Questions about CAP and USAF relationship

[DinoSarge]

Seeing as I have only been in a meager two and one half years my knowledge of NHQ policy and relations to the USAF is limited. I have a few questions and I was hoping that a few members could help me out. My questions are:

Is the CAP to USAF relationship distant, and strained? I have seen a lot of comments that would imply this.

Would you say the saying that "CAP is the unloved step child of the USAF and they only keep enough hands in to control things" is true?

another question

Do you guys think CAP should operate more OR less in a militaristic manner? Pros and cons of both please.

Thank you in advance.

[Eclipse]

No.

No.

More.

[DinoSarge]

No.

No.

More.

Any reasons for the first two sir (I like details)?

I do agree CAP needs to be more military in the way it operates. Otherwise actual members of the Armed Services might have a bad opinion of our great organization.

[jeders]

No
No
More

At least that's from where I sit down here in the weeds. Up at 30,000 feet, I think the answers are pretty much the same, but I have no personal experience to prove that.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

No.
No.
More.

I think that there are some that would like for you to believe that CAP - USAF relations are strained, but from what I can tell, they aren't.

If CAP were an unloved step child of the USAF, do you think that we would be allowed to wear the uniforms that we do? There is rhyme and reason for the other uniforms that aren't USAF style, and they are there for good reasons, nothing about feeling that CAP is unworthy, but to help show that all of CAP is worthy, even those who are overweight.

CAP doesn't show the proper courtesy to the USAF as it should. There is much more that we could and should do in a military manner. I know many units use and display the proper C&C, but there are some that don't. Those that don't need to be awakened to the reality of CAP and its military traditions and history. More emphasis needs to be placed on proper wear of the uniform, to include proper grooming. There is many more things that I could touch on like the rank structure and its lack of proper use, and the lack of a support channel on the SM side of the house.

[FW]

I think your questions can be answered pretty much by using the search button on top.  You'll find any number of discussions dealing with them. 
But for a quick response; no, no and, I'll wait and see what the governance study gives us...

[RADIOMAN015]

I think that the AF overall is VERY happy with CAP's emergency services/homeland security support, as well as the overall cadet program.    Since the AF provides most of CAP's financial support, there's a very strong interest to ensure that it isn't inappropriately utilized.    The squadron I'm in is fortunate to get significant support (e.g. dedicated facilities, heat, lights, air conditioning, and local/DSN telephone service) from the local air base, this support might not be apparent to others not on a military base.       

Those (senior members) associated with the cadet program tend to be more military than those involved only in the senior member aspect of Civil Air Patrol's missions.   

Although some of our adult members do like to "play Army/Air Force" more than others .   Since our name is CIVIL Air Patrol, and that should be the clue that we are the "civilian" auxiliary for the USAF.  HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that we are disrespectful to other volunteers (including those appointed as our commanders), nor act like "fools" whether in CAP specific uniform or the AF/CAP style uniform.  HOWEVER, also there's a lot of administrative "mumbo jumbo" that has to be complied with at the squadron level, so we need adults to step up to the plate and help with these non glory tasks, so that no member is overburdened. 
RM     

[Eclipse]

Any reasons for the first two sir (I like details)?

The first two just aren't true - anyone saying otherwise is trying to take micro problems or speed bumps and turn them into macro attitude.

As to being more military, I believe one of the things that has caused our internal struggles is the dilution of our military lineage and
allowing people to ignore our paramilitary structure.

"Playing Army" is not the point.   The point is getting people to understand that not all opinions are equal, there are ramifications to
bad behavior and poor performance, and that all "fun" comes at someone's expense.

To most non-wannabe adults, the most compelling thing about military service is the team work and honor that comes from working
together with like-minded individuals towards a common goal, and sometimes losing yourself in something bigger.  We all hold up a corner and together get things moving.

Today's society of "no one is really 'wrong", "everyone is equal", and "do your own thing" de-emphasizes teamwork and CAP has certainly not fought that in a meaningful way, which is why we have far too may people peeling off the tasty skin of CAP's KFC,
and leaving the "meat" of the work for "some other guy".

[cap235629]

Since the AF provides most of CAP's financial support, there's a very strong interest to ensure that it isn't inappropriately utilized. 

Incorrect. Our funding comes from CONGRESS not the AF. The AF is tasked to oversee expenditures but none of our finances appear in the AF budget.

[DinoSarge]

CAP doesn't show the proper courtesy to the USAF as it should. There is much more that we could and should do in a military manner. I know many units use and display the proper C&C, but there are some that don't. Those that don't need to be awakened to the reality of CAP and its military traditions and history. More emphasis needs to be placed on proper wear of the uniform, to include proper grooming. There is many more things that I could touch on like the rank structure and its lack of proper use, and the lack of a support channel on the SM side of the house.

