"Elite" ES Teams or Advanced, Advanced Training

Started by ELTHunter, November 18, 2006, 03:33:19 AM

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ELTHunter

Back before I ever joined CAP, I have heard rumors of "elite" ES teams being formed.  Call them Ranger teams or whatever.  How many Wings/Groups out there have such teams?  What are the criteria for being in them?  How do you use them?

If you were going to put together a training program for a "Ranger" type school, what would it consist of?  I'm not talking another Hawk Mountain, just a school where you could collect "the best of the best" ground team members in your Group/Wing, and train them to a little higher standard than just what the ES curriculum outlines.

I'd like to caveat this however, by saying that the main complaint I have heard about this type of program has been that it culls out a special group of members that get preference on missions.  This isn't my line of thinking at all, but rather a way to train up some ground team members to the highest technical and physical standards possible and the send them back to their regular units to inculcate them and make them better also.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

arajca

Sounds great in theory, but I haven't seen this idea work in CAP. The typical result I have seen is either the new "ES God" tries to beat his/her new found godliness into the unit only to find that the unit doesn't want it or the specialist decides the unit is untrainable because the commander decides the standard is the first goal and puts off the advanced or 'more high speed' training until the unit meets the standard, which isn't fast enough for the specialist.

The main issue I have seen boils down to the unit not having a firm enough grasp of the basics and being fully up to standards before doing the 'high speed' stuff, which frustrates the ES specialist(s).

DNall

Quote from: ELThunter on November 18, 2006, 03:33:19 AM
This isn't my line of thinking at all, but rather a way to train up some ground team members to the highest technical and physical standards possible and the send them back to their regular units to inculcate them and make them better also.
So pretty much like Ranger School in the Army then. The objective there is to put outstanding soldiers thru a tough training course w/ advanced training & then send them back out to units to teach & generally raise the bar. That also being the place from which people are selected to go on to a second round to qualify for the regiment.

It's not a bad idea in theory. Certainly you can do something like Hawk or our GSARSS down here or the few other programs out there. That accomplishes the first half of your objective. On the back end, there is a need to cull out & stand up an advanced level team which could be use such a course as a prereq/tryout of sorts. At one point we were talking about a pretty advanced disaster response go team w/ combined ground/air arms & organic mission support/command & control run off a mobile command center bus type thing. Pretty cool idea that would cost a ton. It came with a vision for distributing the equipment & primary/backup crews. It's something that can easily work in CAP, but the price tag is big enough that you can't and it to everyone so you do need a fairly high level team tasked to it.

The problem with anything elite or exculsive in any way in CAP is that it VERY quickly turns into a political popularity contest & the gear does not go to the best people for the job, but is instead mismanaged by trying to keep to many & the wrong people qual'd so that if you really do have to call out for a big one again you end up w/ people that can't go &/or can't function when they get there. The few cases where you see CAP involved in such front line duty (Florida Recon for example) are managed entirely by outside agencies (the state EMA in that case) that don't care about our internal BS.

No, I think you have to take a broad approach w/ CAP unless & until the org is reorganized along more professional & accountable lines at every level - so not soon, but hopefully some day.

shorning


RiverAux

At least as far as SAR I'm pretty happy that a ground team that has actually done all the tasks as specified in the task guidebook is adequately trained to participate in SAR missions.  I don't think anything beyond that is really necessary as far as the training they do with the caveat that we can't really have too many people with more advanced medical training.  

Could they do more practice missions sure?  Sure, but they don't need any real special skills beyond what we're asking of them.  

If some squadron wants to take it further and start doing extra physical training, etc., go right ahead.  But I don't see it as a CAP priority.  

Before we start creating super duper ground SAR teams we need to institute some basic disaster relief doctrine and training for our ground teams.  I'm not really sure what that might consist of myself but we can't just rush groups of people to a disaster area with no clear mission or training for what they're going to do.  

RiverAux

QuoteYou mean you've never heard of these guys:  122nd Special Operations Squadron

This is a joke, right? That "history" is complete BS.

shorning

Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2006, 04:25:04 AM
QuoteYou mean you've never heard of these guys:  122nd Special Operations Squadron

This is a joke, right? That "history" is complete BS.

You tell me...

Pylon

Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2006, 04:21:34 AM
Before we start creating super duper ground SAR teams we need to institute some basic disaster relief doctrine and training for our ground teams.  I'm not really sure what that might consist of myself but we can't just rush groups of people to a disaster area with no clear mission or training for what they're going to do. 

:clap:

I agree more disaster preparedness, humanitarian relief, and state emergency assistance type training would be an excellent compliment to our emergency services training repertoire.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

lordmonar

I don't have any problems with wings/region/national having training to make some very competent ES guys so they can take back their knowledge to the units.

The problem is that many people thinks that mean you have to train your ES guys to parachute and rappel out of helicopter and a thousand other things that have nothing to do with training your basic everyday GTM1-3.

