Helicopter Operations in CAP

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Having been Army Air Assault, I have an extensive history in helicopter operations, from setup an LZ to signaling for landing and takeoff, and rappelling and fast roping (I know of no use in CAP). However, I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with helicopter Operations in CAP. If so, other than the training for the task, please let me know so that I can learn from your experience. I am yet to encounter anyone with experience with CAP helicopter operations assisting outside agencies. Also I am not looking for blood and organ transfer. Thank you.

[Larry Mangum]

The only helicopter ops we have in CAP, is the preparation of LZ's and guiding the helio in.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The only helicopter ops we have in CAP, is the preparation of LZ's and guiding the helio in.

Right, that is what I am wanting to know about, has anyone actually been involved with helicopter operations in CAP?
Were you easily accepted by the helicopter crew?
Did the pilot respond to your signals?
What methods have you used to mark the LZ? (VS17 pannels, smoke, other)
How was the experience overall?

[Flying Pig]

CAP would freak out if any of they members ever got near a helicopter.  I dont think CAP members can even ride in them except in an emergency.  Honestly, any operator CAP would work with would proabably have their own ground support and wouldnt rely on anyone on the ground they werent familiar with to do anything.  The couple times Ive had a signaller waving their arms telling me to land, they are usually standing right where I want to go!  I have plenty of experience assisting with helicopter operations, but not in a CAP capacity.
With me and the guys I fly with, once the LZ is clear, get out of the way.  I dont need anyone waving their arms telling me where they think I should land.  Im not even watching the signaller, other than making sure Im not going to run into them.  You basically another obstacle I have to watch.

[NIN]

I have been trained in (as in "got a nice certificate!") helicopter LZ ops by an aeromedical outfit back when I was in the National Guard. While I was taking 67Y school, the USAR warrant officer supervising the course was an aeromedical pilot and he ran us thru the training they give to local emergency responders so they know how to setup to receive one of their choppers.

I also learned the "Army standard" for setting up LZs (like I'm sure you learned in dope-on-a-rope school) on Active Duty and setup more than my fair share of LZs, PZs and external load hookup areas.

I have taught both methods to ground team members over the years, but in CAP I've only ever had to setup an improvised helicopter LZ once (it was for a National Guard UH-1 during the MI Wing SAR Academy in 1990).

(Fun aside: We'd arranged for this UH-1 to come visit the SAR Academy from Cp Grayling, but due to the training schedule, it would have been right at the start of the gigantic 3-day FTX/compass course.  We did some creative class juggling, got part of the compass course reset to include the eventual LZ as one of the points, and then timed things out to have the ground teams arrive at the LZ 45-60 minutes before the aircraft was intended to arrive, so we could conduct a brief orientation to LZ setup and then "Wow, look! A UH-1 just happened to want to land here!!"   As you can expect, the best laid plans and all. It took the ground teams between 3 and 4 HOURS from the start of the compass course to navigate the 3/4 of a mile via the 2-3 navigation points to the LZ.  Yeah, it took them that long... Blew my carefully laid schedule all to hell. They got to the LZ area about 15 minutes before the aircraft was supposed to arrive, so I changed up the class to be a "I'm going to show you how to setup a helicopter LZ as we do it!" kind of thing.  Last bit of debris was cleared outside of my 100+ ft circle, just got the panels staked down and the UH-1 arrived overhead..Yay..)

[Eclipse]

CAP would freak out if any of they members ever got near a helicopter.

I have units that have worked with local aeromed helicopters in setting up LZ's - yes, they generally come with their own
crews or the local FD is versed in clearing the area, but most are also interested in outreach and love to do stuff which is
"different".

We've even had a bivouac where the helicopter came into a wooded area.  Its just a matter of making the right calls and
doing the paperwork.

I don't think CAP members can even ride in them except in an emergency.

My wing's encampments regularly have helicopter orientation rides in both Huey's and Chinooks, transport rides are a more complicated matter
because of the CAP-USAF approvals needed, but they are possible in the right circumstance.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I also learned the "Army standard" for setting up LZs (like I'm sure you learned in dope-on-a-rope school) on Active Duty and setup more than my fair share of LZs, PZs and external load hookup areas.