That is something I have been noticing all too much recently sir. I'm a cadet staff member at my Sqdn and if nobody renders proper C&C to CAP or USAF superiors,  I give em a good tongue lashing whether I'm in their Chain of command or not (or I just tell their flight staff if they use the "You're not MY boss excuse.") I think that our cadet program on a general level is edging towards being like the boy scouts... (Of course there are still plenty of units that are great examples of the cadet program and what it should be, and demonstrate it all the time). We have Inspections in blues, with full notice and prep time given,  so our cadets can't pull anything about out of regs uniforms and grooming standards.

Regarding the non USAF uniforms, yes I understand the concept of weight standards.  I was not really reffering to weight standards.

Thank you for all the input so far gentlemen I appreciate it.

[RADIOMAN015]

Since the AF provides most of CAP's financial support, there's a very strong interest to ensure that it isn't inappropriately utilized. 

Incorrect. Our funding comes from CONGRESS not the AF. The AF is tasked to oversee expenditures but none of our finances appear in the AF budget.

I think you will find  that the Colonel and his staff at CAP-USAF HQ is the contract compliance/grants oversight --- IF CAP Inc doesn't comply that funding can be pulled and the grant terminated.    We come under AU, AETC, USAF for funding.  HOW do you think we are fortunate at the end of some fiscal years to get end of year "budget fall out" for our validated BUT unfunded (primarily vehicles, aircraft, and communications equipment) needs
RM

[FW]

Our grant is made by congress for CAP.  CAP-USAF works the complience/oversight issues for the OMB.  After all, we are the USAF Aux......

Fallout money is a gift from the Air Force.  We do have a good relationship with them and, they are who we assist....

And, yes, the Air Force can pull the plug on our grant if we don't follow the rules. 

[cap235629]

Our grant is made by congress for CAP.  CAP-USAF works the complience/oversight issues for the OMB.  After all, we are the USAF Aux......

Fallout money is a gift from the Air Force.  We do have a good relationship with them and, they are who we assist....

And, yes, the Air Force can pull the plug on our grant if we don't follow the rules.

isn't that basically what I said?

[FW]

^pretty much, yep.  you said it.  I agree.....

[NCRblues]

I guess i will have the dissenting view point here....again...

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

Now i know some of you will shout me down saying "nu huh the AF loves us around here", and that very well may be true. But around me, several bases (AF, and others) are refusing to help CAP out anymore. CAP members have even got themselves placed a few base barment lists.

Is this the relationship OVERALL? NO, i think overall we are (currently) OK with the AF, but as the saying goes "all politics are local" so, where the political world of CAP is tense, so is the AF relationship with us. It has gotten much worse since mid January in NCR.

I am currently trying to mend the relationships for a couple wings, but i have been meet with "pushback".

[Eclipse]

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

By what measure?

I am currently trying to mend the relationships for a couple wings, but i have been meet with "pushback".

And how, exactly, are "you" going to mend those relationships?

[NCRblues]

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

By what measure?

I am currently trying to mend the relationships for a couple wings, but i have been meet with "pushback".

And how, exactly, are "you" going to mend those relationships?

Just like you eclipse, i have a job that i do in CAP for the wing i am working for right now. One of the things my wing commander asked me to do, was act as a go between with the bases. I have a good relationship with 2 bases that i worked on while on active duty. They know me, know my face, and trust me, so who better to get a WORKING relationship going again?

For your first question, the political "grandstanding" that is occurring in NCR puts some folks (like base commanders) out. They just don't want it around, because frankly they have there own to deal with.

I know eclipse that in your perfect world in chicago, and your amazing relationship with the Naval base, that you cant fathom in some places of the country, cap (due to past actions, and some current) are not well liked....

[Spaceman3750]

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

By what measure?

I am currently trying to mend the relationships for a couple wings, but i have been meet with "pushback".

And how, exactly, are "you" going to mend those relationships?

One of the things my wing commander asked me to do, was act as a go between with the bases

Not that I doubt your statement, but isn't that what the state director is for?

[cap235629]

I know eclipse that in your perfect world in chicago

That one word just explained so much.........................

[FW]

I guess i will have the dissenting view point here....again...

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

Is this the relationship OVERALL? NO, i think overall we are (currently) OK with the AF, but as the saying goes "all politics are local" so, where the political world of CAP is tense, so is the AF relationship with us. It has gotten much worse since mid January in NCR.

