"Elite" ES Teams or Advanced, Advanced Training

Started by ELTHunter, November 18, 2006, 03:33:19 AM

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ELTHunter

Back before I ever joined CAP, I have heard rumors of "elite" ES teams being formed.  Call them Ranger teams or whatever.  How many Wings/Groups out there have such teams?  What are the criteria for being in them?  How do you use them?

If you were going to put together a training program for a "Ranger" type school, what would it consist of?  I'm not talking another Hawk Mountain, just a school where you could collect "the best of the best" ground team members in your Group/Wing, and train them to a little higher standard than just what the ES curriculum outlines.

I'd like to caveat this however, by saying that the main complaint I have heard about this type of program has been that it culls out a special group of members that get preference on missions.  This isn't my line of thinking at all, but rather a way to train up some ground team members to the highest technical and physical standards possible and the send them back to their regular units to inculcate them and make them better also.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

arajca

Sounds great in theory, but I haven't seen this idea work in CAP. The typical result I have seen is either the new "ES God" tries to beat his/her new found godliness into the unit only to find that the unit doesn't want it or the specialist decides the unit is untrainable because the commander decides the standard is the first goal and puts off the advanced or 'more high speed' training until the unit meets the standard, which isn't fast enough for the specialist.

The main issue I have seen boils down to the unit not having a firm enough grasp of the basics and being fully up to standards before doing the 'high speed' stuff, which frustrates the ES specialist(s).

DNall

Quote from: ELThunter on November 18, 2006, 03:33:19 AM
This isn't my line of thinking at all, but rather a way to train up some ground team members to the highest technical and physical standards possible and the send them back to their regular units to inculcate them and make them better also.
So pretty much like Ranger School in the Army then. The objective there is to put outstanding soldiers thru a tough training course w/ advanced training & then send them back out to units to teach & generally raise the bar. That also being the place from which people are selected to go on to a second round to qualify for the regiment.

It's not a bad idea in theory. Certainly you can do something like Hawk or our GSARSS down here or the few other programs out there. That accomplishes the first half of your objective. On the back end, there is a need to cull out & stand up an advanced level team which could be use such a course as a prereq/tryout of sorts. At one point we were talking about a pretty advanced disaster response go team w/ combined ground/air arms & organic mission support/command & control run off a mobile command center bus type thing. Pretty cool idea that would cost a ton. It came with a vision for distributing the equipment & primary/backup crews. It's something that can easily work in CAP, but the price tag is big enough that you can't and it to everyone so you do need a fairly high level team tasked to it.

The problem with anything elite or exculsive in any way in CAP is that it VERY quickly turns into a political popularity contest & the gear does not go to the best people for the job, but is instead mismanaged by trying to keep to many & the wrong people qual'd so that if you really do have to call out for a big one again you end up w/ people that can't go &/or can't function when they get there. The few cases where you see CAP involved in such front line duty (Florida Recon for example) are managed entirely by outside agencies (the state EMA in that case) that don't care about our internal BS.

No, I think you have to take a broad approach w/ CAP unless & until the org is reorganized along more professional & accountable lines at every level - so not soon, but hopefully some day.

shorning


RiverAux

At least as far as SAR I'm pretty happy that a ground team that has actually done all the tasks as specified in the task guidebook is adequately trained to participate in SAR missions.  I don't think anything beyond that is really necessary as far as the training they do with the caveat that we can't really have too many people with more advanced medical training.  

Could they do more practice missions sure?  Sure, but they don't need any real special skills beyond what we're asking of them.  

If some squadron wants to take it further and start doing extra physical training, etc., go right ahead.  But I don't see it as a CAP priority.  

Before we start creating super duper ground SAR teams we need to institute some basic disaster relief doctrine and training for our ground teams.  I'm not really sure what that might consist of myself but we can't just rush groups of people to a disaster area with no clear mission or training for what they're going to do.  

RiverAux

QuoteYou mean you've never heard of these guys:  122nd Special Operations Squadron

This is a joke, right? That "history" is complete BS.

shorning

Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2006, 04:25:04 AM
QuoteYou mean you've never heard of these guys:  122nd Special Operations Squadron

This is a joke, right? That "history" is complete BS.

You tell me...

