Should CAP Chaplains be able to recruit CAP members to their faith?

[DBlair]

No.

They are there to serve the religious needs of those in their AOR, regardless of faith, not evangelize.

+1

[Hardshell Clam]

The basic nature of a chaplains mission is to "recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

That's a gross misunderstanding of what a chaplain's role is.

A chaplain's mission is to see to the spiritual and emotional needs of their groups' personnel. Included in this number would be an atheist who is grieving the loss of a spouse. The chaplain is there to provide counsel and guidance, not to offer them solace via an invitation to their church.

I disagree, but as long as the chaplains stay on the right side of the regulations, They are in the right as it were.

[Ed Bos]

I disagree, but as long as the chaplains stay on the right side of the regulations, They are in the right as it were.

Respectfully, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not offering an opinion, I'm stating a fact. This isn't an "interpretation" of the regulation.

According to the pertinent regulation:

2. Mission of the CAP Chaplain Corps.
a. The free exercise of religion is a constitutional right of all US citizens. Civil Air Patrol provides opportunities for CAP members to exercise this right through the Chaplain Corps and by allocating required resources to accomplish the Chaplain Corps mission.
b. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps promotes moral leadership, spiritual care, and character development throughout the CAP senior member and cadet programs.
c. Responding to emergencies is a critical aspect of the CAP Chaplain Corps mission. As professional clergy, CAP chaplains prepare to respond to Civil Air Patrol, USAF, and community emergencies, such as disasters, aircraft accidents, or acts of terrorism.

Not of the chaplain Corps' stated mission includes them having to

"recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

Because you are an Inspector General, I think it's very important that you understand this point. Chaplain's must carry out their duties without preaching, without recruiting, without pressure, and with respect for the spiritual decisions of those they minister to.

[Hardshell Clam]

I disagree, but as long as the chaplains stay on the right side of the regulations, They are in the right as it were.

Respectfully, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not offering an opinion, I'm stating a fact. This isn't an "interpretation" of the regulation.

According to the pertinent regulation:

2. Mission of the CAP Chaplain Corps.
a. The free exercise of religion is a constitutional right of all US citizens. Civil Air Patrol provides opportunities for CAP members to exercise this right through the Chaplain Corps and by allocating required resources to accomplish the Chaplain Corps mission.
b. The Civil Air Patrol Chaplain Corps promotes moral leadership, spiritual care, and character development throughout the CAP senior member and cadet programs.
c. Responding to emergencies is a critical aspect of the CAP Chaplain Corps mission. As professional clergy, CAP chaplains prepare to respond to Civil Air Patrol, USAF, and community emergencies, such as disasters, aircraft accidents, or acts of terrorism.

Not of the chaplain Corps' stated mission includes them having to

"recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

Because you are an Inspector General, I think it's very important that you understand this point. Chaplain's must carry out their duties without preaching, without recruiting, without pressure, and with respect for the spiritual decisions of those they minister to.

I understand your point and again as I stated: As long as they follow the regulations, there should be no problems.

And as you brought it up; As an IG if called upon to look into an issue, I would provide an unbiased professional report to the command authority, seeking legal guidance as needed, regardless of any personal feelings I may have about the issue, religious or otherwise.

[Chaplaindon]

Some thoughts from a retired CAP chaplain ...

In many ways this discussion mirrors an earlier issue (and one that, although I'm now retired, I suppose continues in our armed forces), that of ministry in a pluralistic society.

Chaplains have a dual role both of which involve protecting the religious freedoms of all, including those who exercise the freedom NOT to believe or to practice a particular faith, AND ministering to the spiritual, moral, and faith needs of all personnel, not only their own faith group (but not excluding their faith or denominational-specifc roles either). Part of that latter role can include evangelical sermons and/or devotionals and/or Sunday School lessons provided to those who freely CHOOSE to participate.

As to the former role, a chaplain must respect the pluralistic nature of their (unique) ministry. A chaplain can be called upon to minister to all persons (and to respect the refusal of others). I have been blessed to have ministered to a great many people of a myriad of faiths while I was an active chaplain, from devout Christian, to self-avowed "pagan." At the same time, she/he is not required to act in a manner that is against her/his faith tennets (e.g. a Roman Catholic chaplain cannot be required to serve Holy Communion to non-practicing Catholics in order to be a CAP chaplain, nor a Jewish Chaplain to violate Sabbath or dietary laws).

