree with the observation that "Since clergy can serve CAP just as ably without a specific appointment as a Chaplain, what is the need for this?"   Church has its culture and CAP has its culture.  Church has its structure and CAP has its structure.  One of the concerns that this thread raised (and it is an issue that Wing and Region Chaplains deal with on occasion) is how a chaplain is to function within CAP.  If one is having a problem with a CAP Chaplain -- one who is a member and has received training (which by the way, the chaplain corps has been making huge strives in this area since 2007 -- Chaplains are now required to take SLS and CLC and are promoted the same as CAP Senior Members...no longer TIG), imagine what it would be like if a local pastor/priest/rabbi/iman shows up to a local squadron to offer assistance.  Think there are problems/concerns/issues now??   I came into CAP from a local church setting (but fortunately had some LE Chaplain experience) and I can attest that serving in CAP demands a knowledge of the program that entails participation in CAP events/activities/missions/Senior Member Professional Development Training Program.  I believe in the following corollary that states: "All chaplains should be pastors...but not all pastors can be chaplains".   The term "pastor" there is used in the broad sense of being able to provide care for others.  Unfortunately some pastors can't see beyond the four walls of their local church/denomination and be able to serve the needs of CAP members as chaplains.  We are fortunate to have those who do "get it" and provide excellent service to our members.  I have seen a turn in recent years of newer chaplains who are "getting it" as they participate in the program.   Sadly, there are are still some are content to have earned their grade by simply breathing for a certain number of years and still do not have a clue about the organization because of their limited participation.  The appointment as a Chaplain within the organization also ensures credibility to person (academic work/ecclesiastical endorsement -- same DoD requirements as active/reserve/guard chaplains -- CAP does grant a waiver of the Master's degree provided there is 5 years of pastoral ministry) and accountability.  Chaplains do serve as assigned members of the Commander's staff at all levels of CAP.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclispe: "The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged".


Was it stated or established that the chaplain" was not versed or trained" in "proper CISM technique(s)"? And as I read it, chaplains are allowed to "say" (provide) information that is "secular in nature".

[Eclipse]

Eclispe: "The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged".

Was it stated or established that the chaplain" was not versed or trained" in "proper CISM technique(s)"? And as I read it, chaplains are allowed to "say" (provide) information that is "secular in nature".

If he acted as indicated, he either was not trained, or ignored his training for both CISM and Chaplain, pick one.

[Jerry Jacobs]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

[Hardshell Clam]

Eclispe: "The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged".

Was it stated or established that the chaplain" was not versed or trained" in "proper CISM technique(s)"? And as I read it, chaplains are allowed to "say" (provide) information that is "secular in nature".

If he acted as indicated, he either was not trained, or ignored his training for both CISM and Chaplain, pick one.

I pick: As we only have one side of the story, we do not have enough information to say what the chaplain should have done.

[Chappie]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

In addition, Chaplains have the privilege of clergy-penitent confidentiality.

[Hardshell Clam]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

In addition, Chaplains have the privilege of clergy-penitent confidentiality.

As allowed under the law, the sure do.

[Eclipse]

I pick: As we only have one side of the story, we do not have enough information to say what the chaplain should have done.

Not an option.  We all know exactly what he should have done, whether the story is true, or just an example.

[Eclipse]

As allowed under the law, the sure do.

We're not talking about what a member of clergy might do outside CAP.  Internal to the organization there is no assumption of confidentiality in regards to
allegations of abuse or violation of regulations.

Per CAPR 265-1
a. Chaplains and CDIs will comply with the reporting requirements of CAPR 52-10, CAP Cadet Protection Policy, paragraph 1. 

[Hardshell Clam]

I pick: As we only have one side of the story, we do not have enough information to say what the chaplain should have done.

Not an option.  We all know exactly what he should have done, whether the story is true, or just an example.

Sorry, we all do not know and I venture to say certainly no average lay person or unit commander is well enough informed to make that determination.  We as lay persons can only offer our opinions.

[Hardshell Clam]

As allowed under the law, the sure do.