I have taught both methods to ground team members over the years, but in CAP I've only ever had to setup an improvised helicopter LZ once (it was for a National Guard UH-1 during the MI Wing SAR Academy in 1990).

I was thinking of doing the same thing, teaching both standards, however, I can't imagine ever really running into either scenario. If we were to run into one, I would have to imagine it would happen with the military, not civilian. Our standards in CAP are nowhere near the military method, and threw me for one hell of a loop when I first saw them. thought, man if we were ever to run into a situation where we really needed to use this stuff we would be up a creek because some of this just doesn't even begin to register right. I know the Army would either just hover above you thinking what the hell is this guy doing... what did he say about my mother? Or they would just ignore you and do whatever they wanted to do.

When you did the exercise with the ANG, did you use the Army standard, or did you try the CAP standard? If the CAP standard did it work, or did they look at you like you had something growing out of your forehead?

[NIN]

CAP would freak out if any of they members ever got near a helicopter.  I dont think CAP members can even ride in them except in an emergency.  Honestly, any operator CAP would work with would proabably have their own ground support and wouldnt rely on anyone on the ground they werent familiar with to do anything.  The couple times Ive had a signaller waving their arms telling me to land, they are usually standing right where I want to go!  I have plenty of experience assisting with helicopter operations, but not in a CAP capacity.
With me and the guys I fly with, once the LZ is clear, get out of the way.  I dont need anyone waving their arms telling me where they think I should land.  Im not even watching the signaller, other than making sure Im not going to run into them.  You basically another obstacle I have to watch.

For civilian helo ops, I was taught to allow the crew to perform their own recon and landing without outside distraction.  They can do their own airspace clearance and they know how fast or slow to put the aircraft down.

It always cracked me up when we'd have Pathfinders from our Aviation Group HQ at a ROKA external load PZ.   

Our protocol on a CH-47 is that once the FE / Crew Chief has the external load visible thru the hell hole, he's the one giving direction to the pilots.  The pilot would say something like "Load coming under the nose, chief.." and once you said "load in sight" it was all between you and the pilot.  The pilot isn't looking out as far as the signal guy, he's concentrating on a visible patch of grass or whatever out the chinbubble so he has a reference for the instructions he's getting from the rear.  After the signal guy says "its clear to come to this load" its all on us as the crewmembers.

We were hovering over these ROKA 105mm tubes in a shotgun config once, and our pathfinder is standing on a little berm about 150 ft forward and 30 ft to the right of the aircraft centerline and he's going positively bonkers with the hand-and-arm signals.  Left.. right.. up.. down.. hooked up.. not hooked up.. etc.   All "Saturday Night Fever" looking.

I'm trying to talk the hook to the ROKA guys who are holding the slings up, and the ROK Army hookup man on top of this cannon config keeps moving out of the way of the cargo hook, like he's scared of the thing. I'm getting pissed, but I'm trying to stay calm cuz the instant your voice goes up a notch on the intercom, the pilot's grip on the cyclic gets exponentially tighter.   

I'm in the back in the hole, gently giving directions in a steady monotone: "Drifting left.. come right two, right two.. hold your right.. hold what you got.. hold what you got... drifting slightly rear..forward one..forward one..directly over the load.. hookup man is an idiot..hold what you got... hold it...forward two, forward two..."

Finally the co-pilot says "Chief, whats going on back there? I think the signal guy is telling us his wife is pregnant, or there is a charging elephant about to hit us.. I'm not sure which. I don't think he knows, either."

"The hookup guy is afraid of the cargo hook, and the grounding guy is just standing there.."

Finally, my pilot is getting tired/tense, and I'm totally fed up with this moron who won't throw the sling over the hook.  I lean out of the aircraft, holding onto the beam of the cargo hook, and smack the guy on top of his helmet with my hand.

Anybody who knows helicopters will know that a helicopter generates tremendous amounts of static electricity potential (which is why there is a guy with a grounding rod to touch the hook before anybody touches it) while flying.  And a Chinook, with two rotor systems, each 60-ft in diameter, generates a LOT of juice.

