Special initial appointments for those with infantry skills

[afgeo4]

Does a soldier being a Ranger/Pathfinder/SF give him automatic promotions in the Army?  Nope.  And his skills are a lot more directly benefitting that service.

What about someone who is as well or better qualified to be ground team member because they are a member of a SAR team or Park Ranger or Survival Specialist?  Should we just make them Majors and give them a squadron off the bat?

I think people who have skills get the appropriate recognition.  For those who have the skills set for a ground team member, a GT badge is authorized as recognition.  For those who are good enough to be a team leader, a senior GT badge is authorized, etc.  Skill sets aren't promotable unless you're a pilot, lawyer, doctor, nurse, chaplain. That's how it is in the military, that's how it is in CAP. Anyone with prior service will understand that.  Is it fair?  Not everything in life is, but my personal feelings on this are that it's fair.

[Rangersigo]

Does a soldier being a Ranger/Pathfinder/SF give him automatic promotions in the Army?  Nope.  And his skills are a lot more directly benefitting that service.

What about someone who is as well or better qualified to be ground team member because they are a member of a SAR team or Park Ranger or Survival Specialist?  Should we just make them Majors and give them a squadron off the bat?

I think we are mixing to can of worms here.  You are correct that these schools do not initiate promotions.  The schools you cited above are not for every soldier and your statement is not entirely correct.  A Specialist in the Army can attend SFAS and the the "Q", and will be automatically promoted to E-5 upon successful completion.  To attend the Ranger course in the Army, you either have to be "leader" of some capacity, normally E-5 or above and if you are in a Ranger Battalion, slotted for a leadership position where you are promoted to Corporal or SGT upon completion.  Pathfinder School is considered an advanced skill course and when I went there was no one below E-5 in the course.

Normally those skills are going to be accompanied by a degree of rank and leadership experience.  Someone off the street who SAYS the were a Ranger, SF, Pathfinder, as said earlier should be able to run circles around an average ground team member and should be given an opportunity to demonstrate this and be certified in some way by CAP.

On the other hand, the average SGT/SSG Ranger, SF, is going to walk in the door with more leadership, planning, discipline, than a person joining CAP cold without these experience will ever be able to achieve in serving 30 years in CAP.  I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

[TankerT]

I think we are mixing to can of worms here.  You are correct that these schools do not initiate promotions.  The schools you cited above are not for every soldier and your statement is not entirely correct.  A Specialist in the Army can attend SFAS and the the "Q", and will be automatically promoted to E-5 upon successful completion.  To attend the Ranger course in the Army, you either have to be "leader" of some capacity, normally E-5 or above and if you are in a Ranger Battalion, slotted for a leadership position where you are promoted to Corporal or SGT upon completion.  Pathfinder School is considered an advanced skill course and when I went there was no one below E-5 in the course.

Normally those skills are going to be accompanied by a degree of rank and leadership experience.  Someone off the street who SAYS the were a Ranger, SF, Pathfinder, as said earlier should be able to run circles around an average ground team member and should be given an opportunity to demonstrate this and be certified in some way by CAP.

On the other hand, the average SGT/SSG Ranger, SF, is going to walk in the door with more leadership, planning, discipline, than a person joining CAP cold without these experience will ever be able to achieve in serving 30 years in CAP.  I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

Well... I agree with this to a point.  However, having all the military experience in the world will do you no good if you expect CAP members to react in the same way.  Managing CAP members has more to do with managing personalities and soft skills than it does with actual real authority.  It is often an entirely different context of leadership. 

And, while not a Ranger School Graduate myself, my experience has not been that you need to be in any position of authority to attend that course.  (I've known and worked with plenty of E-3 Ranger School Graduates.  None whom were slotted to a Ranger unit.  I also had four E-3 Ranger School graduates in my chalk at Jump School.  My understanding is that this is still occurring.) 

While Ranger skills are superior to many Ground Team related tasks, they don't cover the whole spectrum. 

I think we waive too many items for " special promotions" and thus we have too many Majors that run around that don't have a clue about CAP.  (Doctors, Accountants, etc.)  I understand we need people with these skills... but... it also can hurt us at the same time.

I think most individuals thar are an E-5+ ex-Ranger will navigate CAP promotions at a minimum time rate, and excel at our program, while developing the needed knowledge for CAP to function well within our program.  (So they know the difference between us and the military.)

