Flying For the Civil Air Patrol

[C172N]

I plan to apply for a Pilot's position in March, when I turn 17.

My qualifications as followed:
Private Pilot's License
Instrument Rating
100-110 hours..TT
Multi Engine Time (3-5 hours)
75 of that PIC..mostly X-Country time
25 hours Mountain time

It says you need 200 hours to fly as a "mission pilot"...Can I fly for the CAP as a non-mission pilot while building PIC time?

How many hours can I expect to fly a month?

[C172N]

Also if I can't join the CAP and fly for them until I meet the 200 hour quota, Is there a discount on rental aircraft for being a part of the CAP? Say 65/hr instead of 100hr?

[davidsinn]

I plan to apply for a Pilot's position in March, when I turn 17.

My qualifications as followed:
Private Pilot's License
Instrument Rating
100-110 hours..TT
Multi Engine Time (3-5 hours)
75 of that PIC..mostly X-Country time
25 hours Mountain time

It says you need 200 hours to fly as a "mission pilot"...Can I fly for the CAP as a non-mission pilot while building PIC time?

How many hours can I expect to fly a month?

You need to be 18 to be aircrew. There are non-mission pilot qualifications but I don't know how that would work out for a minor. You should join just to be a cadet and let the flying stuff come later.

[Eclipse]

All aircrew position require you be 18.

If you complete you can rent CAP aircraft you are qualified for at significantly reduced rates (i.e. $35 per hour dry for a 172).

You do not need to be qualified mission aircrew to rent the planes, only have completed the Form 5 check ride in the respective airframe.

At 17 you will have no choice but to join as  cadet.

You can fly as much as your the aircraft availability, your availability, and your finances can support.

[C172N]

Wow! So It'll be about 40/hr wet then.

Nice. That beats 100/Hr..

[C172N]

What about as a Student Pilot? If my CFI signs me off, can I rent from the CAP?

[Eclipse]

What about as a Student Pilot? If my CFI signs me off, can I rent from the CAP?

You must be a fully qualified and licensed pilot to take the check ride.  Student pilots cannot take a form 5.

I thought you said above you had a PPL?

Actually, as  cadet, CAP does allow for primary instruction by a qualified CFI.  That CFI would also have to be a member and qualified as a CAP pilot.

Seniors are not allowed to take primary instruction.

[C172N]

Okay.

So I'm looking at an average of 35-45 an hour dry then? I live in Colorado..

[A.Member]

What about as a Student Pilot? If my CFI signs me off, can I rent from the CAP?

You must have your private certificate.  Student pilot does not cut it. 

Let's be clear...you are able to rent the aircraft.  However, there are a few very important restrictions - we're not a FBO:

1.  You must wear a uniform
2.  Only CAP members are allowed to fly in the aircraft (ie. no joy rides for friends and family)
3.  Aircraft must remain within state unless explicitly authorized

As stated earlier, if your primary draw to CAP is cheap flying and not the overall mission, then you're best to look elsewhere.  However, if you truly in interested in serving, then you may find it to be a good fit.

[davidsinn]

Wow! So It'll be about 40/hr wet then.

Nice. That beats 100/Hr..

How do you get 40/hr wet? 36/hr dry + 4/gal*8.5gal/hr is around 70/hr wet.

[C172N]

I think you misunderstood my post!. I'm only 16, and my qualifications when I turn 17 would be as followed. ( PPL, Instrument Multi Engine time etc)

And honestly yes, I am looking for a cheap way to build hours for my CPL so I can move onto a flying job. However I do want to serve my Country and I don't mind volunteering what so  ever or wearing a uniform. I used to be a boy scout..made it to "life" rank. I'm not looking for joy rides.

*Even so, 65-70 hour wet beats 100.hr.

[A.Member]

I think you misunderstood my post!. I'm only 16, and my qualifications when I turn 17 would be as followed. ( PPL, Instrument Multi Engine time etc)

And honestly yes, I am looking for a cheap way to build hours for my CPL so I can move onto a flying job. However I do want to serve my Country and I don't mind volunteering what so  ever or wearing a uniform. I used to be a boy scout..made it to "life" rank. I'm not looking for joy rides.

*Even so, 65-70 hour wet beats 100.hr.

Then, quite frankly, you need to find a good flying club.


A number of organizations put out scholarships that can assist in funding flying.   Check into those.

[C172N]

I would like to fly for the CAP when I turn 18. To serve my country...I don't want to join a flying club.

[Eclipse]

Wow! So It'll be about 40/hr wet then.