I managed to discharge that static potential thru my arm, thru his helmet and thru his body to the ground.  (my arm, no kidding felt like I'd been sleeping on it for a week.. Talk about a tingle!)  The guy with the sling had his knees go all wobbly and he fell off the trails of the cannons, got caught up in the rotor wash, and wound up in a heap about 100 ft away.  One of the other Pathfinders came running over, grabbed the sling, threw it on the hook, flashed me a thumbs up and ran away..  About darn time.

Word to the wise kids: While it may make you feel like part of the solution, you might actually be just muddying the waters.

[Bluelakes 13]

No freaking out here:

http://kalemis.com/ES/img_0378.htm

[NIN]

I was thinking of doing the same thing, teaching both standards, however, I can't imagine ever really running into either scenario. If we were to run into one, I would have to imagine it would happen with the military, not civilian. Our standards in CAP are nowhere near the military method, and threw me for one hell of a loop when I first saw them. thought, man if we were ever to run into a situation where we really needed to use this stuff we would be up a creek because some of this just doesn't even begin to register right. I know the Army would either just hover above you thinking what the hell is this guy doing... what did he say about my mother? Or they would just ignore you and do whatever they wanted to do.

When you did the exercise with the ANG, did you use the Army standard, or did you try the CAP standard? If the CAP standard did it work, or did they look at you like you had something growing out of your forehead?

Well, the aircraft was one of the ones out of my old armory, up at Grayling on the summer range fire detail. We'd bombed into Ops at the airfield a few days earlier (in our CAP uniforms) and I was able to get us the hookup to have them come out. I said "How do you want your LZ?" and they said "Give us 100ft on each side clear of debris, willya?" so thats what I did.  Found the flattest area with no belly-piercing stumps and said "OK, we can put a Huey into this 25 x 50 ft area, now lets clear around it."

When I came time to marshal them in, I demonstrated with two orange tubes (in my gear, natch, like they use at the airport), but once I knew they'd seen me and saw my LZ, and the crewchief was obviously doing their airspace and ground clearance, I just kept my eyes open for any unseen hazards and stopped waving my hands around.

I did set the field up to "Army Standard" with the inverted Y using VS-17 panels.  I would probably setup a "civilian aeromed"-style LZ the same way, if I could, since the Army's clearance requirements seem to be a LOT bigger than the civilian ones.

Most FDs have guys versed in working with the air evec folks in the area. Up here, the Dartmouth-Hitchcock Air Rescue Team (DHART) does that kind of "in-service" training all over NH & VT, and one of the flight medics for DHART happened to be one of our squadron commanders, so we had an "in" to get that subject taught at any kind of SAR training.

[jeders]

My only experience with a medivac helicopter was finding one sitting at a hospital with an ELT going off. The crew had to set down in a field a mile or two from the hospital the previous night due to bad weather. It was a pretty rough landing from what they told us, and I guess they didn't check there radios when they finally got back to the hospital. Needless to say, they weren't too happy to see us when they first came out, actually they were rather embarrassed.

Other than that, I've trained for, but have never actually interacted with a helicopter on a mission.

Oh, and NIN, you owe me a new keyboard for that story.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I wholly agree, no one should be attempting sling load operations that cant tell their head from their butt, even if they have had the training. NO ONE FROM CAP SHOULD BE TRYING SLINGLOAD OPERATIONS!  If I were to see it, I would have to slap someone. And no one should be trying to direct an Army helicopter unless they know the military standard. I can understand that civilians have the ability to land themselves, however, the military can't unless they are in a combat scenario or landing on an actual runway with wheels, but the military no longer allows helicopters to land on only a helipad or anywhere else outside of combat scenarios without external guidance. If you have skids, it doesn't matter where you land, you must have external guidance in the military. I think this is a bit out there even for the military, they have very well trained pilots, at least they do in the Army, Marines though, I have to say I never have had a comfortable experience in a Marine helicopter.

I would also agree, if you can get communications with the helicopter via radio, if they say they got it, leave them alone and move out of the way, and let them take care of business, if they want to take care of it themselves, they can do it, I don't believe any helicopter pilot would put themselves and you and their craft at major risk by trying to be a cowboy.

[GTCommando]

Right, that is what I am wanting to know about, has anyone actually been involved with helicopter operations in CAP?

