Aircraft and Squadrons

[flyguy06]

Why do people thing or say that CAP aircraft are assigned to "their" squadron? Squadrons do not have aircraft assigned to them. Aircraft are for anyone in the WIng to use. I can fly any aircraft in my state. I dont need to get perission from a particular Squadron Commander. Its just that some airplanes "happen" to be stationed at the same location as a squadron is based. That does not mean the aircraft belongs to that squadron. If that were the case, a lot of units dont meet on an airport.  For example, my squadron meets at a church. Does that mean we will never hae an aircraft? Of course not.

[Eclipse]

Because people are poorly informed, or looking to insinuate a level of authority, ownership, or exclusivity to a given resource.

Its also an old-school mentality.

In some cases it is defacto-true, despite the regs. POC's sometimes think they "own" the planes and can dictate who can fly it.

I clarified this as my first priority when I took over Palwaukee - the aircraft is a wing asset, who's POC happens to be a member (now former).  While I'll do everything reasonable to maintain the relationship with the airport  (they are great to CAP), I have no authority (or responsibility) for the aircraft.

With that said, having one assigned to the same airport  is, no question, a powerful recruiting tool, both internally and externally.

[SJFedor]

Because typically the Wing will assign an aircraft to an airport with a squadron there. Typically, the aircraft will have an OIC from that squadron that will monitor the books/times on it, and let the group/wing LGM know that the aircraft needs an oil change/100 hour/new tires/prop replacement. Wings tend to practice that the aircraft will be located wherever it's getting flight time on it. Usually thats at an airport with a unit at it with a few pilots.

You're right, you can operate any aircraft in the wing, and don't need some SQ/CC's permission to do so, unless there's a higher standing Wing/Group/Unit level SOP that needs to be followed. My old unit had 3 aircraft based at the airport, and we didn't have to get blessings from anyone other then the FRO, but we were expected to reserve the aircraft via calling service, as well as sign the aircraft out in the logbook at the unit, with the expected time of return and route, that way, if a SAR mission got spun up, it'd be easier to locate the assets, know which ones can be used and when, and moreso, help us start the search of one of our (CAP) aircraft goes missing.

[arajca]

It depends on the wing. In CO, my old unit "owns" two a/c and manages a third. They are responsible for getting the maintenance performed as needed, providing cleaning supplies, submitting the a/c reports, etc. HOWEVER, any CAP pilot can reserve the a/c within the unit's designated priorities - REDCAP, SAREX, O-Flights, ES Training, Proficiency. in that order. The only reason they only manage one instead of "owning" it is because the a/c is located at the local AFB, which doesn't have a CAP squadron on it.

The a/c are assigned to the unit, not the airport.

[lordmonar]

Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.

[Hotel 179]

Why do people thing or say that CAP aircraft are assigned to "their" squadron? Squadrons do not have aircraft assigned to them. Aircraft are for anyone in the WIng to use. I can fly any aircraft in my state. I dont need to get perission from a particular Squadron Commander.

I've signed a CAPF 37 and promise to take good care of it....If you go bee-bopping up to an FBO to rent a plane, you are going to jump through some hoops.  If you come to us and say, "I AM going to fly THAT plance" I'll make every effort to get you into the aircraft and turn all the av-gas into noise that you can afford.

For years, all of the pilots in our squadron has committed to pay a fee that covers hangar rent...we know the little oddities about the aircraft and have a corporate memory of when little things broke and were fixed....for all practical purposes, it's our airplane.  It is registered to the CAP, but we feed it, burp it, and change its diaper.  As far as assigning it to an airport, we have several airports in the area and the plane has lived at different places over the years.

Come to see us, fly the plane....the beach is beautiful this time of year.

semper vi,

[Pylon]

Squadrons never "own" corporate property or money, but I don't think that's what people mean when they speak about "their squadron's plane."    A pilot in the Air Force may refer to "my plane" as well, but nobody misconstrues this to mean that the pilot actually believes that aircraft belongs to that pilot, or even to that squadron.  It belongs to the organization.