One visible way this dual role can be seen is in the way a chaplain prays. If I was the senior chaplain (by grade) at a SAREX and was asked to lead a prayer for, say, safety at the start of the day's sorties, that prayer SHOULD be both inclusive and respectful of the multitude of faith traditions present. Let's face it, not everyone wants to be there at that moment, nor all want to be prayed for/to/about, and this must be respected. You are saying a prayer for everyone. That would be a secular setting. If the senior chaplain were Buddhist, Muslim, or Jewish, the same expectation would be there. They pray for all. One way I made that distinction was to pray "in Your blessed and holy Name" rather than "in Jesus' Name."

On the other hand ... within a clearly designated religious setting (worship service, or Sunday School, or evening devotional), a chaplain is free to be faith specific (hence we've had Roman Catholic Mass AND a Protestant Holy Communion worship service (where I boldly and unapologetically prayed "in Jesus' Name" -consistent with CAPRs and the USAF regs and instructions), AND a Jewish Sabbath service during the same cadet encampment. Interestingly enough, we had a very large number of Christian cadets ELECT to attend the Jewish service in addition to their own specific Christian service, and they were welcomed ... as they should be.

If we allow chaplains to preach and teach doctrine specific to their faith (and the regulations both CAP and USAF do) then we must expect that, somewhere along the line, several people, at least, will be converted to a given faith. In fact, my USAF chaplain kit came with a big box of extras including a plastic sheet with instructions on using it for a baptismal. And military chapels have baptismal fonts as well. If the military didn't want chaplains "recruiting" (a very poor choice of verb ... perhaps one could say "offering an invitation") there wouldn't be baptismals for Christians.

Also, don't forget, unlike all other specialties in CAP, ONLY the non-waiver chaplains are required to meet the exact same educational requirements and endorsements as their USAF counterparts. The fact that they wear the USAF chaplain's badge on their CAP uniform reflects this unique status.

Also, you might be interested to know that CAPR 265-1 (E), §A, ¶2b, (p. 1): "The Secretary of the Air Force may use the services of Civil Air Patrol chaplains in support of the Air Force active duty and reserve component forces to the extent and under the conditions that the Secretary deems appropriate." The same paragraph adds, "In anticipation of this requirement the CAP Chaplain Service will ... provide appropriate training to prepare [CAP chaplains] for domestic, non-combat ministries." CAPR 265-2, §A, ¶2 (p. 1) states that CAP Chaplains "may be called upon to supplement the resources of the USAF Chaplain Service."

So if you try to restrict the actions of "CAP chaplains" you may well affect their potential usefulness to the USAF and the DoD.

[titanII]

Wow, great post Chaplaindon!  :clap: Thanks for the info! 

[RiverAux]

There is a big difference between a Chaplain leading a religious service (in which of course they are free to talk about their faith in particular) and being able to proselytize in non-religious settings in a CAP context.  And if a CAP member specifically approaches a Chaplain to ask them about their particular faith, I've got absolutely no problem with that Chaplain answering back and I doubt many others would.

However, if the intent of the regulation in question was to restrict proselytizing to those specific situations, then it most certainly needs revision to reflect that. 

[♠SARKID♠]

If a member goes to a chaplain and initiates the conversation with them, yes.  Should a chaplain be able to initiate that conversation?  No.

I've had chaplains, both in and out of CAP, bring up the issue.  I see them initiating the conversation as being akin to harassment.

[lordmonar]

CAP is free to eject any member of a poltical party who is abusing his CAP position.
But because of our stance on religion.....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

How do you figure?  Are we not free to have Chaplains but explicitly prohibit them from proselytizing CAP members?  How would that get us sued?  Our current regulation already halfway prohibits it, so why couldn't we go all the way? 

Just because someone's religion says that it is their duty to recruit new members doesn't mean that CAP has to allow it to happen while in CAP uniform.  We have made the choice to let them attempt to recruit those who aren't already religiously affiliated, but we are not required to do so.

