Special initial appointments for those with infantry skills

Started by RiverAux, December 30, 2006, 03:15:40 AM

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sandman

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 06:15:03 PM
Quote from: sandman on December 31, 2006, 09:52:37 AM
I had my squadron commander not recommend my promotion to captain...I just smiled, said thank you, took my copy of 35-5 section E over his head, and got the promotion. Really irked him too! (he was a Lt. Col.)

Awesome!  Great attitude.  I'm sure that did wonders for your working relationship and the unit's cohesion.

How high, exactly would you go before you stopped?  Wing, Region?

At least I can understand, what with the extra money and respect and all. ???

All I can say is, if you did that to me, from that point forward I would do every thing I could for you - all further promotions, ES paperwork and anything else you needed would be prepared early to make sure it was always submitted timely, and any doors you needed opened, or wheels greased would happen no questions. 

You would always be granted the benefit of the doubt in all aspects of CAP and never held to the letter of the reg.  ::)

Touche on the sarcasm Capt Williams.

Look, let's just get rid of rank altogether. Everybody wears CAP cutouts. Positional authority is the order of the day similar to the ICS system.
Get over it, quit playing military, quit quibbling over rank bling. Then you can focus on the missions of CAP.

...BTW, it actually did good things for unit cohesion, you had to be there. Interesting story....

Go as high as necessary...Aim High is the motto, right?
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

sandman

Quote from: floridacyclist on December 31, 2006, 06:04:30 PM
So now any time your commander says something you don't like you're just supposed to climb over his head and get your way anyway? And this is supposed to be military/professional?

Um...yes.

If your supported by the regs and know what you're doing and your commander doesn't or becomes an impediment to progress or endangers a mission....
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

floridacyclist

Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

lordmonar

Well that may be the root problem in a lot of things that are bad with CAP.

Bad leaders are at every level, but you can't just fire them unless you have a replacement ready.

This is a recurring theme in a lot of our threads.  Inconsistency in promotions, inconsistency in advanced promotions, local squadron, wing and regional uniform policies.

It makes no sense in harping about maintain the regs if national is not going to take the lead.

It also makes no sense to berate members who use their chain of command to get the right thing done.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

floridacyclist

Quote
If your supported by the regs and know what you're doing and your commander doesn't or becomes an impediment to progress or endangers a mission....

Was the only part that I was referring to about him not being a good commander. Having not been there personally or known the CC's reason for denying the promotion, I can't comment on how well he did or didn't handle the situation or how that reflects on his leadership ability.

Having just dealt for months with a member trying to jump through, under, or over any hoops necessary to get a special promotion to Lt Col (after having been brought in initially as a Capt), I guess I'm just a little burnt out on special promotions. Not saying that he's not a good guy and an asset to CAP and all, just not so sure what the big deal is. I mean, is there a pay raise that someone forgot to tell me about? Maybe 2 or 300%?

If someone is that Sierra Hotel to start with, they shouldn't have any trouble breezing through the requirements to earn the grade (and then maybe putting in for a special promotion...MAYBE). If they're not up to that task, maybe they shouldn't get it in the first place.
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

lordmonar

If he meets the requirments for advanced promotion....why hold it back?

If you have a specific reason for not promoting...then good on you....write up an MFR and give it to him when you deny his CAPF2 or use the remarks section in block IX.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Al Sayre

Gotta point out 2 things here:

Sandman is a AD USN LT (0-3) = Capt. and is entitled to hold that rank in CAP as much as any of the hundred's of Lt.Col.'s and other sundry former service types.

Squadron Commanders do not have promotion authority for Capt., that goes to Group or Wing if you don't have Groups.  The SQ/CC can mark it disapproved and make his/her comments, but the LT has every right to forward it up the COC to the person with the promotion authority.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

DNall

Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 04:40:20 AM
Capt Williams, it would seem that as you are exercising your right as a commander as far as promotions, it would also seem if it is a squadron policy, it would be in contravention to the promotion regulation, setting additional requirements as these individuals are not required by the regulation to make.

From CAPR 35-5

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.