I guess it all depends on our view from where we're standing.  On the local level, there may be pushback due to local misunderstandings or mistakes made.  Many of these problems can be fixed by the SD or LR/CC.  At the CAP-USAF national level, I doubt we're having any significant issues.  At the Pentegon; we'll there may be some issues causing heartburn however, we won't be losing any "status"...... (yet).....  I think it is more of a short term thing and, will not effect the membership in any way.
just my $.02 

[NCRblues]

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

By what measure?

I am currently trying to mend the relationships for a couple wings, but i have been meet with "pushback".

And how, exactly, are "you" going to mend those relationships?

One of the things my wing commander asked me to do, was act as a go between with the bases

Not that I doubt your statement, but isn't that what the state director is for?

It is, yes you are correct, but Missouri wing and Kansas wing share a SD, so when he is in say....western Kansas, and we need something from say, Fort lostinthewoods in south Missouri, I work as the go between. It has been cleared by CAP-USAF.

[NCRblues]

I guess i will have the dissenting view point here....again...

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

Is this the relationship OVERALL? NO, i think overall we are (currently) OK with the AF, but as the saying goes "all politics are local" so, where the political world of CAP is tense, so is the AF relationship with us. It has gotten much worse since mid January in NCR.

I guess it all depends on our view from where we're standing.  On the local level, there may be pushback due to local misunderstandings or mistakes made.  Many of these problems can be fixed by the SD or LR/CC.  At the CAP-USAF national level, I doubt we're having any significant issues.  At the Pentegon; we'll there may be some issues causing heartburn however, we won't be losing any "status"...... (yet).....  I think it is more of a short term thing and, will not effect the membership in any way.
just my $.02 

Like i said Colonel, Overall we are good to go 

[Eclipse]

I know eclipse that in your perfect world in chicago, and your amazing relationship with the Naval base, that you cant fathom in some places of the country, cap (due to past actions, and some current) are not well liked....

Actually, I probably know exactly what you're talking about, these relationships come at a the price of high maintenance.

[Spaceman3750]

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

By what measure?

I am currently trying to mend the relationships for a couple wings, but i have been meet with "pushback".

And how, exactly, are "you" going to mend those relationships?

One of the things my wing commander asked me to do, was act as a go between with the bases

Not that I doubt your statement, but isn't that what the state director is for?

It is, yes you are correct, but Missouri wing and Kansas wing share a SD, so when he is in say....western Kansas, and we need something from say, Fort lostinthewoods in south Missouri, I work as the go between. It has been cleared by CAP-USAF.

Understood. I hadn't heard of an SD being shared by two wings but there's a first time for everything!

[Eclipse]

I know eclipse that in your perfect world in chicago

That one word just explained so much.........................

Such as?  Funny how I am able to present my arguments without stereo typing and insulting people, yet I live in a "little world".

[FW]

Understood. I hadn't heard of an SD being shared by two wings but there's a first time for everything!

There are quite a few wings which share an SD.  Especially in the NER.

[DinoSarge]

This is very interesting. To the gentleman who said that some bases Barres some CAP members would you be able to say any reasons, (without names of course for privacy's sake)?

[NCRblues]

This is very interesting. To the gentleman who said that some bases Barres some CAP members would you be able to say any reasons, (without names of course for privacy's sake)?

No i can not, sorry. I can say it was individual actions, not actions of CAP as a whole. Some people just cant control themselves in public 

[DinoSarge]

This is very interesting. To the gentleman who said that some bases Barres some CAP members would you be able to say any reasons, (without names of course for privacy's sake)?

No i can not, sorry. I can say it was individual actions, not actions of CAP as a whole. Some people just cant control themselves in public 

Alright I gotcha sir. SEE OPSEC DOES WORK! (Rolls eyes).

[NCRblues]

This is very interesting. To the gentleman who said that some bases Barres some CAP members would you be able to say any reasons, (without names of course for privacy's sake)?

No i can not, sorry. I can say it was individual actions, not actions of CAP as a whole. Some people just cant control themselves in public 

Alright I gotcha sir. SEE OPSEC DOES WORK! (Rolls eyes).

I am not sure if it was a sarcastic opsec remark...but i Will treat it like it is.

Yes, opsec is important. What is more important is keeping my security clearances. I was on duty at the time some of the CAP members were placed on the base barment list, so the only way i could tell you would be for you to write my former commander, or the 509th BW/CC and request permission to look at the base barment list...

[Eclipse]

This is very interesting. To the gentleman who said that some bases Barres some CAP members would you be able to say any reasons, (without names of course for privacy's sake)?