Or regulations right now allow for chaplains.....so you have to take the fact that they MAY.....I SAY AGAIN.....may have a religous duty to spread the word....along with their more non-denominational duties.

If you asked them to NOT do their duty as they see fit.....then you run the gauntlet of picking and chooseing the "good" religions....and that is where you open CAP up for a law suit.

For the most part....I don't see any of this in the CAP chaplains that I have met......so this is mostly an achidemic argument for me.

[lordmonar]

So the compromise by saying.....I will not poach from your flock....but all the undecideds are fair game.

That seems decidedly unfair that "undecideds" are not offered the same protection as members of certain "flocks".

+1

But it's the way the military wrote the regulations.

[Jerry Jacobs]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

There's a time for chaplains to recruit, and its not in situations like the one described above or (in my humble opinion) at CAP meetings

[♠SARKID♠]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

There's a time for chaplains to recruit, and its not in situations like the one described above or (in my humble opinion) at CAP meetings

My blood boiled at that for a bit.

I recently took half of a CISM course.  Once the introductions were done I realized the class was about 85-90% priests.  The role play (which would have been bad enough anyway) was so dripping with "find Jesus" that I couldn't participate (and afterwards went to Hooters to get re-deviated  ).  I didn't go back for the second day.

[RiverAux]

If you asked them to NOT do their duty as they see fit.....then you run the gauntlet of picking and chooseing the "good" religions....and that is where you open CAP up for a law suit.

If the regs say that no chaplain can proselytize, then no one is being specifically picked as "good" or "bad", so no problem. 

[Hardshell Clam]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.  

[Hardshell Clam]

I recently went to my units chaplain about a month ago (USAF Reserve unit) after finding my fist deceased on a County SAR search. The find didn't bother me to much personally other than a little bit more trouble than usual going to sleep. I went to my units chaplain to talk about it and it was productive for about 5 minutes until he asked me about my faith at which point I replied I was Atheist and to quote "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" and for the next 30 minutes he talked about religion and why I should start going to church and I pretty much checked out of the conversation immediately.

There's a time for chaplains to recruit, and its not in situations like the one described above or (in my humble opinion) at CAP meetings

My blood boiled at that for a bit.

I recently took half of a CISM course.  Once the introductions were done I realized the class was about 85-90% priests.  The role play (which would have been bad enough anyway) was so dripping with "find Jesus" that I couldn't participate (and afterwards went to Hooters to get re-deviated  ).  I didn't go back for the second day.

I find this disturbing and maybe the best thing for the CISM program.

[Chappie]

Wow, great post Chaplaindon!  :clap: Thanks for the info! 

Concurs with Chaplaindon's post.

[NIN]

WIWAC, my unit's chaplain was a pretty heavy-duty Baptist minister. I think if you look up "fiery  Baptist" in the dictionary, there is a photo of him. 

Was Moral Leadership pretty strongly slanted toward his faith? Yeah.  At 14 did I know any better than to bow my head and pray when the chaplain said to?  Nope. He was a Major. I was a C/AB.  The Major says "Bow your head" you @#$% well bow your head.

Now, my buddy sitting next to me was looking around like a country-boy in New York City during all this, once, and I said "Psst. Dude, bow your head." And he said "[expletive deleted] that."  I was shocked, but in retrospect, he was right. My friend was not a Baptist, and as a matter of fact followed no specific religion. He didn't need to bow his head at the chaplain's behest any more than he needed to take communion if it were offered.  And for anybody to demand/require him to do that would have been wrong.

I got the evil eye recently from someone because I remained standing, with my hands respectfully clasped in front of me, head unbowed, during a chaplain's invocation.  This person sought me out afterwards and attempted to make me feel like I should have been more pious or something.  After listening to him yammer for a minute, I said "Wait, since according to you, everbody's head should have been bowed, what were _YOU_ doing looking around, hmmm?" That shut him right up.

As a unit commander, if a chaplain at my unit were to proselytize during Moral Leadership, I'd have a conversation with him.  Chaplains and MLOs are there to provide ethical education and character development instruction to the troops, not be missionaries for their respective faiths, at least within the context of their participation in the ML/CD aspects of the Cadet Program.