We all know (for the most part) that CAP aircraft are bought by the Air Force, owned by CAP, and assigned to a Wing.  Where the Wing HQ places the aircraft is a matter of their discretion, but I will say this:

When an aircraft is placed in a particular location by the Wing HQ it is assigned to, if there is a unit at that airport, that unit tends to "take ownership" of the aircraft.  I think that's great.  It doesn't mean that the unit thinks the aircraft really does belong to Podunk Composite Squadron, nor does it mean they think other units can't use it.   

What it means, in my experience, is that members of that unit tend to take good care of the aircraft.  They ensure it's washed real clean, that the bugs are polished off with care, that the maintenance requests are in timely, and that every last detail of the aircraft is taken care of.    That's what happens at my squadron.  There is an aircraft Wing placed at our airport.  We maintain the hangar inside, we make sure that airframe is spotless, and we take care of it because we're right there.  People from other units may use the aircraft all the time, but we're at the airport regularly and can make sure that the hangar is swept, that there are extra flight suits in the locker, that the charts on the wall are current, that the wing's leading edge is clean, etc.

A lot of people even refer to "my car" when they really mean "my bank's car" or "my lending institution's car of which I have legal use so long as I keep up my payments."    We don't correct them, either.  Don't get hung up on the dictionary definition of the wording people use when they say "their plane."   Do get hung up if their behavior indicates they don't understand the arrangement, though.

[Eclipse]

When an aircraft is placed in a particular location by the Wing HQ it is assigned to, if there is a unit at that airport, that unit tends to "take ownership" of the aircraft.  I think that's great.  It doesn't mean that the unit thinks the aircraft really does belong to Podunk Composite Squadron, nor does it mean they think other units can't use it.   

Unforuntately, for many POC's, especially ones who are also unit CC's, it means exactly that.

Its not right, but it happens all the time.

[Hawk200]

When an aircraft is placed in a particular location by the Wing HQ it is assigned to, if there is a unit at that airport, that unit tends to "take ownership" of the aircraft.  I think that's great.  It doesn't mean that the unit thinks the aircraft really does belong to Podunk Composite Squadron, nor does it mean they think other units can't use it.   

Unforuntately, for many POC's, especially ones who are also unit CC's, it means exactly that.

Its not right, but it happens all the time.

In all fairness, a Unit CC probably wouldn't be inclined to just hand the keys to someone he doesn't know (or hasn't even heard of). Some people may think of that as them thinking they own it, but it may be a simple example of good stewardship.

[ctrossen]

As others have pointed out, it depends upon the individual wing. Some wings retain almost complete control of the aircraft, while others assign a specific aircraft to a particular unit.

The latter is what we do in Wisconsin.

The unit of assignment takes possession of it's aircraft via a CAPF 37A and has complete responsibility for that aircraft--maintenance, hangaring, scheduling, etc. They each have their own aircraft maintenance fund, which they use to maintain the airframe. The Wing Maintenance Officer really only coordinates major repairs or upgrades, serving (generally) as the middleman between NHQ and the units.

Probably the biggest benefit to this approach is the "sense of ownership." It's not a "rental" to the local unit. They treat it like it is their own. They also know that if they don't meet the 200 hour minimum, or they begin to lose their support mechanism, they will risk losing the aircraft.

(Apart from airframes that have been down for lengthy periods due to maintenance, Wisconsin rarely has problems putting 200 hours on each aircraft, with the average of nearly 250 hour per aircraft over the past two years.)

Now on the down side, I can see how a local unit might be less than amenable to an "outsider" flying their aircraft, but frankly I haven't seen that around here for many, many years. That said, at least in my area, the Flight Release Officers are going to make sure you are well qualified before releasing the aircraft to you if you're not one of the regular pilots and they don't know you.