Nice. That beats 100/Hr..

How do you get 40/hr wet? 36/hr dry + 4/gal*8.5gal/hr is around 70/hr wet.

I thought the same thing.  We usually scratch pad quote about $85 an hour for our aircraft.

A few other things to bear in mind.

The airframe you want may be on the other side of the state - CAP is moving increasingly to 182's with glass cockpits.  You have to check out on every unique aircraft you want to fly.

Also, I usually advise that new members should not expect to get much stick time for the first 6 months, as they are ramped-up into
CAP's systems and procedures.  As a cadet the expectations for regular participation will be much higher than a senior member (i.e. weekly meetings and progression).  Failure to participate regularly or not progressing would be an issue, and would impact your ability to
even have access to our aircraft.

[C172N]

85/HR for a 182 G1000 isn't bad. Not at all.

And again bear in mind I will fully participate in all activities and meetings. Bear in mind I'm a ex Boy Scout. During those years I had hundreds of hours of volunteer experience as well as a excellent track record for making every meeting/event.

[Eclipse]

I would like to fly for the CAP when I turn 18. To serve my country...I don't want to join a flying club.

I would suggest finding a unit near you and seeing what they are about.  They should welcome a new cadet
who is also a pilot.

If the cadet part of the program doesn't interest you, then you will need to wait until you are 18 and then join as
a senior member, you might find, however, that yo like being a cadet and the many opportunities that offers, and
you can stay a cadet until you are 21.

As a cadet over 18 you can fly as aircrew and do just about anything else in CAP from an aircrew perspective,
as long as you understand that as long as it says "cadet" on your ID, you are not considered an adult in the eyes of the program.

[tsrup]

Seniors are not allowed to take primary instruction.

Not entirely true (as a blanket statement)
See CAPR 60-1 sec. 2-8C (2)

[Flying Pig]

So, essentially, you just turned 16 years old 4 months ago.  Your a cadet if you choose to join.  On top of that, you are a very low time, young (kid) pilot.  I probably wouldnt let you fly my Squadrons plane for some time and definitely not as soon as you join.  I wouldn't expect to start racking up hours right away.   I have had CFII's from the local flight school look at joining, and when they found out what it actually took to become a CAP member and pilot, they quickly lost interest. Your a student pilot who is anticipating having an Instrument rating and 110hrs by the time your 17?  And you are looking at CAP as a way to build cheap time towards your Commercial?  Your a student pilot with 25hrs of mountain time?  Is that flying "in" or "over" the mountains?  Also, side note, If you dont have a multi engine rating, you dont have ANY multi-engine "time".  Your buddy letting your fly doesnt count.
As a cadet, I wouldnt join CAP with the expectation of racking up large amounts of hours.  Honestly, join CAP as a cadet, and it will be up to your Squadron and Regs.  But if your just joining to get cheap flight time, I dont know that your in the right mindset to do what needs to be done just to be a cadet.    Sounds to me like someone mentioned CAP as a way for you to build cheap flight time, and your pretty excited.  Good for you.  But be ready to join the program as a whole, not because of flight time.  Also, do you have a CAP plane near you?  Not all CAP units have airplanes.
Good Luck.

So, instead of telling us what you think you might have next year, what do you actually have NOW as far as time and ratings?

[Short Field]

1.  You must wear a uniform
2.  Only CAP members are allowed to fly in the aircraft (ie. no joy rides for friends and family)
3.  Aircraft must remain within state unless explicitly authorized

A CAP cadet pilot may not carry another cadet in the aircraft as a crew member or passenger.

[C172N]

Well...

I have 45 hours TT now. 7ish of that is Mountain PIC time. I'm half way through my Instrument rating and I have 4 hour dual multi engine in a 310.

So yeah, I believe my estimates are correct and I just started flying in May.

[A.Member]

1.  You must wear a uniform
2.  Only CAP members are allowed to fly in the aircraft (ie. no joy rides for friends and family)
3.  Aircraft must remain within state unless explicitly authorized

A CAP cadet pilot may not carry another cadet in the aircraft as a crew member or passenger.

Agreed.  I was simply illustrating the point that use of the aircraft is much more restrictive than a simple FBO rental.

[bosshawk]

Young man: you must have a very vivid imagination.  Your original post had 100-110 total time, now it is 45.  You claim to be half way to your instrument rating.  Your original post stated that you had 25 hours of mountain time, now it is 7ish().  Why don't you get your PPL and then come talk to us, along with a membership as a senior.  Since you say that you are only 16, that will take another two years.  Perhaps, by then you will have enough flying time to be serious about being a CAP pilot.  In the meantime, keep flying and try not to inflate your qualifications.

