Why is there a difference between some medal ribbons and their small ribbons?

[lordmonar]

Thank you for your answers, gang.  I guess what I am suggesting is that they be made available for those officers who want them, just as the miniature medals are.  An officer who wants a full shadow box won't mind paying the $15 to $20 each full-size medal would cost, and those who don't -- or who think such bling is silly -- wouldn't have to do so.

The ribbon drape already exists, as do the medal faces (miniature dies, to be sure, but they can be cut in full-size as well).  There's no need to re-design the drape or the medal itself, as those designs are already there.  (They may suck as medal designs, but they're there.)

I've often thought of trying to get hold of enough ribbon to make drapes for each of my CAP awards, and the proper size and shape blank medallions, and have my own set created.  If I do, I'll let you all see what it looks like.

The problem is set up costs....to mint a coin/medal a production run of 1 costs just as much as a production run of 200.

I'm sure that national could ask vanguard or any medal company to make them...but they would have to buy at least 200 of each kind...for every medal (somithing like 20 off the top of my head) at say $15 bucks a pop....That would be a $60,000 initial investment by CAP to start this up.

I like the idea...but I'd rather CAP spend the money on O-rides or Flying hours.

[Hawk200]

Thank you for your answers, gang.  I guess what I am suggesting is that they be made available for those officers who want them, just as the miniature medals are.  An officer who wants a full shadow box won't mind paying the $15 to $20 each full-size medal would cost, and those who don't -- or who think such bling is silly -- wouldn't have to do so.

The ribbon drape already exists, as do the medal faces (miniature dies, to be sure, but they can be cut in full-size as well).  There's no need to re-design the drape or the medal itself, as those designs are already there.  (They may suck as medal designs, but they're there.)

I've often thought of trying to get hold of enough ribbon to make drapes for each of my CAP awards, and the proper size and shape blank medallions, and have my own set created.  If I do, I'll let you all see what it looks like.

Jack

There's a few reasons that these kinds of medals wouldn't be only about $15 to 20 each. If they were initially commissioned, they would probably vary anywhere from $50 to $100 each. Mostly because of initial low demand.

Second, when a company like Vanguard  initially produces a design, they want to make as much money back initially as possible. Which means the first few batches produced would be spendy.

Third, even at 15 to 20 bucks apiece, that adds up, considering how freely CAP gives out ribbons. For me, that would be $135 to $180. Some people will balk at getting a whole set. (Yes, I know they don't have to, but many will look at it like that.)

And it already costs a few bucks for us to maintain membership. Shopping practically, a new service coat would be equal in cost, or you could get a couple pairs of BDU's. Full size medals overall just aren't a really practical concept. Nice idea, but not practical.

[Guardrail]

I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

We're only talking about 6 medals here. 

[Pylon]

I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

We're only talking about 6 medals here. 

Because when I want to add a mini-medal to my mess dress uniform, I don't want the price of the medal going up at all because somebody else wanted to tinker with the designs.

Do I like the designs of our mini-medals?  No.   I think they're plain, uninteresting, poorly designed medals.  But I'm a designer by trade, so I have a strong opinion about these types of things.  It still doesn't mean I want them to change, because it's already [darn] expensive enough when I shell out $7 per medal as it is now.  I don't think most CAP members want to see increased price in anything we purchase, whether voluntary or not, unless what they're getting is truly a superior product and vast improvement.   

There's no confusion over the drapes now, right?  I don't look at another SM wearing mess dress and think "Oh man!  That's crazy!  I can't figure out what medal he's wearing there on the second row in the middle!   I'm going to have to go ask him wha... oh, I need another drink......"

[AlphaSigOU]

I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

That may be a more cost-effective way of doing it, but youre gonna run into opposition from those who do sport mess dress regularly - nichts mich. Some will probably spend some dollars to get the rack professionally mounted. And it ain't easy pulling 'em apart, unless you use the standard mess dress ribbon holders.

[lordmonar]

I wonder how much it would cost for CAP to redesign the drapes of the aforementioned mini medals (Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, Unit Citation and Search & Rescue) to match those of the ribbons, or vice-versa?

We're only talking about 6 medals here. 

Not counting that they would automatically lose all the money they have tied up in inventory.....At a guess....set up fees would be about $100 a pop....then depending on the initial run (say 2000 each) you are looking at CAP spending around $60K to redo, produce and restock six mini medals...so they match their ribbon rack ribbon.

