Why don't you participate in NCC?

[cnitas]

This topic came up in another thread.  Does your squadron participate in NCC?  In not, why not?

Perhaps we can recommend some positive changes to the competition that would allow all squadrons to be a part of the event.

[NC Hokie]

I've already sent these ideas to Ned but I'll share them here.

Conduct a standard drill competition with elements of six cadets and one element leader, using a "script" that all entrants have to follow.  The smaller size makes it easier for more squadrons to field a team, and the use of standard drill with a script ensures that winning is based on doing the routine better than everyone else as opposed to spending months coming up with an innovative routine that will wow the judges and demoralize the competition.

Do it all in BDUs to minimize the uniform shenanigans (tailored blues, brand new insignia, etc.) that tend to drive the less well-to-do squadrons out of the competition.

Other ideas (that I DIDN'T share with Ned) would be to have an individual armed drill competition with the top two or three placers from each regional competition as well as a cadet SAR competition.

[Al Sayre]

No.  Did it a couple of years ago and probably won't again any time soon.

Why?

1. Time - in order to field a competetive team, it takes a massie amount of time from both the cadets and seniors and will grow to take over the entire program if you let it.  We barely have enough time to incorporate all of the current required program elements, color guard/drill team tends to eat up time in a major way.

2.  Money -  It costs a lot of money to field a competetive team.  I'm not even talking about tailored uniforms etc, simply equipping a CG with flags, poles, flag stands, rifles, harnesses, belts etc. is a sizeable investment for most squadrons in our state.  Then throw in the matching custom t-shirts, new shoes  etc. it gets pretty expensive for the parents as well.  Add in the trvel costs and now you're talking real money. 

3.  It tends to create disharmony in the unit "We're the color guard, so we're better than you", and that some cadets are excluded simply because of their family's economic circumstances. 

JMHO FWIW

[Eclipse]

Lack of consistency in competition and grading (i.e. a lot of seniors don't know the program, have "issues" with the grading, or cause logistical background noise issues which causes bad feelings and demotivates teams to return).

Too expensive (uniforms, travel, lodging, etc.)

Not enough local resources to execute weekly programs, let along competition teams.

Too difficult to get a wing-level team together because of logistics, few individual units have the numbers of interested cadets
to compete.

Contributes little to local programs outside the actual team, while taking cadets out of the "real" program for practices.
Drill teams have little value outside exhibition - at least color guards can post colors both internally and externally.

Drill teams, especially, tend to breed or exacerbate arrogance in cadets which causes other issues in the unit and elsewhere.

Like the CAC, too little emphasis from NHQ-down on why this NCC important.

[RADIOMAN015]

This topic came up in another thread.  Does your squadron participate in NCC?  In not, why not?

Perhaps we can recommend some positive changes to the competition that would allow all squadrons to be a part of the event.

We have a squadron Color Guard.  They work very hard practicing EVERY weekend. The team (which has changed yearly in composition) has won competition at the wing level, and placed at region competition.  Historically the wing & region competitions are held at our military base and we host, so there's no travel involved BUT again some expense for the cadets' parents.   I respect both the cadets & the senior members involved for their dedication in this program :clap:  I might add that we've gotten donation from groups that the Color Guard has supported the groups' ceremony. 

As far as a drill team, the wing has attempted to jump start this program again at the recent wing conference.  Some former cadets on the team gave a presentation at general assembly to include a video of the team in the winning competition (outdoors).  Additionally they had picture/scrap books right outside the assembly area.  The large number of cadets needed to staff the team would likely involve multiple squadrons.   

Personally because we are more than 85 miles from wing headquarters and there's more squadrons in the eastern part of the state I don't see us being a contributor to this program.  The cadets would have to travel 3 hours round trip each weekend.  This would be very expensive just in travel costs alone to the squadron.  Also it's doubtful that most senior members would be willing to tie up every weekend to travel & wait around during the practice.     I believe the squadron (or even wing supported) "travel" money could be better spent in running a "balanced" cadet program. 
RM

[C/Martin]

I would love to take my squadron to NCCs. As I am on my AFJROTC's honor guard. Ive been two 5 competitions each having 15+ schools. But. time and money are not always on our side.

As for the color guard vs. honor guard. My AFJROTC colorguard is made up of people who are on honor guard and Ive seen this rarely in CAP.

[DBlair]

One of the big problems I find is the difficulty for a single unit to come up with enough members to join the DT, dedicate themselves, and continue with the training all the way to the competition.

Add in to the mix that CGs are used more often for local community events and that DT requires more training all year for a single (or up to 3) competition. Even if a unit has enough people, when DT and CG compete against each other in a unit for Cadets to particiate, DT ends up losing out in the end.

If DTs were organized (as some wings do) on a Group level or in smaller Wings, at a Wing level, it would pool the best from each unit and create a much larger pool of potential DT members.