There is no requirement for lawyers, doctors, chaplains, educators, and accountants to take AFIADL-13 at anytime during their time in Civil Air Patrol for promotion. I am not saying they shouldn't take it. I think they should but it isn't a requirement unless these individuals choose to pursue the Officer Training Awards
Careful sir. The reg also provides for promotion board to advise the commander on the fitness of this individual (cadet or senior) to assume the next grade. The very nature of that states a high degree of latitude for commanders in determining what makes an individual suitable to assume an advanced grade. I personally think the standand he's a pplyin gis very fair & reasonable. I've also found that just about every single officer that's advanced promoted thru that system & continued forward from there either in grade or significant staff positions has been absolutely terrible. I hate to put that out there like a stereotype, but there's a lot more negative to those promotions than there is positive. This one Sq CC has found a way to mitigate members with an advanced qual & the wrong attitude. That's a good thing & you as an IG should be serving the best interests of CAP by helping him justify those actions under regs rather than pushing well beyond the letter or spirit of the reg in attempting to provide him guidance. Sorry that's harsh, no disrespect, just my couple more cents for the pile.

DNall

Quote from: floridacyclist on December 31, 2006, 06:04:30 PM
That said, I would have no problem with a regulation change allowing special appointments to only substitute for the TIG requirements while still requiring the member to meet all other requirements such as PD standards and AFIADL 13. While I recognize that such appointments are primarily a recruiting/retention tool, I don't think that being allowed to make advanced grade at your own pace rather than having to wait for theTIG requirements would be such a bad incentive and would actually encourage these folks to study and learn about CAP.
That sounds better, but I'm still in favor of cutting WAY back on special appointment promotins, and they should NEVER be used for recruiting/retention. The kind of member you get out of that is very bad for CAP, despite whatever skill they supposedly bring. I've seen that time & time again. I grant that the above req for AFIADL13 or similar is a bit unorthadox, but it's good material that really is critical at the entery level. We try to get members enrolled in it immedeately after Lvl 1. I don't think it's so bad to make them earn their initial grade. It's a stretch of teh reg also, but in attempt to mitigate a hoirrible promotion system that harms CAP. 

dmac

Quote from: DNall on January 01, 2007, 11:05:59 AM
Quote from: dmac on December 31, 2006, 04:40:20 AM
Capt Williams, it would seem that as you are exercising your right as a commander as far as promotions, it would also seem if it is a squadron policy, it would be in contravention to the promotion regulation, setting additional requirements as these individuals are not required by the regulation to make.

From CAPR 35-5

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.


There is no requirement for lawyers, doctors, chaplains, educators, and accountants to take AFIADL-13 at anytime during their time in Civil Air Patrol for promotion. I am not saying they shouldn't take it. I think they should but it isn't a requirement unless these individuals choose to pursue the Officer Training Awards
Careful sir. The reg also provides for promotion board to advise the commander on the fitness of this individual (cadet or senior) to assume the next grade. The very nature of that states a high degree of latitude for commanders in determining what makes an individual suitable to assume an advanced grade. I personally think the standand he's a pplyin gis very fair & reasonable. I've also found that just about every single officer that's advanced promoted thru that system & continued forward from there either in grade or significant staff positions has been absolutely terrible. I hate to put that out there like a stereotype, but there's a lot more negative to those promotions than there is positive. This one Sq CC has found a way to mitigate members with an advanced qual & the wrong attitude. That's a good thing & you as an IG should be serving the best interests of CAP by helping him justify those actions under regs rather than pushing well beyond the letter or spirit of the reg in attempting to provide him guidance. Sorry that's harsh, no disrespect, just my couple more cents for the pile.

DNall, you obviously didn't get my meaning about my response to Capt Williams' requirement for AFIADL 13. I stated in that post that I thought it was admirable what he was trying to do and I agree that someone shouldn't be able to just pay and get promoted. I also said that he as a commander has plenty of tools to prevent a person who isn't up to snuff without contradicting the regulation(like the infamous NYWG promotion policy). Him setting those requirements could be considered a legitimate complaint. He can disapprove recommendations or not recommend a person for promotion. He has those tools available to him as a commander without setting himself up. Is the promotion system broken? It very well maybe, but there are tools to prevent someone getting promoted that doesn't deserve it, and they need to be utilized. Commanders at all levels need to make this happen. I stated in a later post that I know a USAF officer who was submitted for promotion in CAP based on his promotion in the USAF was denied by a region promotion board due to his lack of knowledge about CAP and that was perfectly legitimate. Had the board said that he needed to finish level V, that would have been contrary to the regulation. He was briefed on what he needed to do to rectify the situation, did it, and was resubmitted, met the board and was promoted.