The biggest downside I can see, though, is that the local pilots might begin treating the aircraft a little too much like their own. They get to know the quirks a little too well and get complacent. "That VOR or Comm doesn't work, so we don't use it, and since we don't use it, we don't need to fix it." Or worse. And when you don't have other pilots flying it regularly, you don't find out about it until it's too late.

[bosshawk]

Chris: CAWG does things pretty much as you have described to Wisconsin.  With 26 aircraft and a state that is 800 miles from north to south, there is no way that Wing can deal with all of the day to day stuff involved in managing an aircraft.  Our planes are assigned to a Sq for operations, care and maintenance.  That said, any pilot possessing the proper qualifications is welcome to fly any aircraft.  He/she must schedule it with WMU or MIMS or whatever computer system happens to be in favor: can't simply show up to fly.

Works well for us.

[RocketPropelled]

If you come to us and say, "I AM going to fly THAT plane" I'll make every effort to get you into the aircraft and turn all the av-gas into noise that you can afford.

That sounds about right, and you've done a fine job of it!

Come to see us, fly the plane....the beach is beautiful this time of year.

Been there, done that, had a great time.  Y'all have a sweet plane, a great hangar, and always a fine example of Southern hospitality!

He's not kidding.

[flyguy06]

Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.

And so what are those of us that dont meet on an airport or near an aircraft supposed to do?

[ELTHunter]

Yes, it's true that the aircraft are "assigned" at Wing level.  However, depending on how your Wing does things, the Wing may delegate responsibility and accoutability for for aircraft to a subordinate unit.  A Wing may base aircraft in each Group in the Wing, and then expect the Group Staff to handle the paperwork and flight releases for those various aircraft based in their Group AO.

In this example, the aircraft isn't assigned to the Group formally and on paper, but the Wing CC may have made it clear to the Group CC's that they are responsible for the plane getting scheduled maintenance, maintaining target usage, etc.  In this case, you would expect the Group CC or his Operations/Maintenance Officers to feel a bit of "ownership" in the plane, and if they are accountable for knowing whats is going on with it, to also feel they need to be aware of where it is and who is flying it.

[arajca]

Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.

And so what are those of us that dont meet on an airport or near an aircraft supposed to do?

Find out where the nearest CAP a/c is and talk to the FRO or crew chief. They'll have the information on how to reserve/use their a/c.

[Major Carrales]

Hummmm.... (pardon the upcoming work of fiction.  It may or may not be correct, that is part of the equasion)

Have at it...

Senario:  Squadron Commander Capt I. Mencharge, CAP wrapped up a flying activity in a very productive weekend where pilots paid for proficiency with their own money in a sort of MOCK SARex.  Pilots came from neighboring units throught the GROUP and it was good.  Capt Mencharge barred no one and everyone left happy stopping to break bread before heading home.   (A Walgreen's moment in CAP)

Next weekend some of the units aviators gather at the hangar for a sort of Makeshift Scanner/Observer School when, low and behold, an automobile drives up and Lt Col Issie Unknownman steps out with a flight suit and a service cap and wants to take the aircraft up.

Lt Col Unknownman is from another Group, is unfamiliar to the units OFFICERS, FRO and Commander.  The FRO takes a break from the instruction, while Capt Mencharge address the Field Grade officer who has just arrived, and calls the Group Commander who doesn't know this guy either recalling only a reputation of sometime back.

The Lt Col's "paperwork" seems to be in order but on cannot log into MIMS...all there is at the site is a recent printout.  

Do you let the Lt Col fly?  What would you do?  What is the correct thing to do?  YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

[RiverAux]

Well if the plane was scheduled for the school I'd tell him to take a hike.  He should have called the FRO ahead of time and asked to make a reservation.

[RocketPropelled]

Yeah, that's kind of an unlikely hypothetical.

Questions To Ask:

1) Who scheduled the airplane first?
2) For what purpose?  If the airplane's booked for no-kidding training, the pilot who wants a proficiency hop can take a hike until the airplane's free.

Every wing/group/squadron, etc, has its own reservation system. FLWG uses FlightSchedulePro online, and it works pretty well.  I think CAPNHQ bought a bunch of licenses, I'd expect FSP to receive a national rollout at some point.