[C172N]

Young man: you must have a very vivid imagination.  Your original post had 100-110 total time, now it is 45.  You claim to be half way to your instrument rating.  Your original post stated that you had 25 hours of mountain time, now it is 7ish().  Why don't you get your PPL and then come talk to us, along with a membership as a senior.  Since you say that you are only 16, that will take another two years.  Perhaps, by then you will have enough flying time to be serious about being a CAP pilot.  In the meantime, keep flying and try not to inflate your qualifications.

Actually no, I said when I turn 17 those (100-110 TT, 25 Mountain PIC w/Instrument rating etc) will be my qualifications. And how do I know that? As I stated before I have 45 hours TT 7 hours PIC mountain. My PPL requirements are done and I'm half way through my Instrument requirements.

[C172N]

And I also stated under my last post "So yeah, I believe my estimates (for my "future qualifications")are correct and I just started flying in May"

[Eclipse]

Beating you up here isn't going to welcome you into the fold, but the fact of the matter is that you did not present your qualifications in your
original post as "estimates".

Your only option today is to join as a cadet and experience the rich opportunities that provides, including many that are directly flight related.

With the hours and experience you already have, you could probably attend one of the flight academies and solo that week for 1/3 of what it would cost you to do it on the street, while at the same time being immersed in our leadership and aerospace curriculum and programs.

[C172N]

Ok, so let's get off this hour/experience non-sense.

What are some of the things CAP offers...Is it like Boy Scouts of America?

Does everyone there share a passion of flying?...I would join RIGHT away, but the nearest facility is a hour away from me and it would be hard to make the meetings until I get my drivers license in November. I think I will however fly to the airport and visit to talk to some members/commanders. 

[Eclipse]

NHQ's site has a lot of information: http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/html/index.htm but much of CAP is local, meaning
different things are stressed in different units.

Your best best is to have a discussion with a local Squadron CC.  Give him a call and discuss membership.

[Short Field]

Ok, so let's get off this hour/experience non-sense.

It is hard to take you seriously when we don't know what you post is truth and what is imagination.  A big word of advice:  When you talk to the Squadron Commander of the unit you plan to join, don't BS him.

[Flying Pig]

....and your squadron commander is probably not going to be real interested in you being a student pilot.  Telling everyone what you "project" your time to be is of no use to anyone.  Its a waste of time really.  There are MANY student pilots who are cadets in CAP.  You will be one of them.  You wont be "applying" to be a CAP pilot anywhere.  You will be joining as a cadet, like every other cadet and you happen to have  a student pilot license.
Obviously I dont know you, but I dont think CAP is going to be the avenue you are looking for to start racking up massive amounts of cheap hours.  But good luck.

CAP offers many things.  But individual wings and squadrons can vary dramatically.  Find your local unit and talk to the command staff.  They will be better geared to assist you with what you need.

[SABRE17]

honestly, when i joined, i was drawn in by the chance to fly, im 17 now and have more hours with my local CFI (2.7) then i do with a CAP CFI (0). there have been 2 fly days at my unit in as many years of me being there. and for a unit with out an aircraft i understand. fortunately NER command is moving to my base ( Coast Guard Station Cape Cod) so hopefully ill get a chance to fly the GA-8 or a 182 more.

fact of the matter is being a pilot in CAP is tough you really have to keep more qualifications up to date then a private pilot. when the 102nd fighter wing left there were f-15 pilots that wanted to join, then saw the amount of paperwork and check rides they needed and mysteriously got jobs with airlines and never came back to meetings.

my advice to you is join as a cadet and get some ground qualifications and your mission radio operator and other radio quals you'll be very good off when you get to be a mission pilot or even scanner. it helps the mission a lot when you have a ground team member that can read sectionals and know a little bit about how an air crew works. the inverse is the same, having ground quals makes being a scanner or observer or even pilot a little easier. 

if you want to really help your unit spread your knowledge of flight and maybe inspire some cadets to do more flying and maybe your unit will get to do more flying.