I've actually done Helo Ops twice, with both instances involving the local CareFlight (Civilian MediVac, you might say). Once at a mock disaster training exercise at the local airport (Training was for the firefighters, we were victims and crowd control for the day), and once at a police fair-type deal.

Were you easily accepted by the helicopter crew?

The first instance, the crew was prepared and knew what was going on. We didn't have any problems. The second instance, we got a pilot that had only been flying for three weeks and had no idea who we were or why there were guys in camo trying to land him. He came around a few times before he was told that everything was legit. After that, no problems.

Did the pilot respond to your signals?

Yes. The pilots were well trained, and we kept it clear and simple.

What methods have you used to mark the LZ? (VS17 pannels, smoke, other)

We used big, bright orange cones. Probably not going to happen on a mission out in the woods, but it worked without a hitch.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Right, that is what I am wanting to know about, has anyone actually been involved with helicopter operations in CAP?

I've actually done Helo Ops twice, with both instances involving the local CareFlight (Civilian MediVac, you might say). Once at a mock disaster training exercise at the local airport (Training was for the firefighters, we were victims and crowd control for the day), and once at a police fair-type deal.

Were you easily accepted by the helicopter crew?

The first instance, the crew was prepared and knew what was going on. We didn't have any problems. The second instance, we got a pilot that had only been flying for three weeks and had no idea who we were or why there were guys in camo trying to land him. He came around a few times before he was told that everything was legit. After that, no problems.

Did the pilot respond to your signals?

Yes. The pilots were well trained, and we kept it clear and simple.

What methods have you used to mark the LZ? (VS17 pannels, smoke, other)

We used big, bright orange cones. Probably not going to happen on a mission out in the woods, but it worked without a hitch.

Were your cones staked down or anything? A helicopter can suck a cone up into its rotor no problem and cause serious deadly damaging catastrophic problems like ripping off a blade or two and causing the helicopter to become unstable and vibrate violently and flip. The blades are deadly when flying around.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Please don't take all of my commenting and questioning wrong. I am very curious about this aspect of training and operations as it seems to be very scarcely used. I am also very opinionated and am firm on my opinions because of my training in helicopter operations, and want to make sure that both I and everyone are performing helicopter operations safely and effectively.

[SARJunkie]

We have an MOU with Fish and Wildlife. we reguarly fly in helos's as part of CAP with them.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

We have an MOU with Fish and Wildlife. we reguarly fly in helos's as part of CAP with them.

I am intrigued, please tell me more. Elaborate on what you do with them if you could.

[NIN]

Please don't take all of my commenting and questioning wrong. I am very curious about this aspect of training and operations as it seems to be very scarcely used. I am also very opinionated and am firm on my opinions because of my training in helicopter operations, and want to make sure that both I and everyone are performing helicopter operations safely and effectively.

Honestly, I think prepping for helo ops is probably more necessary, from a GT perspective, than, say, airborne/ground radiological monitoring (although, heh, with the events of the last week, those who have been poo-poohing the airborne radiological monitoring mission might be re-thinking that a tiny bit. And the folks in Pacific Region might be digging stuff out of storage that's been put away for a long time right now).  You're far more likely to have a situation that requires the arrival of a helo than one that involves a dosimeter or radiac meter.

In 28+ years in CAP, I saw a helicopter land to an improved LZ only twice. Both times were ARNG helos, both were for CAP-specific events.   IIRC, the first time we didn't even setup the PZ, it was just a "clearing" (and we got rides.. my first flight on a UH-1. it was fun!) that the Guard crew landed in.  And of course, the 2nd time I've already mentioned.

My point is: it probably doesn't hurt to train for it, but its not like its going to get used a lot.  Not enough to, say, carry beanbag lights around in your ruck "just in case".  (I didn't have orange wands in my ruck originally, either. After we made the arrangements for the aircraft, we stopped into the big home improvement store in town and bought 24" of orange tubing which we then cut in half and I stuck in my rucksack. I didn't even have a VS17 panel of my own..)

[SARJunkie]

We have an MOU with Fish and Wildlife. we reguarly fly in helos's as part of CAP with them.

I am intrigued, please tell me more. Elaborate on what you do with them if you could.

They provide the platform for us to take pictures during a disaster.   A helo can get closer, and slower...hence better pics.
They are good at flying, we are good at taking pictures.