Pylon

Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2006, 04:21:34 AM
Before we start creating super duper ground SAR teams we need to institute some basic disaster relief doctrine and training for our ground teams.  I'm not really sure what that might consist of myself but we can't just rush groups of people to a disaster area with no clear mission or training for what they're going to do. 

:clap:

I agree more disaster preparedness, humanitarian relief, and state emergency assistance type training would be an excellent compliment to our emergency services training repertoire.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

lordmonar

I don't have any problems with wings/region/national having training to make some very competent ES guys so they can take back their knowledge to the units.

The problem is that many people thinks that mean you have to train your ES guys to parachute and rappel out of helicopter and a thousand other things that have nothing to do with training your basic everyday GTM1-3.

As has been said before.  Sure....form an elite team that become the training cadre for the wing.  But their "elite" training should be on how to be great instructors and more in-depth knowledge of the task in the task guides.  They don't need any skills not listed in the guide, just expert level knowledge of those skills.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ELTHunter

Quote from: lordmonar on November 18, 2006, 06:54:44 AM
As has been said before.  Sure....form an elite team that become the training cadre for the wing.  But their "elite" training should be on how to be great instructors and more in-depth knowledge of the task in the task guides.  They don't need any skills not listed in the guide, just expert level knowledge of those skills.

That was kinda my thinking.  I'm just developing this idea at the moment, and thought I might get some good input from others on this forum.  What I was thinking was taking the same tasks from GTM1,2&3 and training on them to a more challenging scenario than you'd normally do with people that are just learning them.  One of the problems I see with the way we normally train is that, due to newer people always coming in or progressing from lower levels of qualifications, we tend to always be training on the lower end of the scale for each qualification level.  What I have in mind is taking folks that have shown real competence and experience with GTM 2 & 1 levels and putting them in a more demanding training evolution than you could do with folks that are just moving into those levels.

I'd also add a little more challenging level of fitness requirement because I think that is one area that CAP is lacking in.  Not that I think we all ought to be able to run a confidence course in record time, but I think a lot of our ground team members are probably in marginal physical condition for a really challenging back country mission.  With no real Officer PT program, it seems like we need something to get people motivated to get in or stay in better physical condition.

The upside to the type of training program I am talking about is that, in addition to putting more highly trained people back into the squadrons to mentor and help raise the training level generally, I would, as a Group ES officer, have a list of people I knew where highly qualified in case we needed to send people in a more demanding situation than we normally face.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

RiverAux

That sounds reasonable. 

The trick with having a group of "elite" in CAP is that due to the volunteer nature of the organization you can't actually count on having that group of people available during an actual mission.  You may get a couple of "elite" and a bunch of brand new GTMs or trainees.  That being said, it certainly doesn't hurt anything to have those few experienced people in the team.

arajca

Sounds more like setting up GTM 1 & 2 level training, not setting up an 'elite' team.

DNall

Right, seems like we're talking about two things. A great instructor training program that has implications across ES to PD & AE too. I understand that's already being worked on. And secondly, a corps of advanced operators - first responders if you will - that lead the way into major disasters & such for others to follow. That's actually a good idea too. It's a way to make best use of limited funds for advanced equipment & get CAP into critical front line roles right at the begining, then follow on with the stuff we have been doing performed by our traditional GTMs. The problem with going that route is more that CAP does a bad job managing personnel & it quickly turns into a political process. So, it's best to put that off or let it be run by outside agencies.


JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: shorning on November 18, 2006, 04:30:11 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2006, 04:25:04 AM
QuoteYou mean you've never heard of these guys:  122nd Special Operations Squadron

This is a joke, right? That "history" is complete BS.

You tell me...

Whoa!  I LOVE those guys!

I don't even smoke and I want one of their Zippo lighters!

You won't find them in no double-breasted uniform!  Those guys are REAL VOLUNTEERS!
Another former CAP officer

JohnKachenmeister

Only one of their links work, except the links to NHQ, CA Wing, and PAC Region, and the other one that works hooks you up to the "7th Special Operations Squadron, USAFX," more REAL AMERICAN HEROES!!!!!!!

Excuse me for a while, but I'm gonna try to on-line transfer to these guys.  They're a real unit!  I like the M-60 mounted out the window of the Skymaster!

And we've been talking about mounting LOUDSPEAKERS!  Man, are WE missing the boat, or what!