As for why more Cadets don't participate in NCC, I would venture to say it breaks down to the following:
- Cost. It really is sooo much more costly than most people realize.
- Time/Effort of the extensive practices for only 1-3 competitions.
- Feeling that they don't have a chance at winning, so why bother.
- Difficulty in keeping the Cadets interested and not trickle away from the DT/CG in favor of other Cadet Program activities requiring less effort and more immediate fun.

[Nathan]

No.

The money, time, and everything has already been mentioned. But the main reason I haven't supported fielding a team was due to the sheer amount of focus that we have to take away from other things. I guess I have a pretty ...-esque mindset when it comes to the NCC.

I know that our squadron did have a color guard once, and in order to train them, we had to let them train during other activities. Training during drill time wasn't a big deal, but I had never assigned THAT much time to drill given the limited use for drill during a 2.5 hour meeting, so they ended up training through other activities, activities which I felt were probably more important than marching around and playing with rifles.

Sorry, but when I was a cadet commander, I had a job in which I ensured that the cadet program was meeting the requirements it was supposed to. At 2.5 hours a week, that means I have 10 hours total for each month to do EVERYTHING. And while I belonged to an absolutely top-of-the-line squadron, we always had things that we could improve to make the squadron better and get a little closer to the ideal.

So NCC was just never a priority for me. Maybe I just don't know enough about it, but it takes a LOT of training in skills I don't feel really reflect what the cadet program should be about. Drill and such is a PART of the cadet program, but it's a means to an end, and I just feel that, in my limited knowledge of the NCC, it causes cadets to focus WAY TOO MUCH on the means, and obstructs my ability as a commander to meet the ends back at home.

[Bluelakes 13]

All reasons given are good, but the biggest issue I see is senior member commitment.  And this is evident for many cadet activities, not just NCC.  Cadets can't drive themselves (most) and need supervision, so unless there is a senior member committed to the event, it will not happen.   The number of times I heard "team X couldn't make it because Capt. Smith wasn't available"....

I won't reiterate everything said, but having been a drill team escort for 2 years and on NCC staff for the last 3, I see all aspects of the event from teh unit to Nationals.  It is the only event that every unit can participate and the best of the best get recognized.  The only event that teaches leadership in a competitive forum. Whether the cadets go into the military or the corporate world, it's a very competitive environment and we need more of it, not less, and definitely not watered down.   It embodies all that is the cadet program - physical fitness, drill, knowledge.

I certainly understand the commitment - I gave up every weekend for almost 2 years - but I think the rewards are worth it.

Of course, I am biased.... 

[lordmonar]

I'll turn it around.....

Why should I participate in NCC?

What goals and aims of the CP does it fullfil?

[Bluelakes 13]

Well, you do not "participate" in the National Cadet Competition.  Lets stick with Color Guard because the Drill Team has its own challenges, all already mentioned.  You participate in your unit Color Guard that wants to be better, and what better way than to compete with other Color Guards. The cadets are pushed to learn more, run faster, work as a team, become a motivated leader, and understand what it means to be graded by others.  Some win, most don't.  What an excellent life lesson.  Take your lessons learned and try again.  Even for the teams that don't win their Wing Competition, they spent a lot of time studying AE, improving their mile run time, learning how to raise the Colors and present the Colors in environments that are unfamiliar.  They return to their unit being a better Color Guard.

The Cadet Competition embodies what is the Cadet Program - physical fitness, knowledge, leadership.  All qualities that that every youngster should excel at to be a better person. 

[High Speed Low Drag]

We competed in CG this year.  The Sq. spent over $500 in equipment and supplies, the CG got to each meeting an hour early to practice, and every SAT in Jan / Feb. 

I think it was worth the time, money, and effort becuase it gave the cadets something to get behind.  We plan on competing next year as well.

In general, I think it depends on the cadets.  In our Sq. the same cadets that were on CG were part of the same group that showed up every week on a second night to go through UDF/ GT training.  So if tge cadets aren't motivated, then it jsut won't work out.

I agree with all the others that drill team is pretty much an impossible goal for most units.  They tried to put together a Wing Drill team, but that didn't go anywhere.  I would think that is only possible where you have high population density and numerous squadrons that can contribute w/o the travel cost.

[Eclipse]

We competed in CG this year.  The Sq. spent over $500 in equipment and supplies, the CG got to each meeting an hour early to practice, and every SAT in Jan / Feb. 

One has to assume that much of this was general-use equipment that the unit needed as a matter of course and took the opportunity to buy?

Otherwise what could cost $500 for CG?

[High Speed Low Drag]

Rifles, protective rifile cases, flag carriers, gloves, Sq flag, flag poles, cadet ribbons, cadet nameplates, shoulder cords

[Pylon]

We competed in CG this year.  The Sq. spent over $500 in equipment and supplies, the CG got to each meeting an hour early to practice, and every SAT in Jan / Feb. 