[SJFedor]

honestly, when i joined, i was drawn in by the chance to fly, im 17 now and have more hours with my local CFI (2.7) then i do with a CAP CFI (0). there have been 2 fly days at my unit in as many years of me being there. and for a unit with out an aircraft i understand. fortunately NER command is moving to my base ( Coast Guard Station Cape Cod) so hopefully ill get a chance to fly the GA-8 or a 182 more.

fact of the matter is being a pilot in CAP is tough you really have to keep more qualifications up to date then a private pilot. when the 102nd fighter wing left there were f-15 pilots that wanted to join, then saw the amount of paperwork and check rides they needed and mysteriously got jobs with airlines and never came back to meetings.

my advice to you is join as a cadet and get some ground qualifications and your mission radio operator and other radio quals you'll be very good off when you get to be a mission pilot or even scanner. it helps the mission a lot when you have a ground team member that can read sectionals and know a little bit about how an air crew works. the inverse is the same, having ground quals makes being a scanner or observer or even pilot a little easier. 

if you want to really help your unit spread your knowledge of flight and maybe inspire some cadets to do more flying and maybe your unit will get to do more flying.

I wouldn't hope to get anything other than an o-flight or two in a GA-8. We don't use them for dual, especially for cadets. Stuff on board is too expensive, that's why there's a minimum 300hr requirement for PIC.

[simon]

C172N, all your postings say to me that you want to be an airline pilot and use CAP to build time. So don't placate people here with the "Serve my Country" polama. People here on the forum, CAP members, who've been around the block, are giving you the benefit of the doubt and being nice. I'm not buying it for one second.

So let's call a spade a spade.

Flying is expensive. Really expensive. But you already know that. Getting to the stage where you can even be eligible for the airlines depends on how you do it. I have friends that have recently retired from the airlines, those that have made it in, those that are in process and some younger folks who dream of flying for a living. Everybody except the latter category will tell you that there are no easy options to the first leg-up-and-in. Most guys sit around flight schools drinking coffee and waiting for walk-in's. You want to go faster and cheaper. I have no problem with the desire. Except that if it was easy, everyone would do it.

The fact is, due to age, you won't be flying solo in a CAP plane for two years. Once you get there, pilots are only allowed four hours self-funded proficiency per month. So that isn't going to fast track you to the 500, 1000 or whatever hours you need to get an interview with Pinnacle, Pacific West or whatever regional you can get into. As for funded missions, you would need additional training and review (Don't underestimate this - it is not just paying a CFI to pass you) which takes about another year after you join. Even then, funded missions only happen a couple of times a month and you would be competing with far more experienced crews for the missions.

CAP has never been a way to build time. It is almost engineered, by accident or procedure, to be that way. Otherwise, as I said, everybody would do it.

[SJFedor]

And here's my question...how do you have mountain PIC time already? Your instructor is seriously sending you solo in the mountains? 

[Flying Pig]

From C172N
Well...

I have 45 hours TT now. 7ish of that is Mountain PIC time. I'm half way through my Instrument rating and I have 4 hour dual multi engine in a 310.

So yeah, I believe my estimates are correct and I just started flying in May.

The 25hrs was another projection on his part.  C172N, Attend a CAP Mountain Flying Course in Palm Springs, CA in August and I guarantee you will erase the 7hours out of your log book that you THOUGHT was mountain time!

But you need to be an experienced Mission Pilot with the recommendation of your Sq. Commander and be accepted by the school.

I wish you the best.  I would still recommend you join CAP, shine as a cadet and see what happens.  It wont hurt you by any means.  Most of us who have been there done that just know the reality of what your looking for.

[RiverAux]

The truth is that CAP is not a place that you're going to seriously build time even if you held every pilot qualification in the book and were independently wealthy and didn't need a job and could fly all day long.  While there are opportunities for funded flying they are not going to be that great.  On average, most CAP airplanes are flown only about 15-20 hours a month in total.  In my wing a pilot probably spends 2-3 times as much time on other CAP activities as they spend in the air on funded missions, so if they're lucky they might get 2-3 funded hours a month in a good month. 

[simon]

Right on the money, RiverAux.

[Flying Pig]

I think we are talking to ourselves.   Kid hasnt been back in 3 days.

[bosshawk]

We could always roll it over into a uniform thread.

[DakRadz]

Yeah... And he says it'd be hard to drive to the facility before he gets his license, but he can fly there? Sounds like he's trying to impress. Details, little and large, just aren't adding up...

Check yourself for GSW, this seems to have been a prolonged drive-by.


So what are appropriate times to wear the flight suit? And what should you achieve before wearing?

[SarDragon]

So what are appropriate times to wear the flight suit? And what should you achieve before wearing?

A. When flying.

B. Trainee status as an MS.

[Short Field]

You took the bait and now the cadet is rolling on the floor laughing about how he turned this into a uniform thread...