In some places we have over stepped our bounds or made a mistake in front of the wrong person, at others the base commander either is not interested in, or misunderstands the AFI governing our access.

And in the vast majority we are welcome and on many considered as asset.

[NCRblues]

This is very interesting. To the gentleman who said that some bases Barres some CAP members would you be able to say any reasons, (without names of course for privacy's sake)?

In some places we have over stepped our bounds or made a mistake in front of the wrong person, at others the base commander either is not interested in, or misunderstands the AFI governing our access.

And in the vast majority we are welcome and on many considered as asset.

Agree 100% with this one. In fact 99.9% of cap members are welcomed with open arms and even *gasp* a salute. But like eclipse said, sometimes we have members that overstep, or don't think, and base commanders are not as forgiving as the civilian world would be....

[DinoSarge]

This is very interesting. To the gentleman who said that some bases Barres some CAP members would you be able to say any reasons, (without names of course for privacy's sake)?

No i can not, sorry. I can say it was individual actions, not actions of CAP as a whole. Some people just cant control themselves in public 

Alright I gotcha sir. SEE OPSEC DOES WORK! (Rolls eyes).

I am not sure if it was a sarcastic opsec remark...but i Will treat it like it is.

Yes, opsec is important. What is more important is keeping my security clearances. I was on duty at the time some of the CAP members were placed on the base barment list, so the only way i could tell you would be for you to write my former commander, or the 509th BW/CC and request permission to look at the base barment list...

I was mostly reffering to how *ehem*... our OPSEC is basically common sense with a non-disclosure agreement.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My experience since '93 has been it depends on where you are and who you deal with.

That was the era of the "berry boards," imposed on us by the USAF for bad behaviour by a few individuals.

I've encountered the gamut of attitudes from AF personnel, from indifference to "who are they?" to veiled hostility to getting a hearty handshake from an AFRES colonel who thanked me profusely for what CAP does for the AF.

An AFRES MSgt once commented to me "you guys should get paid or at least get retirement points."

I have found that junior Airmen and Officers often don't know about us.

I have generally gotten a better reception from ANG and AFRES personnel than regular AF.

Customs and courtesies...it may seem unfair, but we are required to render them to Armed Forces personnel, but they aren't required to render them to us.  C'est la vie.

I almost always get saluted by Army and Marines.

The relationship has been strained, I would say since about 1990, and unfortunately a lot of the blame can be laid at the feet of some CAP members at various levels of leadership who want a "have your cake and eat it too" relationship with the AF...they don't like to be told by the AF what to do, but they sure like getting their flying hours funded.

As with many issues...YMMV.

[Larry Mangum]

MG Dean, addressed the attendees at the SER OPS Conference, and had nothing but good things to say about CAP. Same with the Colonel, commanding AFRCC.   So while things may be strained at a few bases due to bad behavior by a few CAP Members, the relationship as a whole is in good shape.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Our relationship to USAF is a little strained at the moment.

By what measure?

I am currently trying to mend the relationships for a couple wings, but i have been meet with "pushback".

And how, exactly, are "you" going to mend those relationships?

One of the things my wing commander asked me to do, was act as a go between with the bases

Not that I doubt your statement, but isn't that what the state director is for?

It is, yes you are correct, but Missouri wing and Kansas wing share a SD, so when he is in say....western Kansas, and we need something from say, Fort lostinthewoods in south Missouri, I work as the go between. It has been cleared by CAP-USAF.

Understood. I hadn't heard of an SD being shared by two wings but there's a first time for everything!

CTWG, MAWG and RIWG share an SD

[Larry Mangum]

So does Washington and Oregon.

[Al Sayre]

As do MS & AL

[lordmonar]

My experience since '93 has been it depends on where you are and who you deal with.

That was the era of the "berry boards," imposed on us by the USAF for bad behaviour by a few individuals.

I've encountered the gamut of attitudes from AF personnel, from indifference to "who are they?" to veiled hostility to getting a hearty handshake from an AFRES colonel who thanked me profusely for what CAP does for the AF.

An AFRES MSgt once commented to me "you guys should get paid or at least get retirement points."

I have found that junior Airmen and Officers often don't know about us.

I have generally gotten a better reception from ANG and AFRES personnel than regular AF.

Customs and courtesies...it may seem unfair, but we are required to render them to Armed Forces personnel, but they aren't required to render them to us.  C'est la vie.

I almost always get saluted by Army and Marines.