[Rangersigo]

And, while not a Ranger School Graduate myself, my experience has not been that you need to be in any position of authority to attend that course.  (I've known and worked with plenty of E-3 Ranger School Graduates.  None whom were slotted to a Ranger unit.  I also had four E-3 Ranger School graduates in my chalk at Jump School.  My understanding is that this is still occurring.) 

I concur and also agree that the leadership skills are different and most Rangers would not find the CAP environment the right one for them.  Most joined the military and Rangers for the Ranger expereince....

On another note, they have not allowed "Leg" Rangers for a very long time as well as soldiers below the rank of E-4.  My guess is that these Rangers were either prior service that could not get in at their previous rank or they were PX Rangers.

[Al Sayre]

The understatement of the year:

...having all the military experience in the world will do you no good if you expect CAP members to react in the same way.  Managing CAP members has more to do with managing personalities and soft skills than it does with actual real authority.  It is often an entirely different context of leadership. 

Think herding cats...

[flyguy06]

Does a soldier being a Ranger/Pathfinder/SF give him automatic promotions in the Army?  Nope.  And his skills are a lot more directly benefitting that service.

What about someone who is as well or better qualified to be ground team member because they are a member of a SAR team or Park Ranger or Survival Specialist?  Should we just make them Majors and give them a squadron off the bat?

I think we are mixing to can of worms here.  You are correct that these schools do not initiate promotions.  The schools you cited above are not for every soldier and your statement is not entirely correct.  A Specialist in the Army can attend SFAS and the the "Q", and will be automatically promoted to E-5 upon successful completion.  To attend the Ranger course in the Army, you either have to be "leader" of some capacity, normally E-5 or above and if you are in a Ranger Battalion, slotted for a leadership position where you are promoted to Corporal or SGT upon completion.  Pathfinder School is considered an advanced skill course and when I went there was no one below E-5 in the course.

Normally those skills are going to be accompanied by a degree of rank and leadership experience.  Someone off the street who SAYS the were a Ranger, SF, Pathfinder, as said earlier should be able to run circles around an average ground team member and should be given an opportunity to demonstrate this and be certified in some way by CAP.

On the other hand, the average SGT/SSG Ranger, SF, is going to walk in the door with more leadership, planning, discipline, than a person joining CAP cold without these experience will ever be able to achieve in serving 30 years in CAP.  I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

I will agre to this to a pont, howvere at Ranger school, you didnt learn to use an ELT. You didnt cover parallel track dearches or line searches. You id did cover air/grounds ops but you covered it in a different kind of way than how CAP uses it.

[RiverAux]

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate.

I have never quite understood the need to have doctor or lawyer positions in squadron or group org charts.  In about 10 years of CAP service I have never actually seen a Medical or Legal Officer at those levels actually have anything useful to do. 

Now, if CAP and the AF work it out so that CAP doctors, lawyers, etc. can augment AF units then I can see some value. 

Now, I would love to have one of them doctors on a ground team, but never actually seen it happen. 

[fyrfitrmedic]

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate.

I have never quite understood the need to have doctor or lawyer positions in squadron or group org charts.  In about 10 years of CAP service I have never actually seen a Medical or Legal Officer at those levels actually have anything useful to do. 

Now, if CAP and the AF work it out so that CAP doctors, lawyers, etc. can augment AF units then I can see some value. 

Now, I would love to have one of them doctors on a ground team, but never actually seen it happen. 

Playing devil's advocate for a moment:

Let's take a hypothetical non-emergency medicine/trauma doc who hasn't had ATLS or wilderness-medicine training or the like. What's he/she gonna do in the field that makes them more of an asset than a person of lesser medical training?

I've known doctors and nurses [and more than a few medics and EMTs] who are like fish out of water outside their accustomed element. Training is the key, and much of that for medical folks is really outside CAP's current purview.

[RiverAux]

I was just saying that they could potentially be of use on a ground team but I've never seen a squadron medical officer do anything.....  Even without a ton of equipment I'd rather have just about any doc at the scene than a cadet with basic first aid.  If nothing else the Dr. could accurately assess the patient and provide detailed info to follow on personnel.

[Major_Chuck]

Regarding Legal and Medical Officers.  I've seen them in some units and they are proactive in the unit, however you have to remember that some medical and legal officers are going to have a reluctance to serve in that role for liability and insurance reasons.