As has been said before.  Sure....form an elite team that become the training cadre for the wing.  But their "elite" training should be on how to be great instructors and more in-depth knowledge of the task in the task guides.  They don't need any skills not listed in the guide, just expert level knowledge of those skills.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ELTHunter

Quote from: lordmonar on November 18, 2006, 06:54:44 AM
As has been said before.  Sure....form an elite team that become the training cadre for the wing.  But their "elite" training should be on how to be great instructors and more in-depth knowledge of the task in the task guides.  They don't need any skills not listed in the guide, just expert level knowledge of those skills.

That was kinda my thinking.  I'm just developing this idea at the moment, and thought I might get some good input from others on this forum.  What I was thinking was taking the same tasks from GTM1,2&3 and training on them to a more challenging scenario than you'd normally do with people that are just learning them.  One of the problems I see with the way we normally train is that, due to newer people always coming in or progressing from lower levels of qualifications, we tend to always be training on the lower end of the scale for each qualification level.  What I have in mind is taking folks that have shown real competence and experience with GTM 2 & 1 levels and putting them in a more demanding training evolution than you could do with folks that are just moving into those levels.

I'd also add a little more challenging level of fitness requirement because I think that is one area that CAP is lacking in.  Not that I think we all ought to be able to run a confidence course in record time, but I think a lot of our ground team members are probably in marginal physical condition for a really challenging back country mission.  With no real Officer PT program, it seems like we need something to get people motivated to get in or stay in better physical condition.

The upside to the type of training program I am talking about is that, in addition to putting more highly trained people back into the squadrons to mentor and help raise the training level generally, I would, as a Group ES officer, have a list of people I knew where highly qualified in case we needed to send people in a more demanding situation than we normally face.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

RiverAux

That sounds reasonable. 

The trick with having a group of "elite" in CAP is that due to the volunteer nature of the organization you can't actually count on having that group of people available during an actual mission.  You may get a couple of "elite" and a bunch of brand new GTMs or trainees.  That being said, it certainly doesn't hurt anything to have those few experienced people in the team.

arajca

Sounds more like setting up GTM 1 & 2 level training, not setting up an 'elite' team.

DNall

Right, seems like we're talking about two things. A great instructor training program that has implications across ES to PD & AE too. I understand that's already being worked on. And secondly, a corps of advanced operators - first responders if you will - that lead the way into major disasters & such for others to follow. That's actually a good idea too. It's a way to make best use of limited funds for advanced equipment & get CAP into critical front line roles right at the begining, then follow on with the stuff we have been doing performed by our traditional GTMs. The problem with going that route is more that CAP does a bad job managing personnel & it quickly turns into a political process. So, it's best to put that off or let it be run by outside agencies.


JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: shorning on November 18, 2006, 04:30:11 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2006, 04:25:04 AM
QuoteYou mean you've never heard of these guys:  122nd Special Operations Squadron

This is a joke, right? That "history" is complete BS.

You tell me...

Whoa!  I LOVE those guys!

I don't even smoke and I want one of their Zippo lighters!

You won't find them in no double-breasted uniform!  Those guys are REAL VOLUNTEERS!
Another former CAP officer

JohnKachenmeister

Only one of their links work, except the links to NHQ, CA Wing, and PAC Region, and the other one that works hooks you up to the "7th Special Operations Squadron, USAFX," more REAL AMERICAN HEROES!!!!!!!

Excuse me for a while, but I'm gonna try to on-line transfer to these guys.  They're a real unit!  I like the M-60 mounted out the window of the Skymaster!

And we've been talking about mounting LOUDSPEAKERS!  Man, are WE missing the boat, or what!

Another former CAP officer

SJFedor

Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

JohnKachenmeister

Quote from: SJFedor on November 26, 2006, 03:44:49 PM
Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

I could tell you, but I'd have to kill you.
Another former CAP officer

Matt

Quote from: SJFedor on November 26, 2006, 03:44:49 PM
Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

Well, with that particular "guarding" the password is simply the next page's HTML address... i.e. captalk.net/index.htm index would be the password.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

TankerT

Quote from: Matt on November 29, 2006, 05:22:38 PM
Quote from: SJFedor on November 26, 2006, 03:44:49 PM
Here's what I love. When you click on the Group 36 link (SOC), you get prompted with this:

Due to operational security requirements, this portion of the site is reserved for those with proper clearance and on a need-to-know basis. Please enter your assigned password.


Do you think hosting material on freeservers.com meets operational security requirements?

$10 and a cookie to someone who can get me a password.

Well, with that particular "guarding" the password is simply the next page's HTML address... i.e. captalk.net/index.htm index would be the password.

/Note to self... make sure we take good care of Matt so he doesn't have the desire to hack us...

/Insert Snappy Comment Here

pixelwonk

Quote from: TankerT on November 29, 2006, 08:24:26 PM

/Note to self... make sure we take good care of Matt so he doesn't have the desire to hack us...

Oh, Matt has hacked the site so often it's time to put him on staff.  :)