Another former CAP officer

SJFedor

Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: SJFedor on November 26, 2006, 03:44:49 PM
Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.
Another former CAP officer

Matt

Quote from: SJFedor on November 26, 2006, 03:44:49 PM
Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

Well, with that particular "guarding" the password is simply the next page's HTML address... i.e. captalk.net/index.htm index would be the password.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

TankerT

Quote from: Matt on November 29, 2006, 05:22:38 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on November 26, 2006, 03:44:49 PM
Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

Well, with that particular "guarding" the password is simply the next page's HTML address... i.e. captalk.net/index.htm index would be the password.

/Note to self... make sure we take good care of Matt so he doesn't have the desire to hack us...

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

pixelwonk

Quote from: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 08:24:26 PM

/Note to self... make sure we take good care of Matt so he doesn't have the desire to hack us...

Oh, Matt has hacked the site so often it's time to put him on staff.  :)

floridacyclist

Isn't that how it normally is with hackers? Hack a company's website, then offer to join their security team and show them how to protect themself?
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org

davedove

Quote from: floridacyclist on December 08, 2006, 02:55:29 PM
Isn't that how it normally is with hackers? Hack a company's website, then offer to join their security team and show them how to protect themself?

Actually, I always heard it in the opposite direction.  The hacker gets caught and the company makes an offer, "Take a job with us to stop others from hacking our site, or we press charges."
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

Johnny Yuma

Quote from: ELThunter on November 18, 2006, 03:33:19 AM
Back before I ever joined CAP, I have heard rumors of "elite" ES teams being formed.  Call them Ranger teams or whatever.  How many Wings/Groups out there have such teams?  What are the criteria for being in them?  How do you use them?

If you were going to put together a training program for a "Ranger" type school, what would it consist of?  I'm not talking another Hawk Mountain, just a school where you could collect "the best of the best" ground team members in your Group/Wing, and train them to a little higher standard than just what the ES curriculum outlines.

I'd like to caveat this however, by saying that the main complaint I have heard about this type of program has been that it culls out a special group of members that get preference on missions.  This isn't my line of thinking at all, but rather a way to train up some ground team members to the highest technical and physical standards possible and the send them back to their regular units to inculcate them and make them better also.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?

I'm going to create flames, but here it goes...

Speaking as a graduate of a "Ranger" type program, there are a number of legitimate problems I have with the "Ranger" concept in CAP:

1.   The existing Ranger school(s) out there do not provide anything better or new in the way of training than the "non-Ranger" schools, like GSAR at Atterbury or the number of Wing/Region Es academies and encampments.

2.   The "Ranger" attitude that some of the graduates and staff return with (albeit the minority) make them hard to work with and at times unmanageable. A good example was documented in the Katrina AAR that was distributed around several months back. This (along with #1 above), is the reason most schools have been disbanded.

3.   The "Ranger" programs do not provide anything in the way of training that is recognized by anyone else in the SAR/ES community. Ranger1/2/3 ratings don't coincide with SARTECH levels nor does a little tab of cloth that says FIELD MEDIC give you any credit recognized as first aid, First Responder, etc.

4.   Every graduate of a Ranger type program I've seen has returned physically and mentally exhausted, unable to participate in an ES mission for at least a week. Now IF the training were superior to that of other non-Ranger schools AND provided some training recognized by the rest of the world I could live with that, but it doesn't (for now). BTDT.

At this point, I don't see any specific good in a CAP Ranger program as it's being done now. However, this can be changed by doing the following:

1.   One National program run by Wing and Region ES/OPS staff from all 52 wings in conjunction with NASAR    and other recognized SAR professionals.

2.   Qualifications to attend would be completion of GTM1/2/3, graduate of basic and advanced GSAR, completion of ICS 100,200, 700 and 800 and either a certified EMT or First Responder in your state of residence (for those who age qualify) or completion of a legitimate advanced first aid course provided by someone like ARC, AHSA or like organizations. I'd also add local qualification as CERT in your locale as well.
Selection to the school would be by a committee of Wing and Region ES/OPS staff based on competencies and attitude.

3.   The school would be a full 2 weeks focussing on Wilderness and Urban SAR, completion of NASAR SARtech levels 1-3, completion of NASAR instructor/facilitator ratings as well as the new FEMA NIMS qualifications for SAR. Classrooms on ICS review, working with other agencies, and tabletop review of actual SAR missions would also be conducted to learn what went right and wrong.