"Doc Smith in XYZ Squadron told me to treat the infection with Borax, now its infected.  I'm going to sue him.  I'll get Colonel Billy Bob in ABC squadron to represent me because we fly together."

You'll find most legal officers working on the wing level and to some extent group levels.  Medical, CAP is still trying to muddle through that one.

-chuck

[TankerT]

On another note, they have not allowed "Leg" Rangers for a very long time as well as soldiers below the rank of E-4.  My guess is that these Rangers were either prior service that could not get in at their previous rank or they were PX Rangers.

At the time, E-4 was "supposed" to be the minimum grade to attend Ranger school.  But, that was often waived due to a lack of qualified applicants making it through RIP.

"A long time" is somewhat subjective.  I can guarentee you that these folks were NOT PX Rangers.  Nor were they prior service.  But, the latest I personally ran into an E-3 Ranger was 1998.  I went through Jump School with several leg E-3 Rangers in 1995.  (They had just finished Ranger School, and were letting everyone know it...)

[DNall]

I guess the question is do we want these folks in CAP or are we threathened by them?  Are there a lot of persons who have been playing Military in CAP in leadership positions that they are afraid of persons who served?  I don't know, have only been in CAP for a short time - time will tell....

There's actually quite a few such people in CAP. I know several personally. Their skills certainly have proven invaluable. And the qual system is alsready set up to just demonstrate tasks, so no problem there.

I love having such people in CAP, but I don't think we should be bribing them w/ 30-star general to get them to come around. And no way in hell should you do that for a CFII or ATP either.

Are people threatened by newer members with those kinds of skills, I don't know that's kind of broad range there all of humanity. Personally I'm all for it.

The understatement of the year:

...having all the military experience in the world will do you no good if you expect CAP members to react in the same way.  Managing CAP members has more to do with managing personalities and soft skills than it does with actual real authority.  It is often an entirely different context of leadership. 

Think herding cats...

You think leadership in the military is really about legal authority? I mean you might get some rocks painted that way, but if you really want a good performance from someone then it very much is managing personalities to have that person enthusiastic & committed to the missions you hand them. Leadership is leadership, no amount or lack of legal back up can change that.

[Al Sayre]

Actually, I wasn't referring to legal authority, but to expected reactions.  Most military members are already pretty motivated and committed to the mission, and understand that sometimes nasty things have to be done, and they are paid to do them. 

It seems that with volunteers, everyone wants to do the fun and important stuff, but when the crappy little jobs come around only the committed few show up.  We really have no stick and very few carrots, so you have to be pretty creative to get them to particapate in the whole mission and not just the parts they like.

[TankerT]

You think leadership in the military is really about legal authority? I mean you might get some rocks painted that way, but if you really want a good performance from someone then it very much is managing personalities to have that person enthusiastic & committed to the missions you hand them. Leadership is leadership, no amount or lack of legal back up can change that.

I never said anything about legal authority, although that does come into play.  But, normally, only in the case of bad apples.

I didn't say military leadership has no component of managing personalities and people.  It is a part of it.  But, leadership in the military has several other major factors that come into play that we in CAP don't have. 

Leadership is leadership.  But, as a leader, you need to use the methods and tools you have to fit those you are leading, and your mission.  The common core of experience in the military is much more similiar/structured than in CAP.  Also, the mission is different.  The tools you have in the military at your disposal are often way more vast and comprehensive than in CAP.

I think Al Sayre put it pretty well.  And, I think that shows that why leadership in CAP is pretty much about your ability to use personality and influence. 

[Dragoon]

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate.

I have never quite understood the need to have doctor or lawyer positions in squadron or group org charts.  In about 10 years of CAP service I have never actually seen a Medical or Legal Officer at those levels actually have anything useful to do. 

Now, if CAP and the AF work it out so that CAP doctors, lawyers, etc. can augment AF units then I can see some value. 

Now, I would love to have one of them doctors on a ground team, but never actually seen it happen. 

I'm with you - a squadron medical or health services officer is of limited or no value as a staffer.  The commander simply doesn't have a need for that kind of staff assistance or advice at that level.

On the other hand, having medics on your ground team, or first aid instructors in your unit is a great thing.  But since HSOs aren't required to work on GT, nor teach first aid.....it's one of the many "optional" slots that National thinks we all desperately have to have.  Kind of like Squadron Historian and Squadron Legal officer.  Nice, but not necessary. 