The relationship has been strained, I would say since about 1990, and unfortunately a lot of the blame can be laid at the feet of some CAP members at various levels of leadership who want a "have your cake and eat it too" relationship with the AF...they don't like to be told by the AF what to do, but they sure like getting their flying hours funded.

As with many issues...YMMV.

This has been my experince.

The USAF does not educate their new people on who or what CAP is.

So it is hit or miss about the Rank and File's relationship with us.

If the first/only encounter is with some Senior Member trolling for salutes, or seeing a bunch of duffle bag cadets/seniors....then they are going to have a negitive view.

And that is the root to the "problem".  Since negitive examples tend to make the biggest impressions.......the random USAF member will either have a "who" or a "Oh those jokers" response.

But on the most part.....those USAF members who actually work with us.....know that for the most part.....that we are a professional and capable organisation.

If they did not.....they would not be asking us to do all the operations that we are involved in.

What can we do to "improve" the reationship?

1.  Follow CAP's core values. 
2.  Urge/Grouse/Beat all our peers to do the same.
3.  Meet with the local USAF base commander (if you are on or near a base) and establish and keep a good guest image.
4.  When we find the wannabes and those who are abusing the relationship......we take a stand and stop it....on the spot.

We all have stories of "that guy"......the one who can't/wont wear his uniform right.  The one who hangs out at the BX trooling for salutes.  The one who only joined CAP so he can get access to the Base Golf Course.  The one who told everyone he was a retired Lt Col....but got kicked out as an E-2.

When we find these guys......we stop them cold....and send them packing if they can't change their ways.

[N Harmon]

When we find these guys......we stop them cold....and send them packing if they can't change their ways.

Agree 100%.

I understand that those in the know can't talk specifics, but it seems to me that inappropriate behavior on a military base would be grounds for some serious CAP discipline, perhaps even 2B territory if it caused CAP to be banned from the base. Was any such discipline initiated?

[Eclipse]

I personally know of a few slapped hands or unofficial conversations to stay away from the base awhile, and also a few urban legends with worse ramifications, but on the whole nothing happens, as is SOP for CAP.

Why punish the guilty when we can all suffer to avoid an uncomfortable conversation?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

grounds for some serious CAP discipline, perhaps even 2B territory if it caused CAP to be banned from the base.

At the very least a written reprimand and/or demotion with a warning that another foul-up means a boot in the kiester and a 2B in your hand.

Or...let the bad actor be "educated" on misbehaviour while at attention before the wing king and base CCMsgt.

They shouldn't be hanging around the BX anyway, should they, lordmonar?

When I go it's just to go to MCSS, and then I get what I need and get out, and I often go in civvies.

But I do believe that it is inexcusable that the AF doesn't educate its new people about their Auxiliary, given that they have to learn the functions and role of the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve.  It would take at most a two-hour lecture conducted by a pre-cleared CAP officer, along with a knowledgeable academic MTI.

[lordmonar]

Well here on Nellis....

We had a CAP cadet get caught shoplifting from the BX....2b.
We had a guy who claimed to be a medically retired Army Lt Col....was only an E-3 after a 4 year hitch.....he had a falsified military dependant ID card....he got a 2b and the OSI are watching for him to try to access base again.
When I first go to Nellis the first CAP member I met was wearing a flight suit so he could better service when he went to the VA hospitol (located on base).
Had a guy who represented himself as a CAP PAO so he could score VIP access to the Nellis Air Show.
I have seem lots of "CAP members" who only join so they can go to the golf course.

We have a good relationship with the base....they like us and we do our best to police our own and tell the base when we have bad apples.

We do a good job of it for the most part.

As far as hanging out at the BX.......CAP members by regulations are only supposed to be going to the MCSS...but AAFES allows anyone to use the food court and the "BX Mall" shops and they no longer check IDs at the door so it is hit or miss if you can actually buy something at the check out stand.

[NCRblues]

Wow, this is a first i have heard of repercussions of something done on base by a cap member. :clap:

Those items listed are the problems run across at most installations I believe. Cap tends to avoid those awkward conversations as much as possible. I'm am very happy there are those out and about that are not afraid to speak up when something is wrong...

[Mustang]

Do you guys think CAP should operate more OR less in a militaristic manner?

What exactly do you consider a "militaristic manner"?  I'd venture to guess the Air Force isn't as "militaristic" as you imagine, certainly not the ops side of the house.  The AF has a very strong mission-oriented focus, as does most of CAP, and they will be the first to tell you that spit & polish, snappy salutes and sharp creases do not get the mission done--nor, IMHO, do they really even contribute to mission accomplishment. Being the best at your job that you can possibly be, does. 

This is the form versus substance argument, really.