[calguy]

In Southern California my experience is that ground teams often set up and land sheriff and California Highway Patrol as well as fire helicopters.  The ground teams in Southern California are often the "first responders" and order up, set up and land the helicopters.  Many of the ground team leaders are fire or law enforcement officers and have training and experience in talking to and landing aircraft.  It seems to happen often out here.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

We have an MOU with Fish and Wildlife. we reguarly fly in helos's as part of CAP with them.

I am intrigued, please tell me more. Elaborate on what you do with them if you could.

They provide the platform for us to take pictures during a disaster.   A helo can get closer, and slower...hence better pics.
They are good at flying, we care good a taking pictures.

Very nice, I have thought about using helicopters for photography, but didn't know how that would go over with CAP.

[Flying Pig]

In Southern California my experience is that ground teams often set up and land sheriff and California Highway Patrol as well as fire helicopters.  The ground teams in Southern California are often the "first responders" and order up, set up and land the helicopters.  Many of the ground team leaders are fire or law enforcement officers and have training and experience in talking to and landing aircraft.  It seems to happen often out here.

In all my years in So Cal I dont think I ever saw it happen.  CAP in So Cal are not nor have they ever been first responder nor do they "order up" helicopters. The LE or Fire commanders respond, assess, and make the call for their own assets.  What county?

[SarDragon]

The only helicopter ops we have in CAP, is the preparation of LZ's and guiding the helio in.

Right, that is what I am wanting to know about, has anyone actually been involved with helicopter operations in CAP?
Were you easily accepted by the helicopter crew?
Did the pilot respond to your signals?
What methods have you used to mark the LZ? (VS17 pannels, smoke, other)
How was the experience overall?

We had a County Sheriff helo come in to pick up the body from a crash a while back, and it went well. We cleared the LZ and pointed it out. He responded well to the signals. No special marking - it was pretty obvious. Good experience.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The only helicopter ops we have in CAP, is the preparation of LZ's and guiding the helio in.

Right, that is what I am wanting to know about, has anyone actually been involved with helicopter operations in CAP?
Were you easily accepted by the helicopter crew?
Did the pilot respond to your signals?
What methods have you used to mark the LZ? (VS17 pannels, smoke, other)
How was the experience overall?

We had a County Sheriff helo come in to pick up the body from a crash a while back, and it went well. We cleared the LZ and pointed it out. He responded well to the signals. No special marking - it was pretty obvious. Good experience.

I have figured that would be a good use of helicopters, and I know it happens, but I haven't heard anything about CAP participating with it.
Very nice, I am glad it worked well for you, I hope if the time comes for us to work with a helicopter it goes half as well as yours was.

[SarDragon]

I wrangled H-34s and UH-1Ns in the Navy for three years. The cop thing was easy. These days I'm a little rusty on the signals, but a quick review of the pub would get me right back in the game.

[Ned]

cough airships cough


Maximum loiter time in search area, good downward visibility, good low speeds for effective grid coverage, stable instrument platform, low cost per hour of operation.

Imagine the marketing!

What's not to like?

[calguy]

In Southern California my experience is that ground teams often set up and land sheriff and California Highway Patrol as well as fire helicopters.  The ground teams in Southern California are often the "first responders" and order up, set up and land the helicopters.  Many of the ground team leaders are fire or law enforcement officers and have training and experience in talking to and landing aircraft.  It seems to happen often out here.

In all my years in So Cal I dont think I ever saw it happen.  CAP in So Cal are not nor have they ever been first responder nor do they "order up" helicopters. The LE or Fire commanders respond, assess, and make the call for their own assets.  What county?

I wouldn't count Fresno as being Southern California but...
Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernadino and San Diego to name a few.
The teams in the field or the IC makes a call to the sheriff and requests a helicopter.  they ask where they want it and they are dispatched.  They give a common radio frequency and they show up.  Simple really!  No ground deputies required!

[bosshawk]

FP lived and worked as a Deputy in Socal for a lot of years before he went to Fresno, so he does know whereof he speaks.