One has to assume that much of this was general-use equipment that the unit needed as a matter of course and took the opportunity to buy?

Otherwise what could cost $500 for CG?

I escorted a Color Guard team to our Wing competition last year.  It was the first time our Group had been represented at Wing competition in over a decade, and after going and seeing many of the potential barriers, I saw why.

Using equipment borrowed from other units, without buying a single piece of CG-specific equipment, and using the cadets' existing blues uniforms (sort of frowned upon at NCC), taking our team of 4 cadets to a 1-day event cost well over $500.  The entry fee was around $150, I believe.  Then we needed 3 hotel rooms for the cadets (2 female cadets , 2 male cadets, 2 senior members) at the HoJo across from the base.  The Wing competition was a 5+ hour drive away, and started promptly early in the morning.  Therefore, we needed to be checked in the night before, settled in with uniforms prepped, and ready to rock first thing in the AM.  The rooms cost over $300.  The gas for the CAP van (and the NYS Thruway tolls) to make that drive and back wasn't cheap either.  By the time we got done with gas, tolls, hotels, entry fees, and some basic supplies and food we were over $500 in the hole for a bare-bones, very fiscally conservative approach to CG competition.

The teams we competed against literally spent thousands of dollars.

Now, consider that *most* teams get fresh uniforms for competition, often fresh footwear too, and consider that many units wanting to get into CG competition would need to invest in Color Guard equipment (a one-time investment that can range from anywhere between $1,500 and $3,500... and some spend more).

[Eclipse]

Which brings us back to why units don't compete - though I would have issues with some of those expenses.

Certainly at the Wing-level, a unit should already have flags, rifles, and the other daily-use equipment - if not, you can borrow
someone else's.

Uniform items?  I don't see how that's a unit's responsibility, and again, these cadets should all already have uniforms, so why would new ones be needed?  A cadet whose uniform is not up to snuff is a problem 365-24x7, not just when they go to NCC.

At the point that a unit goes on to rep the Wing or Region, that Wing or Region should be fronting the capital costs, which again, should be minimal, because every wing already has flags, etc.

I guess there's not always anything that can be done to mitigate travel expenses, it is what it is, but there should be a prohibition on
the expenses on new uniforms, etc., that's ridiculous and obviously a gating factor to participation.

I am personally aware of teams that have spent 4-5 figures on this, sometimes amounts that are equal to half the wing's annual operations budget, for what amounts to a trophy and some "atta-boys" for a handful of people, while cadets all over the wing can't do encampments or flight academies because of financial reasons.

The response generally is that "Well, this was all money raised or donated specifically for the NCC...", which may help them sleep at night, but doesn't make it any less ridiculous or fiscally irresponsible.

[lordmonar]

If it is not the unit's responsibility....whoes is it?

Depending on how competitive you want to be....

Each year you should at a minimum be replacing gloves, ascots (if you use them) sholder cords.

If you want to really give the NCC a run for their money you are looking at new (tailored) shirts, new pants, new shoes, new hats.

The CG equipment, flag carriers, pistol belts should be replaced every couple of years.

Depending on the type of rifle you buy it should be replaced every 5 years or so.

If you are starting up a team from scratch you are looking at:

U.S. Flag $200+
State Flag $60+
CAP Flag $370+
Flag Poles $80+
Pole Ornament $120+
Flag Carriers $90+
Web Belts $80+
Rifles $170+
Cheap Gloves (8 pair) $16+

That is just the basic load out!

Add on top of that each cadet getting a new uniform. tailoring, new ribbons, new shoes.

Add on top of that the costs of travel to the group, wing and regional competitions.

Add on top of that the costs of actually going to the NCC (yes it is "free" but there are other costs that go into that).

NCC aint a cheap deal!


Add

[Eclipse]

But that's my point, and one that is regularly brought up on CS - its more a competition of credit cards than drill and posting colors.

As I said, I guess travel is travel - there's ways to mitigate the total, but it won't be free, regardless, but this nonsense of needing new uniforms is not cricket.

The teams should not need their own flags - at the competitions they should all use the same flags, carriers and belts - the Wing, Region, or NHQ should bear that cost.

Then its just cords and gloves - not a big deal, and the cadets should wear their regular uniforms.  I know its a constant source if angst that some teams pay hundred to have custom tailoring done, which is crazy.

[lordmonar]

If the purpose of the competition is to make the local unit's program better they need their own gear to train with and to do local ceremonies.

[Eclipse]

If the purpose of the competition is to make the local unit's program better they need their own gear to train with and to do local ceremonies.

I can't really disagree with that - but capital investments like flags and rifles should be 1-time investments made for the use of the unit
every day, not specific to the NCC or any other activity.