We're not talking about what a member of clergy might do outside CAP.  Internal to the organization there is no assumption of confidentiality in regards to
allegations of abuse or violation of regulations.

Per CAPR 265-1
a. Chaplains and CDIs will comply with the reporting requirements of CAPR 52-10, CAP Cadet Protection Policy, paragraph 1. 

That is a given, as I understand it, outside clergy are required under state laws to do the same.

[AngelWings]

This is definately a two sided thing where there is no true resolution, mainly because we are aiming away from talking about the original subject. How about I skip to how this is going to end to save everyones time. There is going to be two sides (has expected from the OP's question did include two sides), a I think it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP, and the no, it is not ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP. The arguement for the it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings is based on (if I am not misinterpreting posts in favor of it) how it second nature for a chaplain due to it being second nature. The opposing side is saying that it is not ok due to their position being only to serve the religous needs of the people they are embedded with (lack of better words) and that they are in a position that can unfairly pursuade people. There is no black or white answer to the matter, and a fair answer is not going to be made because neither side is willing to compromise. If you disagree with what I just wrote, keep argueing. We just are heading into the bottomless pit known to CAPTalkinians to be unrecoverable from if not caught early enough.

[lordmonar]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

In the military we dont have on-call "non-secular counselors". I cant just walk into a counselors office and talk about whatever I need to talk about. That's the purpose of having a chaplain attached to a military unit.

Well....in the USAF they have a Life Skills Center (read Mental Health) that have on call counselors...and sick call hours.

[Hardshell Clam]

This is definately a two sided thing where there is no true resolution, mainly because we are aiming away from talking about the original subject. How about I skip to how this is going to end to save everyones time. There is going to be two sides (has expected from the OP's question did include two sides), a I think it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP, and the no, it is not ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings in CAP. The arguement for the it is ok for chaplains to invite people to their place of worship/religous meetings is based on (if I am not misinterpreting posts in favor of it) how it second nature for a chaplain due to it being second nature. The opposing side is saying that it is not ok due to their position being only to serve the religous needs of the people they are embedded with (lack of better words) and that they are in a position that can unfairly pursuade people. There is no black or white answer to the matter, and a fair answer is not going to be made because neither side is willing to compromise. If you disagree with what I just wrote, keep argueing. We just are heading into the bottomless pit known to CAPTalkinians to be unrecoverable from if not caught early enough.

Indeed, and I stand by my previous statement: As long as our chaplains stay on the correct side of the regulations, they are fine.

[Ed Bos]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

The problem is -- as I see it -- not one of a CAP member/member of the military, ect. approaching the chaplain and inquiring/seeking...but where the chaplain uses a setting such as a squadron meeting/group formation, etc. as a place to impose his/her beliefs.  A chaplain can and does perform a chapel service where that is permitted...but Character Development sessions, squadron meetings, etc aren't to be the forum for evangelizing/proselytizing.   When I served as an encampment chaplain (or where religious services needed to be offered on the week-ends), I always found the places of worship for other faith groups, published the service times and provided transportation.

+1

[RiverAux]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

Unfortunately, under current CAP regulation it was perfectly ok for the Chaplain  to make such an effort to convert someone not currently aligned with another faith.  So, the Chaplain was doing what was legal.

Obviously, I don't think it should be. 

[Chappie]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

Unfortunately, under current CAP regulation it was perfectly ok for the Chaplain  to make such an effort to convert someone not currently aligned with another faith.  So, the Chaplain was doing what was legal.

Obviously, I don't think it should be.

As a Chaplain, to ask a question regarding one's faith is an useful way to get an idea of the person's background/experience, etc in order that you can find common ground...to quote a line from the "Christmas Story": "Some men are Baptists, others Catholics; my father was an Oldsmobile man."   It's good to know that sometimes you have an "Oldsmobile" person that you are conversing with.   But once that is established to begin pushing your viewpoint or religious preference or seeking to convert someone is a bit overline.  They are coming to seek assistance.   I seek to assist not persuade.  But that is my opinion and the way I operate. 

[RiverAux]

As you know, Chaplains are expected to ask about members' faiths (though members are not obligated to respond) and I don't consider that proselytizing.