Some squadrons are pretty informal about booking their aircraft. I'd assume that among a bunch of theoretically responsible adults, someone can hammer out a result everyone's happy with.

And speaking as a supposedly theoretically responsible adult, if I have an airplane booked for a flight, and someone tries to bump me for the same flight type (proficiency, for example) by flashing a shinier rank insignia at me, it's an ineffective tactic at best, and insulting at worst. As I often say, "good luck with that."

[Major Carrales]

Yeah, that's kind of an unlikely hypothetical.

Questions To Ask:

1) Who scheduled the airplane first?
2) For what purpose?  If the airplane's booked for no-kidding training, the pilot who wants a proficiency hop can take a hike until the airplane's free.

Every wing/group/squadron, etc, has its own reservation system. FLWG uses FlightSchedulePro online, and it works pretty well.  I think CAPNHQ bought a bunch of licenses, I'd expect FSP to receive a national rollout at some point.

Some squadrons are pretty informal about booking their aircraft. I'd assume that among a bunch of theoretically responsible adults, someone can hammer out a result everyone's happy with.

And speaking as a supposedly theoretically responsible adult, if I have an airplane booked for a flight, and someone tries to bump me for the same flight type (proficiency, for example) by flashing a shinier rank insignia at me, it's an ineffective tactic at best, and insulting at worst. As I often say, "good luck with that."

Remember, the Scanner/Observer training is only "somewhat organized."  Like the Squadron Commander or Air OPS officer said... "We did pretty good last week, lets see if we can hammer out some SQTR quals and do some flying to hammer it home."

I'm sure that they could reach a concensus.

Adding a few elements to this...

1) Suppose the Squadron Commander refuses the Lt Col on the grounds that no one can "vouch for him?" 
2) Or suppose the FRO has a huntch or the like and refuses to release the aircraft?
3) Suppose the Lt Col makes a call to Wing and threatens to have the plane reassigned since he "drove all that way" and was turned down by a Capt and a 1st Lt?

In anycase, the "flashing of rank" is a totally incredulous practice in CAP.  While I respect most greatly the rank of those more advanced in the program, I don't think getting to Level V is a blank check to throw weight aroung.  What's more, since the CAP rank structure is based on progress through a program and not a true hierachy as in the military...it smacks of "poser-pretenderism!"  Most distasteful...

[MattPHS2002]

If it where me (and that is hypothetical at best cause I stay pretty far away from the air side of the house) I'd tell the guy to take a walk mainly because if you can't access his up to date info on MIMS, WMU, whatever it is we'll be using next week then you have no way to verify his membership is A)current and/or B) not under suspension. That goes for his pilots license as well.

[RocketPropelled]

Remember, the Scanner/Observer training is only "somewhat organized."  Like the Squadron Commander or Air OPS officer said... "We did pretty good last week, lets see if we can hammer out some SQTR quals and do some flying to hammer it home."

I'm sure that they could reach a concensus.

You're kind of ignoring my point, which is -- who reserved the plane?

No matter how "somewhat organized" the event is, it's SOMEONE'S responsibility to reserve the aircraft and get an FRO to release the flight. That "someone" is, at the very least, the PIC for the training flight(s).

If you have a bunch of people that show up at the airport for an impromptu "training session" and didn't consult anyone as to the availability of the airplane, it's their own problem, and they should get their act together.

I travel across the Southeast for work. A lot. All the time, in fact.  So if I want access to an airplane for proficiency, each wing/group/squadron has procedures. I start shaking trees until some friendly helper lets me know the procedures, and I clear it with them.

Am I reg-bound to do so? Not necessarily. As long as the Wing Commander (or Wing Stan/Eval types) have approved me to fly the Wing's airframes, I can do so -- but out of courtesy, respect, cooperation, and plain good manners, I'd try to check in with the local people who probably hold the keys to the airplane.