The fact that most squadrons don't have these guys and are still allowed to function speaks voumes as to the utility of these positions.  Now at Wing level, that's another story.

[DNall]

Actually, I wasn't referring to legal authority, but to expected reactions.  Most military members are already pretty motivated and committed to the mission, and understand that sometimes nasty things have to be done, and they are paid to do them. 

It seems that with volunteers, everyone wants to do the fun and important stuff, but when the crappy little jobs come around only the committed few show up.  We really have no stick and very few carrots, so you have to be pretty creative to get them to particapate in the whole mission and not just the parts they like.

No I agree, but obviously people iun the military didn't get motivated to that point w/o a long hard process to crstruct an environment around them & teach/reinforce the concepts over & over... They are that way cause they're made to be that way. They want to do important work more than pump gas, but every now & then someone walks by & says "thanks, you know we couldn't do our job w/o you & good guys die when we're late to work." It's no dif in CAP. You just have to think about inter-personal psychology in teh back of your head all the time.

I'll give you an example. I needed to fill O-flt slots a couple weeks ago & we were on the phone calling cadets. Don't tell them "hey we got O-flights today if you're interested." Say, "you've been doing a good job lately & so we've decided to let you go flying today if you can make it." -OR- "We hadn't seen you in a while, we wanted to see if you'd like to come flying today & talk about getting you out to meetings more consistently." It's not that big a deal, but link the two things in their brain & you get something for nothing.

I think you're selling military leaders short when you say people just follow them cause that's the way things work. I think they actually have to do the same things as us to get peak performance from their people, cause it's basic human nature we're dealing with. I just think they're better at it than we are.

Carrot & stick... yeah I can do that for ya. Couselling to 2B (charges), to civil liability or criminal liability for failing to do your job according to regs/training on a mission - you can't walk up on someone that needs help & un-volunteer, you have a fiduciary duty, just like you do when you join CAP. Other end of the spectrum... like I said, take stuff that's already going on & tell people it's a reward. You know a guy wants to train for aircrew, there's a training session coming up in a couple months, you call him up in a meeting & shake hands tell him he's been selected from a lot of other people in the Wing to attend navigator/oberserver training & you're looking forward to getting him back & putting him in the plane to keep your pilots on their toes, you know he'll do you proud... Come on, it's not that hard, make things seem a little more exclusive than maybe they are. I think Iowa is taking the right path with new members to interview people & make them apply & be selected for training... SDFs do that to & some of them let some pretty retarded people in. CGAux has a stiffer proceedure. It doesn't even have to be changed stadards (tho I wish it was) to make people think they have to earn things & do their duty. Show them how the dots connect from our grunt work to the important stuff - you know the money saved by CAP over the years more than covers the full cost of the F22 program? I know you're a smart guy, you can show people how much their work matters.

[Al Sayre]

Sometimes I tend to oversimplify in my posts due to time, but yes you are 100% correct.  It takes a lot of creativity sometimes and other times its simple. 

One of the first things I did as Commander was go back through the records and give out awards to the people who had earned them and never received them.  A lot of them came back and said thanks and that they are glad that they finally have a commander who gives a crap about what they do...  That kind of stuff is the easy part, but the 2b is still the biggest stick we have in the regular day to day of the Squadron, and in reality it's only a twig.

[DNall]

Okay, let me not undercut the positive side, cause that's where 99.5 % of your magic is made, but let me talk about the stick for a moment.

I have some experience on a national non-profit board of trustees. This is the national organization for a college fraternity, so let me clarify that I mean we had a lot of money invested but we were self insured (meaning a coverage mgmt company, but claims were paid w/ our money not theirs) - by which I mean I have some serious risk/crisis mgmt experience dealing with lawsuits...

Okay anyway, if you wear jeans w/ a CAP polo & crash a plane then they aren't covering you. If you go thru advanced first aid & GTM1, then get to a scene & do NOT perform to the extent of your training, then family can sue the crap out of you & CAP WILL leave you hanging. The fact is the CAP legal exists to protect CAP & if that means leaving you out to dry then they won't even flinch for a second. That's 100% absolute indisputable facts. Now, CAP is a little less cold hearted than our org was, but don't think that'll last no that they stand alone after 2000.

My point being you are individually responsible for your actions & you have a duty to perform to the extent of your training & ability in all cases all the time. Now, can you give that example, then stretch to the statement that "you have agreed to a greater responsibility than regular citizens have, not living up to that agreement can in certain situations send you to prison or have you sued for millions. We protect you, but only when you do your job & follow the rules. Go do your own thing & don't blame me when you get the express train to hell."