4.   No one would leave the school with rating or qualifications that aren't recognized by the rest of the industry. The attitude one would be engrained is the same Ranger attitude that the mission comes first and that the skills learned there make me a tool to teach others, not for hero worship.

5.   The school would be named somethign other than a Ranger school. Something more along the line of CAP interagency SAR program. Selection, attendance and graduation from the school alone would stand out more than anything else in CAP's Es program. Girl scout hats, ascots, white pistol belts over BDU's and fancy pieces of cloth sewn over your name tag are donated to the San Francisco Pride March committee for their parade color guard.


Johnny Yuma




"And Saint Attila raised the Holy Hand Grenade up on high saying, "Oh Lord, Bless us this Holy Hand Grenade, and with it smash our enemies to tiny bits. And the Lord did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs, and stoats, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and lima bean-"

" Skip a bit, brother."

"And then the Lord spake, saying: "First, shalt thou take out the holy pin. Then shalt thou count to three. No more, no less. "Three" shall be the number of the counting, and the number of the counting shall be three. "Four" shalt thou not count, and neither count thou two, execpting that thou then goest on to three. Five is RIGHT OUT. Once the number three, being the third number be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade to-wards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuffit. Amen."

Armaments Chapter One, verses nine through twenty-seven:

floridacyclist

#23
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on December 09, 2006, 04:57:44 PM
I'm going to create flames, but here it goes...

Nope, not gonna flame you, but I do think that you are making several erroneous statements (as well as presenting some good ideas).

Quote

Speaking as a graduate of a "Ranger" type program, there are a number of legitimate problems I have with the "Ranger" concept in CAP:

1.   The existing Ranger school(s) out there do not provide anything better or new in the way of training than the "non-Ranger" schools, like GSAR at Atterbury or the number of Wing/Region Es academies and encampments.


Maybe not, but the kids enjoy it  and it makes them feel proud and special. If nothing else, they learn the true meaning of "esprit de corps". There is nothing wrong with them learning and maintaining a high level of motivation to go along with their increase in technical skills.

Quote

2.   The "Ranger" attitude that some of the graduates and staff return with (albeit the minority) make them hard to work with and at times unmanageable. A good example was documented in the Katrina AAR that was distributed around several months back. This (along with #1 above), is the reason most schools have been disbanded.


Agreed. I have ran a couple of UDF missions composed entirely of PA Rangers (they were instructors at our FL Wing Ranger School) in downtown Ft lauderdale and at Ft Lauderdale International Airport. While they may be very good at wilderness Search and Rescue, their level of common sense in regards to how one behaves around a large international airport left tons to be desired. Their attitude of superiority at times made me want to call the mission off and turn them all in for insubordination. To me, that is not an indictment on the Ranger program in general, as I've seen the same thing happen with graduates of several other National encampments as teenagers begin to think that they know everything. To an extent, that is natural, but put them in a group that thinks the same way and they become insufferable. Perhaps classes in human relations would help.

Quote

3.   The "Ranger" programs do not provide anything in the way of training that is recognized by anyone else in the SAR/ES community. Ranger1/2/3 ratings don't coincide with SARTECH levels nor does a little tab of cloth that says FIELD MEDIC give you any credit recognized as first aid, First Responder, etc.


Neither does GTM1, 2, or 3, GTL, or GBD, which is what Ranger levels do correspond to. Field Medics aren't supposed to take care of the victims anyway, their sole responsibility is to get the team to and from the scene of the event. Needless to say, they quickly become world-recognized blister experts :)

Quote

4.   Every graduate of a Ranger type program I've seen has returned physically and mentally exhausted, unable to participate in an ES mission for at least a week. Now IF the training were superior to that of other non-Ranger schools AND provided some training recognized by the rest of the world I could live with that, but it doesn't (for now). BTDT.


Maybe they should have been in better shape before Ranger school rather than using the school itself to get in shape. Mine came back (I sent 2 to Hawk this past Summer) just fine. They learned what it was like to push the envelope physically and mentally, which is what a real SAR mission can do to you, and they also learned that they can take it. If your friends thought that Hawk was tough, wait till they're faced with a real-world SAR mission like the recent search for James Kim. Mine also came back with almost all their GTM stuff signed off on and ready, willing, and able to instruct the other cadets with no downtime as we had a UDF Train-the-trainer session that following weekend that they helped plan, put together, and instruct at.

