Should CAP Chaplains be able to recruit CAP members to their faith?

[RiverAux]

While doing some investigating regarding CG Aux chaplain/lay leader issues, I happened to be looking through the CAP Chaplain Code of ethics in CAPR 265-2 and came across this:

I will not proselytize from other religious bodies, but I retain the right to evangelize those who are non affiliated.

I was quite surprised to see that CAP regulations apparently allow CAP Chaplains to attempt to recruit non-affiliated CAP members to their faiths.  I had thought that chaplains weren't supposed to proselytize at all. 

While I don't have a major problem with CAP having a Chaplain program, it should be restricted to ministering to those who are interested and Chaplains should be strictly prohibited from attempting to recruit anyone to their faith -- whether they are currently affiliated with a church or not. 

Why should those who are not in a church be subject to any form of proselytizing while on CAP duty?  Don't they have the same rights as those who are already in a church to be left alone in this area of belief?

Thoughts?

[AngelWings]

If by recruit, you mean force, then no. If you mean recruit, has in maybe you should stop this religons church or that religons church, than sure. You need two people to recruit, the recruiter and the recruitee. I can't see why somebody couldn't say "No, sir/ma'am". If I remember, we do have the Freedom Of Speech still, and I am positive CAP regulations do not say you cannot say no to a chaplain. I am sure 12-21 year olds in our organization would ask their parents about religon before heading to church, considering how it does take some maturity to join CAP and attend the meetings. I have faith in my fellow cadets, no pun intended.

[Eclipse]

No.

They are there to serve the religious needs of those in their AOR, regardless of faith, not evangelize.

[RiverAux]

And anyone in favor of the current regulation or who would like to expand it to allow CAP chaplains to recruit all members to their faith, please think about this:

What is the difference between a CAP Chaplain approaching a senior member during a CAP meeting while in CAP uniform and asking them to consider becoming a Catholic (for example) and a CAP squadron commander approaching a CAP senior member during a CAP meeting while in CAP uniform and asking that senior member to vote for Governor Joe Democrat or for Mike Republican for Senate? 

If it is inappropriate to ask people to vote for certain people it is just as inappropriate to recruit people to a particular faith. 

Sure, you can always say no, but that doesn't make it right to ask.

[AngelWings]

No.

They are there to serve the religious needs of those in their AOR, regardless of faith, not evangelize.

What is wrong with trying? IIRC, a military recruiter who was also a squadron commander might not only fullfill the requirements for the position, but might also say "Hey, I think you should join the US [insert service name], young lad" to a cadet sometime. He is there to be the squadron commander, not recruit people into the military. I think you are not seeing that people do intertwine their life into what they do, and that is what makes them them. I intertwine my experiences in CAP with JROTC. I am a C/PFC in JROTC and a member of my Battalions Fitness team and Marksmen team. Does that mean I should not try to recruit fellow members into CAP, because I am there to shoot an air rifle or do push-ups? I think not.

[Ed Bos]

What is wrong with trying?

What's wrong with trying is this:

Chaplains are in a unique position to help others when people are at their most desperate, and more vulnerable.

Chaplains are trusted people that other members approach with their most serious problems, or in their deepest grief. If the answer that the Buddhist chaplain always comes back with is "things will be better if you become a Buddhist," Then there's something seriously wrong with that situation. Chaplains must refrain from proselytizing (recruiting) in these situations because of the potential for taking advantage of people who are vulnerable.

Note: not hating on the Buddhist chaplains out there, just making an example. I truly believe that there's less potential for a Buddhist chaplain to do such a thing, than others, so I thought they'd be a safe illustration in this case.

[EMT-83]

I can imagine that chaplains do a delicate balancing act, where they have a duty to perform but can't overstep their boundaries.

I think that "recruit" is the wrong word. If the chaplain, in the course of performing his duties, becomes aware that a member is seeking a house of worship, of course he should extend an invitation.

[Ed Bos]

I can imagine that chaplains do a delicate balancing act, where they have a duty to perform but can't overstep their boundaries.

I absolutly agree, which is why I assume the requirements to serve as a chaplain are so stringent.

I think that "recruit" is the wrong word. If the chaplain, in the course of performing his duties, becomes aware that a member is seeking a house of worship, of course he should extend an invitation.

Proselytize is more closely related to "recruiting" than the supportive guidance you seem to be indicating in your example. If someone asks for specific support and receive specific guidance, I am sure that's not what people mean by "proselytizing."

[coudano]

First off, trying to "convert" people to your religion (like getting more conversions than the other team is how your team wins) is kind of stupid, right up front.

That said, there is nothing at all prohibiting say, one cadet from asking his friend (another cadet) "hey, you wanna go to church with me on Sunday?"  Even if that happens during swing time at a CAP meeting, in uniform, I have no problem there.  No more than a cadet saying "hey you wanna go to my RC Airplane flying club on sunday" or whatever.

Why should it be no big deal for two non-chaplain members,
yet the ordained minister is restricted from doing the same thing?

Chaplains are in a position of trust and care specifically *BECAUSE* of their religious affiliation (and the training that -should have- (but didn't necessarily) gone along with it).  From a religious point of view, many people turn to religion, and religious leaders for counsel and advice, especially in times of difficulty.  Chaplains (pastors, priests, etc) are there to turn to in those times.  It's actually their full time profession.  Ministry is, by definition, the meeting of people's needs.  IF someone comes to a chaplain in a time of difficulty, and that chaplain has helped them in a way, that they decide to pursue faith in that chaplain's church, that *IS* prosetylization in effect, even if that's not quite how you often think about it.  Whether the person helped was of a different faith or no faith in particular.  Ministers minister, to meet the felt needs of people, in order to address their perhaps unperceived spiritual needs later.  That is (round about) prosetylization.

