Corporate uniform and saluting

[sneakers]

I salute a sm even when they are wearing a polo, seeing how that is somewhat similar to the corporate uniform in that they are both CAP-distinctive uniforms. However, if a sm is in civvies, just a verbal greeting is appropriate.

[Eclipse]

According to several sources, the gray/white is considered a CAP distinctive uniform and not a military style uniform. Playing of the National Anthem and performing the pledge of Allegiance should be with hand over heart just like the polo shirt.

Anyone have something different?

We're not talking about the flag code, we're talking about internal CAP regs and policies regarding saluting.
All uniforms are equal internally.

[jimmydeanno]

Holy cow, for a group of people that love to throw regs around how is there so much interpretation of what we're supposed to do?  It's pretty straightforward, black and white - which is what I thought CT was all about.

There isn't anything to discuss.  CAPP 151 tells us exactly what is appropriate.  It says that it doesn't matter what the officer is wearing.  If you are uniformed and recognize them as an officer, salute.  Not "if civies then only verbal greeting" or "if before 10am on every other Tuesday".

Is this another case of people learning something one way and refusing to change to the CAP way because "The RM does it this way"?

Adding all these amendments only serves to confuse people new to CAP, our cadets, and makes C&C difficult, when in reality they should be easy and natural.

[Eclipse]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

People who show a disdain for saluting, or who makes excuse and find loopholes are generally not very good overall players.
Just because you have the technical skill to do "something", does not mean your behavior and attitude are not a detriment to
the mission overall.

[MIKE]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

Do you need me to quote the regulation that says they aren't, cause I will.

[Eclipse]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

Do you need me to quote the regulation that says they aren't, cause I will.

Is it relevant, really?

For the most part CAP hasn't adhered to the regulations regarding regulations for more than a decade.  Manuals as regs, ICLs that don't expire,
the majority of documents and a lot of materials so out of date as to be irrelevant or even detrimental when used, and of course board and council actions and comments treated as the writ of law even though they are never published and are ambiguous at best.  The list is pretty long.

Its a mess, and people lean on nonsense like the difference between a "p" and an "r" as an excuse, not valid justification for behavior or action.

[SARDOC]

The next thing is someone saying pamphlets aren't regulatory...

Do you need me to quote the regulation that says they aren't, cause I will.

Is it relevant, really?

For the most part CAP hasn't adhered to the regulations regarding regulations for more than a decade.  Manuals as regs, ICLs that don't expire,
the majority of documents and a lot of materials so out of date as to be irrelevant or even detrimental when used, and of course board and council actions and comments treated as the writ of law even though they are never published and are ambiguous at best.  The list is pretty long.

Its a mess, and people lean on nonsense like the difference between a "p" and an "r" as an excuse, not valid justification for behavior or action.

Well you are the one who brought it up   

This sounds like the symptoms of a bigger problem.  Leadership should ensure that the documents are done correctly and updated as appropriate.  With Technology the way it is today, there is absolutely no reason why it should take this long to update regulations.

There is a difference between "p" and "r" for a reason.  There is an order of Hierarchy among these documents. As a Civil Air Patrol member I am obligated to follow the CAP Constitution, Bylaws and regulations where the Pamphlets are meant to be nondirective informational guidelines.

[Persona non grata]

Regardless of what the person is wearing If thier grade or postion is higher than mine I salute and carry on.  BINTD I saluted GO's who were in civies.

[bosshawk]

I seem to remember a change in Federal law which allows the rendering of the hand salute during the National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance by anyone who has served in the Armed Forces, regardless of the attire of the veteran.  I can't quote chapter and verse, so please don't ask for it.

It seems to me that there is too much emphasis in this blog on strictest interpretation of the rules.  If a salute is indicated, render it and move on.  As some have stated, a salute is a greeting, not an example of a subordinate rendering honors to a superior, although it can indicate that.

It seem to me that I rendered my first hand salute in 1947, so I have done a lot of them.

[Eclipse]

I seem to remember a change in Federal law which allows the rendering of the hand salute during the National Anthem and the Pledge of Allegiance by anyone who has served in the Armed Forces, regardless of the attire of the veteran.  I can't quote chapter and verse, so please don't ask for it.

That is correct, back in 2009 the Flag Code was amended to allow veterans of the armed forces to salute the flag during hoisting and the anthem.

[Slim]

Here's what else CAPP 151 has to say on the subject, on page 3:

Senior Members. For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer). Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

Which takes me back to "Salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what they're wearing".  Which-to me-covers the polo and blazer combo.  True, the polo doesn't have any rank displayed, but chances are that you know the person, and whether they outrank you or not.  If they do, and you don't render courtesies, you can politely explain that you couldn't tell if they outranked you or not.  The blazer is a bit different.  You can recognize the wearer's grade, just by looking at the nameplate.

[ZigZag911]

Several years ago I was teaching a summer evening course (really late spring) at a local college. Stepped outside during a  break about 7:00 PM, discovered a local high school had rented college auditorium for graduation. People milling about, taking pictures, and so forth.

I was group CC at the time, and we had inspected local squadron a couple of weeks earlier.

So I'm standing there thinking about the next part of my lecture (in civvies, of course) when a youngster no more than 13 years old (also in civvies) pops to attention, renders a parade ground worthy salute, and pipes up "Good evening, Colonel" at the top of his admittedly still high-pitched voice!

Now, I could have given him a lecture on time, place, circumstances...but, a salute is, after all, a greeting...so I returned the salute, chatted for a minute, told him to go enjoy his sister's graduation celebration, and sent him off feeling happy and fulfilled!

[Eclipse]

and sent him off feeling happy and fulfilled!

Let all of you who avoid, disdain, or otherwise downplay our customs and courtesies read and heed the impact it has on others when you
choose to ignore or denigrate their efforts at showing respect for you and the organization.

Even if it is somehow "too much trouble for you", it may be important to others, and your attitude may have a more far-reaching impact
than the 15 seconds of your "inconvenience".

[a2capt]

[Perez]

The above is genius!

[CT074CC]

I really love it Eclipse!

When I was a cadet some time ago, it was and still remains that if you recognize someone as an officer, regardless of their attire, you are to render a proper salute.

Has this changed in the past five years?

Going a step further, how can we expect our cadets to render proper C&C with the right attitude and philosophy if we ourselves are unwilling to?

[Dracosbane]

In my squadron, the SMs are a small group who generally understand C&C, but aren't all that concerned when it comes to saluting amongst ourselves.  Most of the time that's because several of us are all the same rank, and because we're all long time friends.  We do show proper saluting on occasion when specifically around cadets.

Case in point:  My cadets were training a new cadet on the use of the guidon.  After the instruction and D&C, they were taking a couple of minutes to prepare for the next task and I was holding the guidon.  Our highest ranking member walked by as I was talking to the new cadet, so I snapped to, and rendered the proper salute.  He wasn't wearing his cover, not sure why, but he acknowledged the salute and went on.  Normally, I probably wouldn't have worried about it, but I specifically wanted to show the cadet A) the proper salute with a guidon and B) that we still do respect and greet each other accordingly, even if we don't do it all the time.