If I rolled up to the local FBO where the nearest CAP plane was tied down, I'd fully expect to be told to pound sand unless I'd made previous arrangements with the appropriate people.  That's just courtesy, folks. 

Whether I'm shown in MIMS or not is another issue -- my MIMS info was held up until I could get a long-distance approval from someone on my new medical.  Would I be legal to fly? According to the FAA, sure -- but at some point, the MIMS approval issue needs to be tempered with common sense. If it shows "task expired" on my medical in MIMS, my info won't show up there -- even if I show the local FRO and SQ/CC the real live medical in my hand.

I chose to wait until my medical cleared MIMS to fly, for instance.

You're cramming several unlikely scenarios into one. We're trying to tell you as pilots what will happen in those situations.

If you want to "what if", it'll go a long way past the guidance in 60-1, and plenty deep into local procedures -- most of which aren't posted where new pilots can read and digest them.

Consult your wing/group DO for clarification, if you're that concerned about it.

[Major Carrales]

 I detect a bit of vitriol in your post...the bold face text, your pointing out that you (plural, by the way) "as pilots" and your reference for me to look to my WING DO as if this is a real life situation.

The purpose of this example is to solicit opinions for discussion.  So that some might learn from a more global view of CAP.  Many of us tend to not look beyond the horizon that is our group.

Things go bad in Civil Air Patrol, when people do not think about things before hand.  There are several things in this example at play...

1) A Local Squadron Commander- Some people here have a problem with a Squadron Commander "refusing the keys."  I suspect that is the point of the original premise in this thread that "squadrons do not own aircraft."  I'm sure there have been many SQUADRON and GROUP commanders that have exercized their policy more in line with a "feudal lord unto their vassals."

That is deplorable and is a practice that must stop.

However, there are likely times when a Squadron Commander has to with hold the keys.

2) A high ranking CAP Officer shopping around for fly time/pulling rank-   I find it strange that no one questions the motives of the Lt Col that suddenly appears.  I assume it could be for several good reasons that a CAP Lt Col would drive out of their area and seek to fly.  It could be a WING staffer trying to see what goes on at a local level.  It could be that aircraft are down in the Lt Col's part of the WING and, due to free time and some money, the Pilot wants to fly.  It could even be that this CAP Officer wants to get to know other people across the WING in event he is ever deployed there.

I can also think of more sinister reasons why this person might be there.  Could be playing politics, or circumnavigating some policy in their own field of influence.  Could be a GROUP/WING staffer with some vendeta against the FRO or CC of that unit.

3) CAP Procedures- You are correct in calling the procedure into question.  Suppose it was an impromtu activity.  Did the FRO know what was what.  Suppose the Squadron Commander/FRO simply let the guy into the aircraft and it turned out this guy was barred from flying.  Suppose the Lt Col crashes the aircraft.


On to the situation itself...

The situation is totally hypothetical.  Even though, we can assume several things mus happen...

1) Any flying being done at the "somewhat organized" activity would be cleared by a flight release officer IAW 60-1.  Plus, the FRO is present.

2) If some CAP officer no one has ever heard of shows up to a airport and demands flying...they will at least be "suspect."

I travel across the Southeast for work. A lot. All the time, in fact.  So if I want access to an airplane for proficiency, each wing/group/squadron has procedures. I start shaking trees until some friendly helper lets me know the procedures, and I clear it with them.

It is obvious that the Lt Col in this example did not do so, but rather showed up expecting for some squadron commander to let him fly.    Maybe even as a test.  Who knows?  That is a worthy area of discussion.

Whether I'm shown in MIMS or not is another issue -- my MIMS info was held up until I could get a long-distance approval from someone on my new medical.  Would I be legal to fly? According to the FAA, sure -- but at some point, the MIMS approval issue needs to be tempered with common sense. If it shows "task expired" on my medical in MIMS, my info won't show up there -- even if I show the local FRO and SQ/CC the real live medical in my hand.