Treated with respect, flags and rifles should lasts a decade if not forever, and you don't need to practice with the real rifles.

I had a set of rifles that I let anyone use for anything - they lasted about a year because we had cadets who were twirling and
throwing them.  We don't do that any more, and they look like new after three years because they only come out for the real deal - everything else is done with the good-ol' blocks of wood or the broken ones.

I've got a unit that uses my flags for meetings because they don't have their own - no issue, except they can't be bothered to pay attention to the ceiling height and have broken two spear points in two years - the third new one will not be left on the flag.

[Fuzzy]

As someone who was C/CC of Drill Team up to region level. I wouldn't do it again... Or recommend it to a friend.

[NC Hokie]

If the purpose of the competition is to make the local unit's program better they need their own gear to train with and to do local ceremonies.

Training and local use gear are fine for everyday use, but you probably don't want to be using that for the region and national competitions.  The easy solution to that is to have the wing maintain a full "parade" set that remains in storage until it is needed for those competitions.

[lordmonar]

Easy solution?

Getting my wing to pay for anything related to Cadet Programs is anything but easy.

[Bayareaflyer 44]

I had the privilege to not only participate on 5 teams that made it to the NCC, commanding one of them, but also got the opportunity to win the sweepstakes twice.

In total, our squadron (yes, our team only contained individuals who were members of our squadron) won NCC 3 times, and participated in a total of 7.

Yes, it was hard.  Yes, it took an insane amount of time.  Yes, we had to beg and plead for money for uniforms, practice facilities, transportation - everything.

But would I do it again? Absolutely.  And so would the other 64 members that comprised our teams over the years. 

Why?  Because it was hard.  Because we had to be driven.  Because we had to be the best.  And that is exactly what this competition is striving to be – to give our cadets a chance to excel and compete, and bring out all those attributes that only fierce competition can inspire. 

I am still very close personal friends with many of my teammates after all these years, and we often celebrate this unique experience that only this cadet program could have provided.  We were truly blessed to have had this great opportunity.

[Pingree1492]

Bear with me here, this will be a long post. 

Some background before I start- our squadron has entered a Drill Team in the NCC competition cycle for the last three years, broken down as follows:
2007- Lost at COWG competition- beaten by Group 1 "super-team"
2008- Won COWG competition (beat the Group 1 team); Lost at Region- "super-team" from Utah
2009- Won COWG competition (beat Group 1 again); Lost at Region- same folks from Utah- they won NCC
2010- Won COWG competition; Region is April 17th, where we'll again be competing against the defending NCC Champions

Our team is made up of cadets solely from our unit, and every single year we have struggled to come up with 14 cadets that can commit to the Drill Team.  We are the 9th largest cadet unit in the NATION.  The 4th and 6th largest units in the nation (both in Colorado Springs, CO) are consistently unable to find enough cadets to field a team.  If one of the goals of the NCC is to support the local unit, and allow them to compete with each other, then the competition in its current form is failing that.

The things we struggle with:
1) Time.  As has already been mentioned, the time it takes to put together a competitive team is enormous.  Our team currently practices every Sunday, and has since December.  Unfortunately, we're competing against a team that practices for the entire weekend, every weekend.  That kind of tempo is sustainable if you have a super-team; but it puts an incredible drain on unit resources.  Many of our cadets in staff positions are on the Drill Team, so running squadron activities on the weekend becomes a problem during competition season with us.

2) Money.  We spent thousands of dollars on the competition last year.  Region will be in-state this year, so our expenses will be a LOT lower.  However, it's still going to be expensive, probably around $2000.  This all comes out of unit funds, and takes up a little over half of the operating costs for the year.  So fundraising is really important for our unit.  Fortunately, we're able to get the majority the funds we need for the year in a couple of activities. 

3) Resources.  We only have a limited number of cadets in the unit.  The number of cadets that can commit to coming to every practice on a three-plus month period is even more limited.  This year, two cadets on the team have only been in CAP since November.  This is obviously not ideal (however, one of those cadets tied for the highest written exam score in the wing competition, not too shabby!).  The cadets that are C/SSgt or above (most of the team) already have a job and leadership duties with the squadron, and we have made it as clear as possible that those duties come first.  While good for the squadron it gets in the way of drill team.

4) Facilities.  It is REALLY hard to find a place to practice volleyball for free.  Our least expensive option is paying $5 per cadet and senior to practice in the local community center every time we want to play.  Only one of our cadets has ever played volleyball outside of CAP.  The difficulties preparing for this event lessen in the summer, as we can practice outside, but that's not really an option in the winter, and not a reliable one in the spring.


With all of the negatives I mentioned, you might ask why we continue to torture ourselves year after year after year.