[♠SARKID♠]

The only experience I've had was when we were working with Flight for Life at EAA - Fon Du Lac base.  Our MCC was setup two hangars away from theirs so we setup a bit of a playful weekend MOU with them.  As soon as we heard them on the radio or saw them pulling out of their hangar (indicating they were going out on an emergency) we'd go out and setup a perimeter for them around their hangar.  During EAA the pilots camping at Fon Du Lac don't operate with the highest cognitive ability and tend to throw safety and caution to the wind (walking on taxiways, running across the runway ((3 go arounds/ aborted takeoffs last year)), and walking right past Flight For Life as the prop is making revolutions).  We setup a safety zone for them around their hangar, ramp, and down their takeoff flight path.  At first I thought it was just gonna be something fun for the cadets to do when off shift but when I saw what kind of idiocy was going on it really was hazard mitigation.

They were kind enough to give us this nifty little LZ prep card.  Its pretty similar to what's in the ground team reference manual.



I've been looking at getting some PowerFlares to throw in a vehicle kit for both road safety and that unlikely to happen helicopter LZ setup.  Mind you, I have a safety products distributor five minutes from my house where they sell them for practically pocket change at an annual warehouse sale so we wouldn't be paying the $50+ they cost online.

[SarDragon]

Could you post a bigger size scan of that somewhere? Please?

[♠SARKID♠]

Sorry, Photobucket resized it.  Let me know if you have a problem downloading it, I've never used Filedropper.

Here's the combined
http://www.filedropper.com/heliops  (.jpg, 4.2Mgb)

Side one original/large scan
http://www.filedropper.com/0012 (.jpg, 5.7Mgb)

Side two original/large scan
http://www.filedropper.com/0013 (.jpg, 7.8Mgb)

Note: Future readers of this thread, the files are only kept on Filedropper for 30 days after this post.  If this thread is long dead and you want a copy of the pictures feel free to PM me.

[Flying Pig]

In Southern California my experience is that ground teams often set up and land sheriff and California Highway Patrol as well as fire helicopters.  The ground teams in Southern California are often the "first responders" and order up, set up and land the helicopters.  Many of the ground team leaders are fire or law enforcement officers and have training and experience in talking to and landing aircraft.  It seems to happen often out here.

In all my years in So Cal I dont think I ever saw it happen.  CAP in So Cal are not nor have they ever been first responder nor do they "order up" helicopters. The LE or Fire commanders respond, assess, and make the call for their own assets.  What county?

I wouldn't count Fresno as being Southern California but...
Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernadino and San Diego to name a few.
The teams in the field or the IC makes a call to the sheriff and requests a helicopter.  they ask where they want it and they are dispatched.  They give a common radio frequency and they show up.  Simple really!  No ground deputies required!

And what do they show up to do?

Your right, Fresno is Central CA.  But when I was a Riverside County Sheriff's Deputy, again, your right, that was So Cal.

As a side note, a lot of us fly with NVGs.  You dont want a light source, especially vehicle headlights if the crew has them.  Parknig lights usually work pretty well.  Youll need to ask if they have NVGs.

[calguy]

Last year the Riverside County Sheriff as well as a USMC helo supported pulling two airplane crash victims from a mountain top that a CAP ground team located.    The team was the point of contact for the rescue helicopter and set up the landing zone for them.  Other times, the helicopters are used to bring deputies (law enforcement) to the crash site after a CAP ground team locates the crash.  Since law enforcement is ultimately responsible for the crash site, more often than not they would rather fly in than hike to a crash that would require a long and tough hike.  CAP ground teams seem to have a better working relationship with the sheriffs than elsewhere since getting a helicopter even in bad weather is not an issue.  Maybe most don't know but most crashes in Southern California that CAP search for are located by ground teams, not CAP aircrews.

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, I know all about the search you were on in Palm Springs.  Good job on that too by the way

[dogden]

A few years ago I was on a redcap and Texas DPS offered us an A-Star to use on the search (missing pilot was well connected in Austin). Mission staff ran it up the chain for approval and I was tasked to fly on the bird. DPS pilot took us out and we found a target within 20 min but we were not sure if it was the wreck site. We landed in a nearby pasture after notifying mission base and hiked to the site. I had grabbed my 24hr pack just in case and threw it in the helo prior to launch. We made the find, only time in my CAP career that I have been aircrew and GT on the same sortie.