Now, if your chaplain is talking to the troops in the mess hall during lunch and encouraging participation in Sunday services, well, thats borderline, but I'd be alright with it overall, as long as they're not strong-arming people into attendance.

(Sidebar to chaplains at encampments: The same chaplain who had been my unit's chaplain was at an encampment one year where I was the training officer. I poke my head into the base theater as part of "making sure that training is happening," only to encounter the God Squad showing a 16mm film episode of the TV series "Insight" featuring Maureen McCormick [Marcia from the Brady Bunch] and the high school football team. I just happen to bop thru the door of the theater at essentially the exact wrong time.  Oh boy. I booked back to the office and said to the Commandant of Cadets "We might need to have the chaplains preview for us their training materials from now on.."   Nobody ever said anything, but geez..)

[Chappie]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

The problem is -- as I see it -- not one of a CAP member/member of the military, ect. approaching the chaplain and inquiring/seeking...but where the chaplain uses a setting such as a squadron meeting/group formation, etc. as a place to impose his/her beliefs.  A chaplain can and does perform a chapel service where that is permitted...but Character Development sessions, squadron meetings, etc aren't to be the forum for evangelizing/proselytizing.   When I served as an encampment chaplain (or where religious services needed to be offered on the week-ends), I always found the places of worship for other faith groups, published the service times and provided transportation.

[Hawk200]

Seems to me like a lot of the "tolerance" being demanded is a one way street, as if a chaplain can't speak of his faith, but they must respect anothers non-religious beliefs when they are approached.

If you approach a chaplain for some type of counseling, be prepared for their views. If you don't believe in anything, you really should not be speaking to a chaplain. Almost seems like people are looking to be offended so they can gripe about it.

Chaplains are NOT counselors in the manner that a lot of people seem to think. Education and training specific to counseling is quite different. Don't expect them to be something they are not, and then get offended when it doesn't live up to your expectations.

If statements such as "I don't see why death bothers you that much then" bother you, then don't go to them in the future. Their beliefs are not compatible with yours. I don't understand why an atheist would even approach a chaplain in the first place. Yes, the statement seems a little insensitive, but it's still what they believe. It just doesn't seem to work. It's like talking to a doctor about careers when you don't like hospitals or the idea of being in the medical field.

[Eclipse]

I find it amusing (Note I said amusing and not right or wrong) that someone would walk up to a chaplain, who are professional ministers by training/vocation, and expect a response not somehow biased upon their faith and professional training.

A minister by definition is "someone who is authorized by a church or religious organization to perform functions such as teaching of beliefs; leading services such as weddings, baptisms or funerals; or otherwise providing spiritual guidance to the community".

If you ask a legal officer (i.e.: a lawyer) you should expect legal talk, if you ask a doctor you should expect a medical view and if if ask a chaplain, one should expect a religious viewpoint. If you want non-secular advise maybe ask a non-secular counselor?

Just saying.

The chaplain should have advised the member he was not versed or trained in proper CISM technique, and that anything he
would say from there would be secular in nature, he then should have disengaged.

Seems to me like a lot of the "tolerance" being demanded is a one way street, as if a chaplain can't speak of his faith, but they must respect anothers non-religious beliefs when they are approached.

If you approach a chaplain for some type of counseling, be prepared for their views. If you don't believe in anything, you really should not be speaking to a chaplain. Almost seems like people are looking to be offended so they can gripe about it.

Sorry, not in a CAP context, where they are there to serve everyone in a secular manner, not provide advice which requires faith to be of use.

Frankly, this is the reason more and more commanders are reluctant to appoint Chaplains, because by their very nature they exert an authority that
can add weight to their beliefs, and provides them with a pulpit (so to speak), should they choose to abuse their position.  This is, especially, an issue
with cadets.  Were I a parent and found out that a CAP Chaplain (or anyone else for that matter), was attempting to recruit or minister to one of my children without my knowledge, my reaction would be somewhat "visceral".

CAP has a very specific mission, and it doesn't include religious guidance, legal advice or services, or medical advice or services, and those things should simply be left at home and off the table.

I have worked with at least one Chaplain who "got it", who is an asset to CAP in the highest meaning of that term.  I have also worked with more than one who...didn't.  Since clergy can serve CAP just as ably without a specific appointment as a Chaplain, what is the need for this?