What our unit gets out of it:
1) Better cadets.  Obviously, our cadets can drill and wear their uniforms really well.  They also know a lot.  Their knowledge level in all aspects of the program is much higher than it would be otherwise because they have to study Leadership Vol. 1, Aerospace Modules 1-6, CAPR 52-16, CAPM 39-1, CAPP 52-18 and AFMAN 36-2203 for the competition.  They're already studying for everything up to their Mitchell, which is a good thing.

2) Leadership experience.  The drill team commander is the obvious beneficiary here.  There is A LOT riding on the performance of the Cadet Team Commander in every single drill event.  If he/she screws up even a little bit, it can cost the team that event.  Leadership under that kind of pressure is a great thing to experience (yes, I'm well aware that the NCC isn't the only venue in the cadet programs that offers that).

2) CPFT improvements.  Because they have to run the mile for the competition, some of our cadets find the motivation they need through drill team to improve their mile run times so that they actually pass their CPFT.  I just wish they'd keep that motivation through the rest of the year, but guess we have to start somewhere...

3) Teamwork.  This is an incredible teamwork experience for the cadets.  They get to experience the team bonding that occurs with close competition, and putting 4 cadets in the same hotel room overnight.  In all seriousness, they also get to experience dealing with the negatives of forming close-knit teams.  Working in Drill Teams, or Color Guards up to the NCC is a unique experience in CAP.  The team's ability to deal with adversity, disagreement, and personality conflicts will make or break the experience.    It's not like encampment, where you work closely with a group of people for a week, then go back to the real world.  Or Ground Teams- where it's a high-intensity, short-term situation, again, you are only dealing with those same people for a short time.  In drill team, you're spending A LOT of time with the same people over a long period of time, and you HAVE to learn to work together or not at all.

4) Maturity.  Many of our cadets have never been to an encampment, so this is the first experience they have taking trips away from their families.  Unlike encampment, they have a MUCH higher degree of personal freedom in what they do with their time, especially when competition is over.  In the past, we've seen a bit of an increase in the maturity and personal confidence in the cadets after they went to Region.  It's not huge, but enough to be noticeable.

5) Fun.  After all the stress, anxiety and anticipation are over, the competition itself is a lot of fun.  It's a great way to meet cadets from all over the wing, region and nation.  Because it is a fun thing, it also makes it easy to teach lessons about competing and sportsmanship that will last a lifetime.


Overall, competing in the competition is a great experience for cadets, and one I highly encourage as many as possible to do.  I believe with some simple improvements to the competition itself, more units, and therefore more cadets can take part in this awesome activity. 

[Pingree1492]

How I would change the Drill Team Competition to make it easier for single squadrons to compete:

In-Ranks Inspection:  I really like the suggestion that was made at the NEC this year of changing the In-Ranks Inspection to a knowledge-type event.  Basically, this would mean picking a few cadets at random from each team, and then putting them in a room.  In a bag would be a number of different ribbons, and another bag would contain a few different ribbon racks.  Several options for grade insignia and specialty devices would also be available, along with a blank blues shirt.  The cadets would then be given a description of "Cadet Doe's" accomplishments in CAP and given XX amount of time to properly configure his/her uniform.  I like this idea because it forces every cadet in the team to learn how to put together the uniform (both male/female, officer/enlisted, etc. etc.) well.  It also eliminates a significant cost factor to the event in having to buy and maintain "inspection uniforms" and "everything else" uniforms.

Standard Drill:  Not much to change here in my opinion. 

Innovative Drill:  By far this my cadets' favorite event.  This is the fun "hook" we use to bring the cadets into Drill Team.  I also have found that through the Innovative Drill, the cadet's standard drill performance improves.  To make it easier for smaller units to enter a team, I would maybe suggest that the maximum time limit for the routine be decreased.  You'll still get the same level of competition with 3 minute routines as you do with 5 minute routines, it will just make it easier for the "little guys" to get their foot in the door.

Written Test:  Not much to change here in my opinion.  The only change I would make is get rid of the "General Civil Air Patrol Knowledge" from the list of things that will be included on the test.  That is a ridiculously subjective thing, as what constitutes "General Knowledge" to me is going to be very different from how you interpret it. 

Panel Quiz:  I really like this event, but it is REALLY hard to get good at it.  I don't think it should be gotten rid of, but again, in the interest of helping more units create teams, I would maybe limit the areas covered to just aerospace (like with the Color Guards) or just leadership.  This again, will help the "little guys" while still preserving the competitiveness of the event.

Mile Run:  Keeper, obviously.  Though, I think the 1:30 minute deduction from female times is a little extreme (saying that as a woman).  Some equalizer needs to be made, but that's a little much.