BlueLakes1

Since so much chat has involved requiring AFIADL 013 prior to promotion, I'll ask this. Has anyone actually been getting their tests from AFIADL recently? Since earlier this year, I know of people in both wings I actively participate in who have not gotten their tests after making the proper request. Also, I heard similar stories from folks when I was at RSC this summer, and I didn't go to RSC in my home region, so I'd have to think this is a fairly widespread issue.

Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

arajca


ZigZag911

Quote from: RiverAux on December 30, 2006, 10:47:41 PM
QuoteThe Powers That Were wanted them to sit through classes they had probably taught for the Army.

Well, that was just dumb.  As was pointed out there is no requirement that anyone take a particular class before being tested in any of the ES specialties if they think they can test out of them. 

There are no required courses NOW.

As recently as 6  or 7 years ago, some wings required classes to qualify as GTM or aircrew.

Even now, some wings offer such classes as one route to learning the material required.

The point to the post was to underscore a mindset that has not really gone away entirely.

ZigZag911

Quote from: Eclipse on December 31, 2006, 07:36:57 PM
I have no idea why he was denied, and don't care, if Group CC's are going to go around over-riding Unit CC's decisoin on silliness like advanced grade promotions, they might as well just replace the unit CC, rather than killing his local command authority by over-riding him.

Squadron commanders answer to group commanders, just as group and squadron commanders both answer to wing commanders.

It is, in fact, the group commander's duty to review recommendations for promotion (bear in mind that squadron commanders do not 'promote' directly past 1 Lt) to ensure that CAP regs (spirit as well as letter) are upheld.

If more group commanders did this, you'd have less questionable special appointment promotions.

In fact, in this regard the group CC provides a service to the squadron CC, who may find it difficult convincing a doctor, lawyer, CFI or teacher that he/she can't be promoted because they are not contributing their special skills to CAP.
Let Group CC be the 'bad cop'!

Squadron commanders, in my experience, would prefer that groups provide funding, equipment, and administrative support (that is, process paperwork), and otherwise leave their units alone.

This worked quite well in the Royal Navy of the Napoleonic era....
however, most squadron commanders, dedicated and competent as they are, just don't quite measure up to Jack Aubrey or Horatio Hornblower!!!

sandman

Quote from: Al Sayre on January 01, 2007, 05:46:28 AM
Gotta point out 2 things here:

Sandman is a AD USN LT (0-3) = Capt. and is entitled to hold that rank in CAP as much as any of the hundred's of Lt.Col.'s and other sundry former service types.

Squadron Commanders do not have promotion authority for Capt., that goes to Group or Wing if you don't have Groups.  The SQ/CC can mark it disapproved and make his/her comments, but the LT has every right to forward it up the COC to the person with the promotion authority.

True, but that "fight" took place when I was an Army NCO ;D
MAJ, US Army (Ret)
Major, Civil Air Patrol
Major, 163rd ATKW Support, Joint Medical Command

DNall

Quote from: dmac on January 01, 2007, 11:56:33 AM
DNall, you obviously didn't get my meaning about my response to Capt Williams' requirement for AFIADL 13. I stated in that post that I thought it was admirable what he was trying to do and I agree that someone shouldn't be able to just pay and get promoted. I also said that he as a commander has plenty of tools to prevent a person who isn't up to snuff without contradicting the regulation(like the infamous NYWG promotion policy). Him setting those requirements could be considered a legitimate complaint. He can disapprove recommendations or not recommend a person for promotion. He has those tools available to him as a commander without setting himself up. Is the promotion system broken? It very well maybe, but there are tools to prevent someone getting promoted that doesn't deserve it, and they need to be utilized. Commanders at all levels need to make this happen. I stated in a later post that I know a USAF officer who was submitted for promotion in CAP based on his promotion in the USAF was denied by a region promotion board due to his lack of knowledge about CAP and that was perfectly legitimate. Had the board said that he needed to finish level V, that would have been contrary to the regulation. He was briefed on what he needed to do to rectify the situation, did it, and was resubmitted, met the board and was promoted.
I get what you mean, and that i'ts impropper to create arbitrary requirements eforced as a universal standard. I also understand why the reg says what it does on that issue. I think we're all in agreement that special appointments are heavily abused & some corrective action is necessary that would include modifying the reg.