The validity of MIMS data is also in question.  If one goes by the idea the MIMS is "canon law" then an FRO is duty bound to go by the findings therein.  Another worthy topic.

You're cramming several unlikely scenarios into one. We're trying to tell you as pilots what will happen in those situations.

If you want to "what if", it'll go a long way past the guidance in 60-1, and plenty deep into local procedures -- most of which aren't posted where new pilots can read and digest them.

Consult your wing/group DO for clarification, if you're that concerned about it.

Unlikely senarios have a tendency to actually occur.  Because of that the excremental intesertion to the blades of the fan is far splattering...in plain non Vulcan English, it messes us up.

Here is a clincher, much of this local policy is not standard.  Should we be working to make it so...a last worthy point.

[Hotel 179]

The Lt Col's "paperwork" seems to be in order but on cannot log into MIMS...all there is at the site is a recent printout.  

Do you let the Lt Col fly?  What would you do?  What is the correct thing to do?  YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

Well, there you have it....his paperwork is in order, nuff said.  Next problem, he ain't got no keys.  I have keys, all my pilots have keys, anyone who can produce the paperwork IAW CAPR60-1 will be provided a key...and will have a hop around the patch with a check pilot.

I would let the gent know that we were having a session and invite him to participate in the training.  If he's really interested in CAP, I'm sure that he will spend some time helping us out by sharing his knowledge and experience.  Besides, the regs prohibit him from using the aircraft for his own benefit so he has no place to be at any time in particular.  If it's a self-conducted proficiency flight I'm sure that he wouldn't mind one of my pilots riding along as a safety pilot....especially since he may not be familiar with local procedures.

We live in the extreme southern end of Alabama...the Florida line is 10 miles away.  By going through channels of communication we regularly train and perform missions across State lines.  We have even executed missions with a combined crew, sometimes in "theirs" other times "ours".....

You can do a lot in this world just by saying "please." 

Semper vi, ya'll.....

[Major Carrales]

The Lt Col's "paperwork" seems to be in order but on cannot log into MIMS...all there is at the site is a recent printout.  

Do you let the Lt Col fly?  What would you do?  What is the correct thing to do?  YOU MAKE THE CALL!!!

Well, there you have it....his paperwork is in order, nuff said.  Next problem, he ain't got no keys.  I have keys, all my pilots have keys, anyone who can produce the paperwork IAW CAPR60-1 will be provided a key...and will have a hop around the patch with a check pilot.

I would let the gent know that we were having a session and invite him to participate in the training.  If he's really interested in CAP, I'm sure that he will spend some time helping us out by sharing his knowledge and experience.  Besides, the regs prohibit him from using the aircraft for his own benefit so he has no place to be at any time in particular.  If it's a self-conducted proficiency flight I'm sure that he wouldn't mind one of my pilots riding along as a safety pilot....especially since he may not be familiar with local procedures.

We live in the extreme southern end of Alabama...the Florida line is 10 miles away.  By going through channels of communication we regularly train and perform missions across State lines.  We have even executed missions with a combined crew, sometimes in "theirs" other times "ours".....

You can do a lot in this world just by saying "please." 

Semper vi, ya'll.....

Thank you. Good call.  RocketPropelled had mentioned a reasonable solution.  This would seem to outline one such example.

Thank you,
Major Carrales

[RocketPropelled]

I detect a bit of vitriol in your post...the bold face text, your pointing out that you (plural, by the way) "as pilots" and your reference for me to look to my WING DO as if this is a real life situation.

If I ever get vitriolic, there will be no doubt about it.  If you have actual questions about resolving conflicts, (and I sense you do, since you're probing for discussion and follow-up on your hypothetical situation) you shouldn't hesitate to contact the folks at the tip of that particular spear -- especially since you seem to take offense at having other posters (or maybe just me) address them.

That said, if you're offended by the "as pilots" reference, you shouldn't be -- I pointed it out because (and I'll make an "I statement," keeping it singular) I've had to deal with several of the issues.  When they come up, you work with other people to solve them.  Our regulatory guidance is fairly straightforward, but it certainly doesn't address every potential event at every echelon.