Volleyball:  I would scrap this event.  As much fun as volleyball is, the moves that are required to play aren't highly intuitive.  I would accept either option of going with a 6 event competition, or using a replacement event.  If a replacement event is considered, I vote for ultimate Frisbee- most people can throw and catch a Frisbee.  And it leaves room to be highly competitive, as well as using all members of the team at the same time on the field.  The rules that AFROTC uses during their ultimate Frisbee competitions allow the event to be competitive while minimizing the chance of injury and keeping the playing field level between male/female and younger/older cadets.  It also doesn't require a gym or a bunch of equipment to practice it.  Plus it's a MUCH better workout than Volleyball!  And more fun.  And...


While I have a lot of Drill Team experience, I'm certainly not an expert in the Color Guard aspects, so I can't really offer any suggestions on that particular competition, other than changing the In-Ranks Inspection as I would with the Drill Team.

[Fuzzy]

In-Ranks Inspection:  I really like the suggestion that was made at the NEC this year of changing the In-Ranks Inspection to a knowledge-type event.  Basically, this would mean picking a few cadets at random from each team, and then putting them in a room.  In a bag would be a number of different ribbons, and another bag would contain a few different ribbon racks.  Several options for grade insignia and specialty devices would also be available, along with a blank blues shirt.  The cadets would then be given a description of "Cadet Doe's" accomplishments in CAP and given XX amount of time to properly configure his/her uniform.  I like this idea because it forces every cadet in the team to learn how to put together the uniform (both male/female, officer/enlisted, etc. etc.) well.  It also eliminates a significant cost factor to the event in having to buy and maintain "inspection uniforms" and "everything else" uniforms.

I don't see how you can get out of holding an old fashioned uniform inspection, even though it leads to tailored uniforms and other kinds of nonsense.  The team will be judged on how they look in one way or another anyway.

[Ozzy]

Hey guys, I suggest you read the NCC 'White Paper' that NCAC is proposing for changes to the NCC located here: http://www.cac.cap.gov/NCC%20White%20Paper.pdf

Have fun with that. 

[mbrown]

^ I found the above paper extremely valuable. I completely agreed with all of the paper except for the part about volleyball. I think there should be a team sport, but, i don't think volleyball is the right approach.

[Ozzy]

Of course. What about Ultimate Frisbee?  Its cheap, easy, you don't have to worry about varsity players, and its about running and real teamwork 

[Short Field]

Or for a real leadership challenge - flickerball.

[Ned]

Hey guys, I suggest you read the NCC 'White Paper' that NCAC is proposing for changes to the NCC located here: http://www.cac.cap.gov/NCC%20White%20Paper.pdf

Have fun with that. 

As valuable as the NCAC is, this particular product is not theirs.  It is a joint effort of the national CP staff - both corporate and volunteer.

Was there something in the paper that you particularly liked or disliked?

[swamprat86]

It doesn't address another important issue which has been mentioned here, Senior Member participation/supervison.  How are squadrons to handle this if they do not have any seniors capabable or willing to assist with the teams?  I like the ideas and I think changes are neccessary, but I don't think you are going to see the level of participation increase like he hopes.  We attempt to have units create teams to compete in the wing but we never get enough interest from units that we even get one team from a unit, so we are forced to come up with a Wing team of members from various units.  It is either that or not participate.  Which you may also see happen with the limitation on multi-unit teams.

[NC Hokie]

I like a lot of the stuff contained in the white paper but two things stand out to me:

1) What is being done for units that would like to participate in the drill competition that do not have enough cadets to field a team (or half of a team if the proposed limitation on "super teams" is enacted)?

2) IMHO, the elimination of an in-ranks inspection won't do much to curb the "new uniform syndrome" it is designed to address.  We didn't have an in-ranks inspection for our drill team WIWAC (NJROTC), but we made sure that each member had a fresh uniform and a new pair of shoes before the regional competition in the spring.  Why?  Because we didn't want to compare unfavorably with the teams we competed against.

To address my first concern, I suggest a new competition category for elements consisting of four to six in-ranks cadets and an element leader.  Use standard and adaptive drill as suggested in the white paper and fill out the competition with the tests and CPFT administered in the color guard competition.  The second concern is a bit more problematic, as there's no way to keep people from spending their own money, but limiting uniform accoutrements to rank insignia and name plates ONLY would help to curb some of the expense.

[Ozzy]

I like a lot of the stuff contained in the white paper but two things stand out to me:

1) What is being done for units that would like to participate in the drill competition that do not have enough cadets to field a team (or half of a team if the proposed limitation on "super teams" is enacted)?

2) IMHO, the elimination of an in-ranks inspection won't do much to curb the "new uniform syndrome" it is designed to address.  We didn't have an in-ranks inspection for our drill team WIWAC (NJROTC), but we made sure that each member had a fresh uniform and a new pair of shoes before the regional competition in the spring.  Why?  Because we didn't want to compare unfavorably with the teams we competed against.