[HGjunkie]

 :clap:

Oh boy that was funny.

[N Harmon]

Pilots are only allowed 4 hours a month of self-funded proficiency flying?

[Al Sayre]

...Snip

The fact is, due to age, you won't be flying solo in a CAP plane for two years. Once you get there, pilots are only allowed four hours self-funded proficiency per month.  ...Snip...
As for funded missions, you would need additional training and review (Don't underestimate this - it is not just paying a CFI to pass you) which takes about another year after you join. Even then, funded missions only happen a couple of times a month and you would be competing with far more experienced crews for the missions.

Not sure where this is coming from, but it's not 60-1.  As a cadet you can take self funded primary training in CAP Aircraft and solo and do a CAPF5 when you are 16.  What you can't do is pay your instructor for the lessons in a CAP aircraft.  When you are 17, you can get your PPL and CAPF5 and fly CAP aircraft (just not with other cadets and no AFAM's until you turn 18).  At 18 you can fly AFAM's as PIC provided there are no cadets on the flight crew.  In fact I have a C/Amn who is already a PPL and checked out in C172 and C182/G1000 and just submitted his brand new Commercial license  and CFI ticket for validation.

[simon]

I'm not talking about your cadet. I'm talking about this guy. No CAP CFI is going to train him to fly for free just to see him skip off for the airlines as soon as he has what he wants.

[DakRadz]

Hit. And. Run.

Please don't fight amongst each other; obviously genius has gone on, if he ever existed to the extent he claimed.

Oi, Mike! We got GSW here, need a modic to lock the place down!

[simon]

Fair enough. My comments were not intended to be combative.

But I have to ask...what's GSW?

[DakRadz]

Didn't mean to accuse, though I did, a bit.

Mostly hoping that everyone would avoid that level. "Gun Shot Wound" Being that the guy did a driveby to get us all riled up.

No point in even a "discussion" since the board as a whole pretty much called the guy out on his foundation of "accomplishments"

Now, let's all gather 'round for a soothing verse of "Kum Ba Yah" as we drink some tea to calm us down from our troll experience.

Everyone who posted here, or read this topic, has no excuse for not checking under the bridge before crossing from now on.

[Short Field]

As a cadet you can take self funded primary training in CAP Aircraft and solo and do a CAPF5 when you are 16.  What you can't do is pay your instructor for the lessons in a CAP aircraft. 

The real trick is to find a CAP CFI willing to provide instruction for free.  Several of our local CAP CFIs have stopped giving instruction in CAP aircraft because they are full time CFIs and giving free lessons just takes money out of their pockets. 

[simon]

I agree.

I progressed as fast as I wanted through FAA private, instrument, commercial etc., because the relationship with the instructor was straight business.

Getting to be a CAP Mission Pilot has, even after I had my FAA ratings, has been a two year slog because the check pilots, many who have regular non flying jobs and families, have to sacrifice their time for free. Personally, I wince having to ask favors for training and check rides. I'd rather just pay. My view is that unpaid CFI's hamstrings CAP's ability to get enough good aircrew and keep them current.

At the same time, I doubt the Air Force would run with allowing CFI's to be paid.

[Eclipse]

Getting to be a CAP Mission Pilot has, even after I had my FAA ratings, has been a two year slog because the check pilots, many who have regular non flying jobs and families, have to sacrifice their time for free. Personally, I wince having to ask favors for training and check rides. I'd rather just pay. My view is that unpaid CFI's hamstrings CAP's ability to get enough good aircrew and keep them current.

Yeah, lots of us do.  We're referred to as "volunteer members", and we all bring our skills to the table for free, and spend time away from our families.  Pilots are no different than accountants, lawyers, or IT people.  You're not asking them for a "favor", you're asking them to do their job.

You shouldn't feel any worse asking a CAP check pilot to do his job than you would asking the FM to process a reimbursement check, or the ESO to show you how the L-Per works.  That pilot wants to be there, and accepted the responsibility, if he's a PITA about scheduling
a check ride, he doesn't deserve the job.

[simon]

How do you have a regular non flying job, a family and act as a CAP check pilot and still have the time to make 9,000 posts?

Even Sarah Palin doesn't have that much time.

[vento]

How do you have a regular non flying job, a family and act as a CAP check pilot and still have the time to make 9,000 posts?

Even Sarah Palin doesn't have that much time.

Didn't Capt Sulu once said: "If it's important to you, you make time for it..." or something to that effect? 

[Flying Pig]

Guys.....hes gone.  Let it goooooooooo.