How many people wear the mess dress anyway?  If they were in that high of a demand...they would have changed them when they changed the full size ribbon.  But they did not.

[DNall]

I'm not sure it'd go 60k. You're talking about changing out the drapes, not the metal. How much do standard ribbons cost? 80 cents. Figure you could send in your old-stly minis & have them converted for a couple bucks a piece plus shipping. Producing the fabric isn't expensive, nor is preparing it to be mounted. The metal dangles are the expensive part & those would cost quite a lot to change, which is NOT what was proposed.

I have to say though that it's just not that big a deal. I don't see the call for it so it isn't happening.

[SAR-EMT1]

For the record, I am a 22 year old 1st Lt. and a meager one at that 
However I am bound for AD (AFROTC) sooner or later -medical hold-
And I come from a military family.
That all said, while I dont give a hoot or holler about mess dress...
(hey I can just as easily buy a semesters worth of text books)
BUT I would be willing to shell out for Full sized for the box ...down the road when Im old feeble and ready to have a shadow box *along with my nice silver oak leaves*
What would the price to work up be if left to a possible 3rd party vendor -vanguard overcharges soo much- AND made sure it was a phased introduction. ?

[Dragoon]

A better question might be "why does CAP have mini-medals at all for ribbons that, were we USAF, wouldn
t rate a medal at all?"

Education and training ribbons, by and large, don't get medals in the real world.  Just "attaboys" and campaign related stuff.

[AlphaSigOU]

A better question might be "why does CAP have mini-medals at all for ribbons that, were we USAF, wouldn
t rate a medal at all?"

Education and training ribbons, by and large, don't get medals in the real world.  Just "attaboys" and campaign related stuff.

CAP was authorized wear of the mini-medals when the Air Force allowed us to wear the mess dress uniform in 1969 (the old black and white with sleeve and shoulder board braid in ultramarine blue). For reasons unknown (bling envy?) CAP decided to model all available senior member awards into mini-medals. The Silver and Bronze Medals of Valor and the Distinguished/Exceptional/Meritorious Service awards are the only CAP mini-medals that do not have their medals in a round shape.

Best thing about the all-or-some rule for mess dress: you don't hafta wear all of 'em if you dont wanna look like a banana-republic general.

[Pylon]

A better question might be "why does CAP have mini-medals at all for ribbons that, were we USAF, wouldn
t rate a medal at all?"

Education and training ribbons, by and large, don't get medals in the real world.  Just "attaboys" and campaign related stuff.

A good answer might be that CAP doesn't actually recognize the contributions of most of its members with "attaboys" awards, like the USAF and other branches of the military.  In CAP, you could save a squadron from closing, implement successful new programs, provide leadership for important projects, and carry about three duty assignments at once for years on end and be recognized with nothing more than maybe a certificate of appreciation.  Some areas in CAP you have to practically save humanity itself to rate a Commander's Commendation.

So those of us, like myself, who have been in over a decade would still probably have nothing on their uniforms.  If that were the case, I'd have an IACE medal and that's probably about it.

I see what you're saying, but CAP doesn't recognize its members so it would look rather sparse for most officers, unless they were wing staff.

[Dragoon]

A good answer might be that CAP doesn't actually recognize the contributions of most of its members with "attaboys" awards, like the USAF and other branches of the military.  In CAP, you could save a squadron from closing, implement successful new programs, provide leadership for important projects, and carry about three duty assignments at once for years on end and be recognized with nothing more than maybe a certificate of appreciation.  Some areas in CAP you have to practically save humanity itself to rate a Commander's Commendation.

Understand I'm not faulting the ribbons.  I'm faulting the medals.  Giving out ribbons for things like PD, flying cadet orientation rides, etc have a pretty good precedent in the military.  But if we wanted to be USAF-y with our mini medals, you'd only have em for, say:


The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)
The Air Search and Rescue Ribbon (kind of our Air Medal)
The Find Ribbon
Commanders Commendation
Meriotorious Service Award
Exceptional Service Award
Distinguished Service Award
Lifesaving Award
Unit Citation (maybe)
Distinguished Service Medal
Bronze Medal of Valor
Silver Medal of Valor
Counterdrug Ribbon (maybe)
Disaster Relief Ribbon (but probably only if earned through service, rather than training)

Most everything else would just be a ribbon.  Which means for most members, nothing would change.  Just less dangly stuff for the few who wear mess dress.