Well for your first point, the white paper is proposing to allow the teams to have members from up to two squadrons. That will eliminate some of the teams where they have cadets from all over the group and/or wing. As long as the two squadrons have a combined total of 13 cadets (Like 6 from one, 7 from the other or 2/11 or 4/9 etc.), the problem that you would have, and national would never be able to eliminate, is if the cadets would be dedicated to the team and be willing to participate in it. Its to eliminate me from taking the 13 cream-of-the-top cadets from the group/wing against having a competition vs. a team of 'average cadets' from RandomTown Squadron.

The point of eliminating the in-ranks inspection is to de-emphasize having "$500 competition-only" uniforms that is prepared by an OCD person and the emphasize knowing CAPM 31-1 and CAPR 31-3 by everyone on the team and how to apply is to a uniform.

As to senior member supervision, the white paper only seems to be stipulating about limiting cadets from different squadrons, not seniors from other squadrons and/or groups. If you can't get senior supervision from the two squadrons, try to find one or some from another, and if you can't get a senior or two from the entire group/wing, thats something wrong with the seniors, not with the way the NCC program is running.

[High Speed Low Drag]

I have read the paper and it makes a lot of sense.  I completely agree with the innovative drill section and in-ranks inspection proposals.  I disagree with the elimination of “super-teams” (at least in the way described) and volleyball.

I agree that “super-teams” are a problem when they are used as a “metro-team.”  However, the elimination of “super-teams” can be detrimental to the wings (like Arkansas) that only have one squadron per a large area and do not have the population density to support multiple squadrons in a small area.  The only way Arkansas could compete in a drill-team would be to have cadets from all squadrons for a team.  We simply don’t have the geography to support a two-squadron-only drill team.  So this would effectively rule out Arkansas from ever competing with a drill team.  I think a more workable solution would be to lower the number of cadets on a team.  To what?  I don’t know.  What I do know is that even fielding half a team, plus a color guard, would take up almost all of my active cadets, and we are one of the larger squadrons in the state.

Volleyball is fun.  While share the concerns about the size/age issue, the cadets don’t worry about it.  They enjoy just playing a sport that they can have fun at.  If we substitute a TLP, that would take all of the “fun” out of the competition.  Let the kids play.  It is the one sport that all can play and physical size / age has the least impact on performance.   I am worried that if volleyball is taken out, NCC would become, in the minds of the cadet, “all work and no play.”

I am happy to see the NHQ Cadet Team working hard to improve the NCC experience.  And the publishing of white papers and putting them out for public comment is awesome.  I commend NHQ and all who are working on the program.

[lordmonar]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess about the cost effectiveness of the NCC program?

That is....is CAP getting its money worth from the program?

Is there anything we could be spending the $134K that would better benefit the cadets?

Say....offering a second COS session?
Or.....a CNCOS (Cadet NCO School)?
Or.....a West Coast NESA?

Don't get me wrong....I thing a drill competition is great....but as the white paper points out less then 10% of the squadrons participate.....and only 8 (if we eliminate super teams) actually go to the NCC....I think that if we dropped it no one would really miss it.

We can still hold wing and regional competitions and maybe even form a partnership with JROTC to participate in their competitions.

[Nathan]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess about the cost effectiveness of the NCC program?

That is....is CAP getting its money worth from the program?

Is there anything we could be spending the $134K that would better benefit the cadets?

Say....offering a second COS session?
Or.....a CNCOS (Cadet NCO School)?
Or.....a West Coast NESA?

Don't get me wrong....I thing a drill competition is great....but as the white paper points out less then 10% of the squadrons participate.....and only 8 (if we eliminate super teams) actually go to the NCC....I think that if we dropped it no one would really miss it.

We can still hold wing and regional competitions and maybe even form a partnership with JROTC to participate in their competitions.

:clap:

I must admit another worry of mine that few people seem to be bringing up as well...

EVEN if it were true that NCC was worth spending the money on, and EVEN if it were true that the cadets were truly benefiting from the ungodly amount of time spent to prepare, what is the PERCENTAGE of cadets, per squadron, that actually benefits?

If we have a squadron of about thirty cadets, and five of them are on the color guard, then the thousands of dollars that are being spent on equipment, new uniforms and shoes, and travel expenses are benefiting only those five cadets. I hate to put it like this, but is the experience that the cadets get at NCC really worth depriving the other 25 cadets at the squadron of that much money, when money isn't exactly a free-flowing commodity in CAP?

I went to a lot of cool activities as a cadet, and while I can't compare any of them to NCC, since I did not participate in it, is NCC really that much cooler than COS? IACE? NESA? What about a basic encampment? It's sickening to think how many cadets we could send to an encampment for the amount of money that some of these teams spend to "be competitive." For the $5,000 quoted in the paper, I could send approximately 40-50 cadets to an encampment. That's just not right.