Quote

At this point, I don't see any specific good in a CAP Ranger program as it's being done now. However, this can be changed by doing the following:

1.   One National program run by Wing and Region ES/OPS staff from all 52 wings in conjunction with NASAR    and other recognized SAR professionals.


A national curriculum would be good, but I do think it should be more accessible by being taught in all states or at least all regions instead of requiring half the cadet's yearly salary in airfare just to get there (and the other half to return home on), and it should take into account regional differences. Mountain rescue techniques are pretty useless here in the swampland, but it is good to know how to stay dry when it's 30degrees or to avoid heatstroke.

Quote

2.   Qualifications to attend would be completion of GTM1/2/3, graduate of basic and advanced GSAR, completion of ICS 100,200, 700 and 800 and either a certified EMT or First Responder in your state of residence (for those who age qualify) or completion of a legitimate advanced first aid course provided by someone like ARC, AHSA or like organizations. I'd also add local qualification as CERT in your locale as well.
Selection to the school would be by a committee of Wing and Region ES/OPS staff based on competencies and attitude.


Wow...you really don't want anyone to go do you. While I agree that these are admirable goals to reach, I think that a program like this should help you get there, not be available only to those who have made it. I think those would make excellent qualifications for one of the entry-to-mid-level certifications in addition to whatever GT stuff is added on in the school.

Quote

3.   The school would be a full 2 weeks focussing on Wilderness and Urban SAR, completion of NASAR SARtech levels 1-3, completion of NASAR instructor/facilitator ratings as well as the new FEMA NIMS qualifications for SAR. Classrooms on ICS review, working with other agencies, and tabletop review of actual SAR missions would also be conducted to learn what went right and wrong.


NASAR is great...I am trying to get our local Ground teams certified in those as well and would like to incorporate some of their training/testing in our North Florida Ranger School. As for making it go two weeks, motivated or not, it is very difficult for many people to get two weeks off from work in a row. It's that old volunteer thang you know where good intentions and hearts of gold don't pay the mortgage.

Quote

4.   No one would leave the school with rating or qualifications that aren't recognized by the rest of the industry. The attitude one would be engrained is the same Ranger attitude that the mission comes first and that the skills learned there make me a tool to teach others, not for hero worship.


It's not about hero worship, it's about learning skills and passing them on to others. As far as skills being recognized by others, we have operated for years on skill ratings that make no sense to anyone else except us. Where else do you find a GTM3 or UDF team member? Yes, I do think that incorporating NASAR standards would be a good thing, just don't act like this is a problem only within the Ranger school. It's CAP-wide.

Quote

5.   The school would be named something other than a Ranger school. Something more along the line of CAP interagency SAR program. Selection, attendance and graduation from the school alone would stand out more than anything else in CAP's Es program. Girl scout hats, ascots, white pistol belts over BDU's and fancy pieces of cloth sewn over your name tag are donated to the San Francisco Pride March committee for their parade color guard.


It's been Ranger school for over 50 years now, which I guess is probably longer than either of us has been on the face of this earth. It's not good to mess with tradition. Improvements are fine; I myself have ben looking into the possibility of developing a communications track to go alongside the medic track...maybe we'll turn our comm encampment into something along those lines.

As far as fancy uniform items, I can think of many others belonging to other groups that make even less sense, but they do set a unit apart and give participants something tangible and visible to earn and be proud of. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments as long as you can back it up with knowledge and skills.

Incidentally, my kids have already finished all their FEMA courses plus their MRO, UDF, and GTM 3, 2, and 1; they are slated for ICS 300 and 400 this Spring. I credit this sudden motivation to Hawk Mountain as before they went, they were only lackadaisical about advancing in anything in CAP. The true value of Ranger-type programs lies not only in their ES skills training, but also in their motivational approach that  I have seen as truly life-changing. Of course, those who have negative attitudes to start with will probably not get much from a program like this.

BTW..come on down to Tallahassee for MLK weekend. We can have some fun in the swamp.

http://www.rideforfatherhood.org/Ranger_Ops_Orders_1-13-07.pdf
Gene Floyd, Capt CAP
Wearer of many hats, master of none (but senior-rated in two)
www.tallahasseecap.org
www.rideforfatherhood.org