[lordmonar]

I'm not sure it'd go 60k. You're talking about changing out the drapes, not the metal. How much do standard ribbons cost? 80 cents. Figure you could send in your old-stly minis & have them converted for a couple bucks a piece plus shipping. Producing the fabric isn't expensive, nor is preparing it to be mounted. The metal dangles are the expensive part & those would cost quite a lot to change, which is NOT what was proposed.

I have to say though that it's just not that big a deal. I don't see the call for it so it isn't happening.

Well if you figure production costs.  Mini medals cost $6.25 retail....let's assume a 100% mark up...so we are talking about $3 per unit.  Even if you count the savings that you would have by reusing the old medal disks...you have to figure the costs of removing them from the old mini medals....I would guess that it would just be cheaper to start from scratch.

So....Vanguard or CAP would have to foot the initial production runs.  Six medals....2000 units per run at $3 each is $24K....so I over estimated.  I used the retail costs as my orginal estimate instead of "at cost" figure.

[AlphaSigOU]

I'd probably keep the highest senior PD award completed, much like the former cadinks who can keep their highest cadet milestone award when they succumb to the dark side.

So if you earned the GRW, by all means wear it! But if not, a Garber, Loening or Davis is fine.

[Hawk200]

A good answer might be that CAP doesn't actually recognize the contributions of most of its members with "attaboys" awards, like the USAF and other branches of the military.  In CAP, you could save a squadron from closing, implement successful new programs, provide leadership for important projects, and carry about three duty assignments at once for years on end and be recognized with nothing more than maybe a certificate of appreciation.  Some areas in CAP you have to practically save humanity itself to rate a Commander's Commendation.

Understand I'm not faulting the ribbons.  I'm faulting the medals.  Giving out ribbons for things like PD, flying cadet orientation rides, etc have a pretty good precedent in the military.  But if we wanted to be USAF-y with our mini medals, you'd only have em for, say:


The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)
The Air Search and Rescue Ribbon (kind of our Air Medal)
The Find Ribbon
Commanders Commendation
Meriotorious Service Award
Exceptional Service Award
Distinguished Service Award
Lifesaving Award
Unit Citation (maybe)
Distinguished Service Medal
Bronze Medal of Valor
Silver Medal of Valor
Counterdrug Ribbon (maybe)
Disaster Relief Ribbon (but probably only if earned through service, rather than training)

Most everything else would just be a ribbon.  Which means for most members, nothing would change.  Just less dangly stuff for the few who wear mess dress.

I could get on board with that list. Seems fair to all, and seems to be something that would mirror the military's concept of decorations.

[MIKE]

The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)

More like the Air Force Longevity Service Award:

The Air Search and Rescue Ribbon (kind of our Air Medal)

Maybe for the aircrews, but I would say not really.

[SAR-EMT1]

But alas the USAF has never had the sense of the USCG to grant its Auxiliarist brethren real ribbons and awards. ... And I dont see that changing without some serious lobbying.

[Hawk200]

The Red Service Ribbon (kind of our good conduct medal)

More like the Air Force Longevity Service Award:

I would have to agree on that note. Maybe we should consider revising the award criteria for the Red Service, make it more in line with what a good conduct medal would is. Only award it when there is good behaviour, consistent progression through the program, and regular consistent attendance.

When active duty, I knew people that didn't get a good conduct, but still received the longevity. Which could bring some questions like: "Why do you have two awards of the Longevity, but only one Good Conduct medal?". It would show that you got into trouble.

I don't see any reason to have two separate timecounter decs, but we could work on the Red Service.

[Hawk200]

But alas the USAF has never had the sense of the USCG to grant its Auxiliarist brethren real ribbons and awards. ... And I dont see that changing without some serious lobbying.

True. The Air Force seems to treat us like pets. Gives us a pat on the head when we do good, but rarely gives us any treats. And seriously berates us when there are problems.

[Dragoon]

I realize that USCGAUX guys can get a some CG medals, but they also have a slew of their own.

Most CGAUX guys I've seen (and admittedly, that ain't a lot) haven't had an real CG medals except perhaps a unit citation.

Anyone have the inside scoop on how often Auxies get real CG awards?