More often you think of the bible beating, soap box preaching, tshirt wearing, tract handing out, evangelical protestant christians.  And I don't think *anyone* should do THAT, including the people who do it (certainly not a chaplain, who probably ought to know better).  I know athiests and buddhists that are *FAR* more effective 'evangelists' than that crowd, without all the in your face jumping and shouting and gnashing of teeth.

[Hardshell Clam]

The basic nature of a chaplains mission is to "recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

So as long as no one is "forced" to "become religious"  (for lack of a better term and for brevity), I see no issue as long as they stay on the right side of the regulations. 

[Ed Bos]

The basic nature of a chaplains mission is to "recruit" persons to have a relationship with God.

That's a gross misunderstanding of what a chaplain's role is.

A chaplain's mission is to see to the spiritual and emotional needs of their groups' personnel. Included in this number would be an atheist who is grieving the loss of a spouse. The chaplain is there to provide counsel and guidance, not to offer them solace via an invitation to their church.

[cap235629]

in a word....

NO

however if approached with questions an invitation to meet outside CAP would be ok

[Ed Bos]

First off, trying to "convert" people to your religion (like getting more conversions than the other team is how your team wins) is kind of stupid, right up front.

Agreed.

That said, there is nothing at all prohibiting say, one cadet from asking his friend (another cadet) "hey, you wanna go to church with me on Sunday?"  Even if that happens during swing time at a CAP meeting, in uniform, I have no problem there.  No more than a cadet saying "hey you wanna go to my RC Airplane flying club on sunday" or whatever.

Dubious... I don't think that belongs at any CAP meeting or activity, since it's clearly a sensitive issue and doesn't relate to the mission-at-hand. Whether these cadets discuss it before or after the meeting is another story, but I'm sure their parents would want to have input in that sort of discussion.

Chaplains are in a position of trust and care specifically *BECAUSE* of their religious affiliation (and the training that -should have- (but didn't necessarily) gone along with it).  From a religious point of view, many people turn to religion, and religious leaders for counsel and advice, especially in times of difficulty.  Chaplains (pastors, priests, etc) are there to turn to in those times.  It's actually their full time profession.  Ministry is, by definition, the meeting of people's needs.  IF someone comes to a chaplain in a time of difficulty, and that chaplain has helped them in a way, that they decide to pursue faith in that chaplain's church, that *IS* prosetylization in effect, even if that's not quite how you often think about it.  Whether the person helped was of a different faith or no faith in particular.  Ministers minister, to meet the felt needs of people, in order to address their perhaps unperceived spiritual needs later.  That is (round about) prosetylization.

Chaplains are in that position of trust and responsibility because their professional and personal choices have made them the SME on spiritual and emotional issues. I've seen a Humanist Chaplain who does a wonderful job ministering to the people who seek him out, and he is not a religious person in the least.

Chaplains must respect the differing religions and choice to follow no religion, that are all represented by CAP members. Their charge is a delicate one, and overstepping that bound can be problematic, to put it mildly.

Bottom line, chaplains are should not advocate one religion over another. That's what proselytization is.

[lordmonar]

It is the two edged sword.

Chaplains should be there for all faiths (and non faiths).

But they have a right to practice their faith as they see it.....so they may have a religious duty to recruit.

So the compromise by saying.....I will not poach from your flock....but all the undecideds are fair game.

AS far as should the recruit.......it is yes......if you have chaplains they must be able to recruit....or you are stomping on their rights and duties as chaplains......So.....you need to add another box to your voting....."should we have chaplains at all?"

That's my vote.

PS....to all you Chaplains out there...I think that for the most part you are a great bunch of guys who do a lot of good work......my personal opinon about the seperation of church and state (and CAP and Church) does not a statement about the job you guys do and my admoration for your work.

[RiverAux]

If it is the duty of Republicans to recruit more Republicans is CAP obligated to let them do it on CAP time while in CAP uniform?  No.

[lordmonar]

If it is the duty of Republicans to recruit more Republicans is CAP obligated to let them do it on CAP time while in CAP uniform?  No.

Political freedom is not the same a religious freedom.

CAP is free to eject any member of a poltical party who is abusing his CAP position.
But because of our stance on religion.....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

Also....there is a difference between a random member of CAP who is also a republican and a CHAPLAIN in CAP who's job is to practice his religion.

Like I said.....I would like to avoid the problem altogether by eliminating the chaplain duty position.

[titanII]

So what is the exact role of Chaplains, especially among diverse CAP members and cadets? I've always been a bit confused about this. I know in the military, Chaplains perform services, last rites, etc. But what about in CAP? I guess I'm looking for specific examples.
For example, how would a Chaplain of one religion guide a member of a completely different religion?

Also, couldn't a Chaplain be somebody completely not related to a certain religion, yet an experienced person in that  faculty (guidance), like a psychiatrist or a guidance counselor?

[RiverAux]

CAP is free to eject any member of a poltical party who is abusing his CAP position.
But because of our stance on religion.....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

How do you figure?  Are we not free to have Chaplains but explicitly prohibit them from proselytizing CAP members?  How would that get us sued?  Our current regulation already halfway prohibits it, so why couldn't we go all the way? 

Just because someone's religion says that it is their duty to recruit new members doesn't mean that CAP has to allow it to happen while in CAP uniform.  We have made the choice to let them attempt to recruit those who aren't already religiously affiliated, but we are not required to do so. 

[Ed Bos]

....you can't do the same to chaplains or even common members without getting hit up by the ACLU.

Wait... What? Where does the ACLU enter into this conversation at all?

[Darkside1]

So the compromise by saying.....I will not poach from your flock....but all the undecideds are fair game.

That seems decidedly unfair that "undecideds" are not offered the same protection as members of certain "flocks".