As far as your hypothetical, as a colleague used to advise me in times of constructive criticism, "Perhaps you should ask a better question."

As a CAP pilot, if you are in the training or proficiency pipeline (and that excludes your possible Wing staffers or these mystically empowered Random Officers you hypothesized), you already know you shouldn't just walk up to a random airplane and demand the keys.  And if you don't check out in MIMS, and your paperwork is in disarray, and you haven't touched base with anyone in the area, someone's probably not going to let you fly solo PIC.  Anyone who tries the "don't you know who I am" stuff automatically raises a red flag, and someone with the keys should act accordingly -- and usually this can be resolved with a couple of phone calls.  Or a big production of showing them their own CAPID and driver's license, and asking the person if there's someone at home they can call to help them cure their amnesia. Whichever.

All local procedures are different. That's why we do fam flights and such in each location (or I try to, anyway).  You work with the folks in the area to familiarize yourself with the local (read Wing, Group, Squadron) rules, regulations, and policies.

Often squadron commanders are reticent to hand over the keys for very good reasons -- you'll note that 60-1 doesn't specify financial procedures for proficiency flight hours.  Wing supplements can specify the amount per hour, but local procedures establish how the checks are written, whom they're dropped off with, et cetera.  And if the SQ/CC doesn't know you from anyone, how should they trust that you're going to write a good check? It's a serious issue in some places.  But some folks want to see the worst -- the "feudal lord" issue, for instance -- instead of noting that if someone has signed for the airplane, they have a vested interest in making sure you're good to go before taking it up.  It's less a "feudal lord" issue, and more of a "I had to sign for this airplane, I need to know you're not going to break it" issue.

The purpose of this example is to solicit opinions for discussion.  So that some might learn from a more global view of CAP.  Many of us tend to not look beyond the horizon that is our group.

The discussion is being addressed, though I'm not sure it's provoking the topics you wanted. 

If a Wing staffer comes up and wants to use the plane, that's one situation -- you let the FRO do it, since that's part of their gig. 

If a random Mystery Officer of Uncertain Intent rolls up and demands the keys, then you follow up accordingly, using one's common sense and knowledge of the regulations.  You can't know someone's sinister plans (I mean, the dead-giveaway Snidely Whiplash mustache is well out of AF-standards, in which case they really shouldn't be wearing a green zoombag...), especially in the case of a random hypothetical. I'd imagine a courtesy phone call could explain many of these mysteries you want to discuss, and suss out what's actually going on.

During my initial contacts for flying with another wing, I explained my work travel situation, and that wing's staffers took the liberty of looking me up in MIMS.  I was perfectly okay with that -- I expected them to do so.  That's how we discovered my medical hadn't been "approved" yet by my wing of membership.  So I didn't show up in the system -- and I certainly didn't expect to be allowed to fly, and I certainly didn't press the point.  That's how the system is supposed to work.  Once everything was squared away in the system, we pressed forward.  I showed up with all my paperwork in order, did my questionnaire, filled out more paper, passed my checkride with the new wing, and moved forward.

If you actually want to know about local procedures, ask your chain of command in Texas.  They can also tell you the "why" portion, and explain to you how their system works.  That's where I'd start asking questions, because I've had to do it myself.  For the record, I'm mightily impressed with the Baldwin County squadron in Alabama Wing. They've got their stuff together in bringing pilots up to speed -- so not only do I try to say "please," I'm also not shy about saying "thank you."  Captain Pearce runs a high-speed program down there, as far as I'm concerned.

You could also start flying with some folks, if you're not doing so already, and get some serious hands-on experience with your specific procedures.  I think you'll find many of your questions answered by actually dealing with them.  I'm not sure where you get that all local procedures should be standardized, if you're not familiar with them in your own backyard.  I think you'll discover that they're standard for a reason, and with staff approval. They're not written in stone, and can be changed if they're unreasonable or untenable.