You can spell that out w/ civil & even criminal ramifications on a mission, and THEN go on to explain to a person that they "volunteered" to take n this duty as a CAP member, they are free to quit CAP but they are not free to do less than the full extent of their duty. They are required by rules & regs (w/ legal ramifications) to do their job or meet the evil side of me.

Now is this absolute truth? Well, it's a strong interpretation sure, but don't you feel better with member going in like that & you backing it up w/ the real world practical version of the rules? To me, it's all about setting the stage for what you want to happen, not telling people the limits of your authority & being amazed when they test you beyond your ability to respond - for God sake, bluff a little if need be.

I'll leave you with this final quote. My favorite of all time... "Duty then is the sublimest word in the English language; you can never do more, you should never wish to do less." Robert E Lee, senior paper at US Military Academy at West Point.

My second favorite comes from a C/LtCol who I can't even remember his name & I bet he stole it from someone I don't know, but it's profound in a way that needs attention... "Leadership isn't taught, it's caught."

[Al Sayre]

You'll get no argument from me that once someone enters the field on a mission or gets in a CAP aircraft, there are some pretty powerful motivators to follow the rules. 

Where we have a problem is in the day to day running of the squadrons.  Trying to get someone to take on a staff position like Admin, Personnel, Leadership Officer etc.  It seems like no one wants the jobs to start with, then they do them halfway.  When you try to correct an issue you get: "Screw you, if you don't like the way I do it, do it yourself!  I quit."  As I said before in this situation, we effectively have no stick and only a few carrots. 

You can't force them to take a staff position at all, quite a few could care less about professional development.  I've actually been told by one member "Why should I bother with that crap?  What can I do as a Capt. or Major. that I can't do as a 1st Lt?"  I'd guess that close to 60% of the SM's on the books either don't participate at all, or only show up when they feel like it. 

I realize the real solution is targeted recruiting and training of motivated people who really want to be a part of the organization, but those are pretty few and far between (at least in my area).

This is one of the main reasons I really like the Iowa Wing concept, and especially the Reserve Squadron idea.  It gets the dead wood out of the squadrons so the Commanders can stop wasting resources on people who aren't "active".  It reduces the pool of staff candidates to those who really want the job and are willing to commit the time and effort to do it right.   [/rant]

[floridacyclist]

Then you get the other side of the story where someone joins CAP to do ES stuff and gets put into Personnel since he's good with computers (and as a new SM is too dumb to argue). So now he's with Personnel for years on end because nobody else wants to do it, he's good at it, and becomes irreplaceable. He earns his grade the old-fashioned way by working hard and taking tests, yet is supposed to fight for folks to get promoted past him because they went to some school that nobody is even sure is accredited.

In the meantime, he participates in all the training he possibly can and often is the only GTL to show up for missions and exercises or when folks need someone to evaluate and teach. When he asks for reassignment to ES since he's the most qualified and active person in the group and that is what he really wants to do in CAP anyway, he's told that's impossible because he's too good at keeping Personnel and Public Affairs afloat for the rest of the squadron and group.  He reluctantly agrees and continues to do his best because he actually does agree with the importance of Personnel in the overall scheme of things. He knows he can't drop out because he actually does believe in the programs, plus he has kids in and he wants to make it work for them and their friends.

When folks have trouble with ES stuff they come to him for help since there is no effective ES officer, but when he tries to initiate any ES training on his own, he's told that he's stepping on toes and to back off. Ditto for comm even though neither the comm or ES officer ever hesitates to ask him for advice or to fill in when playing CAP is not convenient for them.

No matter how many lifesaving or valor awards he's eligible for and should have probably received, he never gets any because "everyone knows that it's the Personnel Officer's job to initiate paperwork for awards and decorations" and he feels that it's improper to put in awards for himself and even a little wierd doing it for his kids. For similar reasons, he never sees his name in print except as the author of the press releases that he regularly sends to Wing but he's proud to know that the unnamed "Civil Air Patrol Officer" in the story is him and the "Civil Air Patrol Cadets" are his. He smiles, reminds himself that he's not in it for the kudos and carries on.

Eventually he gets tired and burnt out, and while he may keep plugging away in Personnel for as long as his kids are in, once they are gone, so is he.