Sorry, but while I understand that NCC seems to be a good leadership activity, and seems to be fun, I just haven't heard anything that convinces me that it's really worth the amount of time and money that has to be put into it, especially considering what it costs all of the other cadets who are not participating. I'd be pretty bummed if I couldn't afford to go to a NCSA, and watch five color guard members get thousands of dollars spent on pieces of wood and fresh new uniforms because their activity is apparently more important than mine.

YMMV

EDIT: I also am relieved to FINALLY see a solution proposed for the C/CMSgts who either refuse to promote or discouraged from doing so for the sake of NCC. I will say with a good deal of confidence that there is nothing the NCC can possibly offer that will beat out the opportunities one has as a C/Officer, and it is extremely frustrating for me to see ANY motivation for a cadet NOT to promote onward to the Mitchell.

[Eclipse]

If we have a squadron of about thirty cadets, and five of them are on the color guard, then the thousands of dollars that are being spent on equipment, new uniforms and shoes, and travel expenses are benefiting only those five cadets. I hate to put it like this, but is the experience that the cadets get at NCC really worth depriving the other 25 cadets at the squadron of that much money, when money isn't exactly a free-flowing commodity in CAP?

Locally I hear "The cadets raised their own money..." or "This was money donated / raised specifically for NCC...", etc.

That doesn't change the conversation one bit - in most cases CAP donations are a zero-sum game (i.e. the person making the donation
has "$x" to donate and really doesn't care where the money is used, but its a 1-stop trip to the wallet), and that money could be put to
much better use.

And the constant mention through this thread and the outside discussions is what a great personal experience NCC can be. That's wonderful, but in most cases CAP activities are more about the group benefit than the personal, COS, CLS, encampments, etc., are part of training cadets to give back to those who come next.

Activities like NCC which really only benefit the participants are fine, but not in their current proportion of time and resources.  Further, as Nathan mentions, is the resentment many non-participants have for the participants because they are viewed as "special" while giving back little to the program locally, while draining time and resources to what is really important.

[Nathan]

Locally I hear "The cadets raised their own money..." or "This was money donated / raised specifically for NCC...", etc.

And to those people, I would challenge them to convince me that the people donating thousands of dollars to NCC activities would be unwilling to donate that money to other CP programs instead. Now THAT would be interesting.

[cnitas]

As a squadron commander I have been actively looking at various fundraising projects for not just NCC, but for our squadron in general.  What I have found is that there are numerous grants available for local youth programs, but most wil not give money for 'operations'.  You must request specific items, and then justify the purchase with the goals of the giving org. 

Color Guards and Drill Teams lend themselves to these funding sources, and it does not 'take away' from the overall funds of the squadron.

I do not support pulling money out of squadron funds to buy things specifically for NCC.   

[High Speed Low Drag]

Now there are some interesting ideas.  What about doing away with the Drill Team portion and make it just a Color Guard competition?  Also, I have to agree about eliminating the career C/CMSgts from competition.

[Nathan]

As a squadron commander I have been actively looking at various fundraising projects for not just NCC, but for our squadron in general.  What I have found is that there are numerous grants available for local youth programs, but most wil not give money for 'operations'.  You must request specific items, and then justify the purchase with the goals of the giving org. 

Color Guards and Drill Teams lend themselves to these funding sources, and it does not 'take away' from the overall funds of the squadron.

So specifying "encampment scholarship" with an explanation of what an encampment is and the necessity for all cadets, regardless of financial status, to attend encampment would be poo-pooed by these sponsors?

Specifying "uniform items" and justifying that uniforms are expensive, yet all cadets are expected to wear a uniform, and then mentioning the massive morale and image boost that comes from the uniform would not be considered justification?

I dunno. As I said, I just have a hard time figuring out why a sponsor would be willing to ONLY donate to the NCC, unless they were either being deprived of information about the rest of the program, or were simply ignorant about it. I can think of a thousand different ways to justify any other aspect of the program that I would rather spend money on than the NCC.

[cnitas]

Calm down Nathan.
I never said they would 'only' donate to NCC, only that it is easier to write a grant request for specific items needed.  For instance, high quality Drill Rifles, Flags, Harnesses, etc. 

Everyone already knows what a color guard is and what they do.  Convincing a board of directors to give money to something they do not quite understand (encampment) lowers your chances of success.  And it all depends on the specific organization.  Some might want to donate to an encampment scholarship.  Others might not.

I have never tried, but I suppose I could write a grant request for 50 full sets of service uniforms and see if that gets approved by anyone. But to be honest, I do not have time to write a bunch of grant requests that do not get approved.

Another issue to consider is that there are limits on grant amounts.  How much does it cost to outfit an entire squadron?  Several thousand dollars I would imagine.  Often grants are $500 and less. 

Just enough to outfit...a color guard with completely new uniforms, or buy a completely new set of equipment.