Our regs, as written, are for the purpose of flight management and safety, not for having a common scheduling system or key storage procedure in every airplane in the nation.  I think the scheduling issue is being worked on, and it would certainly create some efficiencies the the system.  But like I said, you can't write every possible scenario into the system -- sooner or later, you must depend on someone's judgement.

We have a system of checks and balances, from the MIMS database to the flight release procedure to the actual handling of keys to the airplane.  Mistakes will be made in judgement, but for the most part, we're professionals out here, and we'll do the right things.

And if not, there are ways to handle the situation. Chain of command, et cetera.  You can tabletop or hypothesize all night long, and drive yourself to the point of hair-pulling, but it probably wouldn't get you closer to clarity.  Ask questions of the folks who handle that sort of thing -- some of us are even trying to help you.

[Hotel 179]

Thank you. Good call.  RocketPropelled had mentioned a reasonable solution.  This would seem to outline one such example.

Thank you,
Major Carrales

You are very welcome.....RocketPropelled is one of the folks that I know who can speak to the situation of flying away from home....He showed up on our doorstep, away from home during the holidays...he was pityful...what could we do but take him in and make him one of our own for the short time that he'd be here....you ought to see the stuff he has in his go-bag...talk about you bells and whistles!

After an extensive check-ride with Hans, we taught him the secret handshake...heck, I even flew an hour to meet him across the bay just to save him a drive to our airport.  We wrung it out for a couple of hours then sat in the FBO with a bunch of Navy flyers and swapped stories of the old days around Pensacola, the Cradle of Naval Aviation.

Now, here's the invitation:  Plan a trip to visit the Naval Aviation Museum onboard NAS Pensacola and then come to KJKA and fly with us.  If you are here during the Summer months, I'll get you a slot during the Sundown Patrol.  If you need a mission for your SQTR we'll hook you up.

Semper vi,

Quote tags - MIKE

[Major Carrales]

RocketPropelled,

I thank you for your comments.  They are being quite helpful in my global understanding of how this all works.  If I seem offensive, I appologize.  One has to be careful in how they present questions here.

I suffer, at present, from the overwhelming condition of trying to look at the big picture.  I have read all the regs, I have participated in the activities and I find I am wanting to know more.  However, there are some here who try to turn every honest to goodness question into the "Burr-Hamilton Duel" or worse, the "Gun Fight at the OK Corral."  Thus, I sometimes read into comments the tenor of the last discussion.  A fault on my part I plan to correct.

I thrive on discussion, it allows me to grasp the greater concepts.  I, unlike many here, have no problem when a discussion begins to take an unexpected turn.  Conversation is fluidic...thus, from your last post I have gained a greater understanding based on your wisdom in the matter.  I ask open ended questions on far fethced senarios so that I might learn from the reactions of other CAPTALKERS, a nationwide lexicon.  That, some day when I am in a situation of similar tenor and circumstance I can call upon what I have learned from you and others.

For that I am thankful.  Your posts always provide me with understanding.

Major Carrales

[DNall]

Personally I would rather have squadrons "own" the aircraft and deal with the scheduling problems then everyone treating the planes as rented mules.

When a squadron takes "ownership" of a plane, they take better care of it than if it is just any ole plane.

The USAF has known this for years...that is why the assign planes to pilots and crew chiefs.  Because the "own" the planes they will take pride in it.

I got no problem with a squadron taking ownership of their assigned aircraft.

Good point!

[Al Sayre]

I've actually had a stranger (one of them Yankee fellers from Wisconsin or Michigan somewhere up north ) show up with paperwork and want to fly the aircraft based with our Squadron.  Since I'm not a check pilot, and I didn't know him from Adam, I whipped out the handy dandy telephone list of Wing Officers and called the Wing DO.  Told him the deal, and put the dude on the phone.  They talked for a few minutes, and the DO set him up for a local check ride etc. no big deal...  I guess the key is keep your phone list handy and pass the problem up the chain of command, let the DO make the call - that's what he's there for...