That said, I too think what he's doing is acommendable. If I were looking at a candidate that's willing to contribute in their field - I don't actually need a medical officer, CFI, hamm operator, A&P, teacher, attorney, or accountant. There may be a broad need in CAP for free use of some of those specialized skills, but not right now in my unit. Do I promote them anyway even though their skill might get used for a few minutes a quarter & nothing any other memebr couldn't do? Do I look at that person & say great you got a these quals but you got no idea about CAP or the military & cannot function at the 1Lt/Capt level w/o some back-training... therefore I've evaluated your personal record & think you need to take oh AFIADL13 or have some prior military experience to get you over the line. As long as that's a case-by-case evaluation & you're not ordering them to take the course but telling them they're deficient & recommending a couple options that would correct it... that sounds on the level to me.

I'm sorry I was rough in saying it. The way I was looking at it, he's gong to get piled on by a lot of members who think these things are supposed to be automatic & it doesn't matter if you ever lift a finger in the specialty area (pencil whipped). I tend to think IGs & other up echelon personnel should look at what's best for CAP & present the interpretation that supports that, rather than an academic argument that may limit good things or encourage disention. I appreciate what you're saying about working inside the reg & avoiding trouble though. I just don't know if you blast that houskeeping detail to the world the way you might on the supportive side of the coin.

Dragoon

Let me add a vote to the "no more special appointments" crowd.

Honestly, everyone thinks the key to fixing CAP is give almost everyone railroad tracks as they come in the door.

This kind of inflation just helps make grade more meaningless than it is already.

I would absolutely agree that infantry skills can be of great value on ground teams (and truthfully, my cav scout training helped a whole lot with aerial navigation as well).

But, any skilled person who doesn't welcome a chance to demonstrate their skills to an appropriate evaluator is, IMHO, an ego problem waiting to happen.

If I had a special forces/ranger/pathfinder guy walk through the door, I'd tell him that, if he was interested, I'd sit him down with the GT handbook and review it, and then set him up with an evaluator at the next SAR to get as many checkoffs as his skills warranted.

ZigZag911

Quote from: Dragoon on January 02, 2007, 11:32:59 AM

If I had a special forces/ranger/pathfinder guy walk through the door, I'd tell him that, if he was interested, I'd sit him down with the GT handbook and review it, and then set him up with an evaluator at the next SAR to get as many checkoffs as his skills warranted.

A sound, reasonable approach.

RiverAux

Yes, that is how we're supposed to do things but it doesn't directly relate to the question at hand.  Should we give that Ranger a higher initial grade in recognition of his skills?

How about for my proposed infantry skill advanced grade and for all the other mission-related special appointments (that they do not get the promotion until they become qualified in the skill they have?

For example, for my Ranger he comes in as a Senior Member but after passing Level 1 and CPPT and upon becoming a qualified Ground Team Member he gets promoted to X rank.  Or, pilots joining CAP go through Level 1 and CPPT and get promoted to x rank after becoming a qualified Mission Pilot/Cadet O-ride pilot, etc? 

This would link the supposed skill they are bringing to CAP with the actual achievement of the ability to perform that skill in CAP.

Not sure how to extend it to the professional appointments (AEM,DR, lawyer). 

arajca

Medical (EMT, Nurse, Dr, etc), Lawyer would get the promotion after completing Level I/CPPT and taking on the duties and being assigned as Health Services/Medical/Nurse Officer or Legal Officer as appropriate. Grade is temporary for a period of two or three years during which time if they leave the position, they revert to the grade appropriate for their PD level.

If you're going to open the Ranger/Infantry can of worms, what about local SAR team personnel who have NASAR ratings?