Why don't you participate in NCC?

[cnitas]

This topic came up in another thread.  Does your squadron participate in NCC?  In not, why not?

Perhaps we can recommend some positive changes to the competition that would allow all squadrons to be a part of the event.

[NC Hokie]

I've already sent these ideas to Ned but I'll share them here.

Conduct a standard drill competition with elements of six cadets and one element leader, using a "script" that all entrants have to follow.  The smaller size makes it easier for more squadrons to field a team, and the use of standard drill with a script ensures that winning is based on doing the routine better than everyone else as opposed to spending months coming up with an innovative routine that will wow the judges and demoralize the competition.

Do it all in BDUs to minimize the uniform shenanigans (tailored blues, brand new insignia, etc.) that tend to drive the less well-to-do squadrons out of the competition.

Other ideas (that I DIDN'T share with Ned) would be to have an individual armed drill competition with the top two or three placers from each regional competition as well as a cadet SAR competition.

[Al Sayre]

No.  Did it a couple of years ago and probably won't again any time soon.

Why?

1. Time - in order to field a competetive team, it takes a massie amount of time from both the cadets and seniors and will grow to take over the entire program if you let it.  We barely have enough time to incorporate all of the current required program elements, color guard/drill team tends to eat up time in a major way.

2.  Money -  It costs a lot of money to field a competetive team.  I'm not even talking about tailored uniforms etc, simply equipping a CG with flags, poles, flag stands, rifles, harnesses, belts etc. is a sizeable investment for most squadrons in our state.  Then throw in the matching custom t-shirts, new shoes  etc. it gets pretty expensive for the parents as well.  Add in the trvel costs and now you're talking real money. 

3.  It tends to create disharmony in the unit "We're the color guard, so we're better than you", and that some cadets are excluded simply because of their family's economic circumstances. 

JMHO FWIW

[Eclipse]

Lack of consistency in competition and grading (i.e. a lot of seniors don't know the program, have "issues" with the grading, or cause logistical background noise issues which causes bad feelings and demotivates teams to return).

Too expensive (uniforms, travel, lodging, etc.)

Not enough local resources to execute weekly programs, let along competition teams.

Too difficult to get a wing-level team together because of logistics, few individual units have the numbers of interested cadets
to compete.

Contributes little to local programs outside the actual team, while taking cadets out of the "real" program for practices.
Drill teams have little value outside exhibition - at least color guards can post colors both internally and externally.

Drill teams, especially, tend to breed or exacerbate arrogance in cadets which causes other issues in the unit and elsewhere.

Like the CAC, too little emphasis from NHQ-down on why this NCC important.

[RADIOMAN015]

This topic came up in another thread.  Does your squadron participate in NCC?  In not, why not?

Perhaps we can recommend some positive changes to the competition that would allow all squadrons to be a part of the event.

We have a squadron Color Guard.  They work very hard practicing EVERY weekend. The team (which has changed yearly in composition) has won competition at the wing level, and placed at region competition.  Historically the wing & region competitions are held at our military base and we host, so there's no travel involved BUT again some expense for the cadets' parents.   I respect both the cadets & the senior members involved for their dedication in this program :clap:  I might add that we've gotten donation from groups that the Color Guard has supported the groups' ceremony. 

As far as a drill team, the wing has attempted to jump start this program again at the recent wing conference.  Some former cadets on the team gave a presentation at general assembly to include a video of the team in the winning competition (outdoors).  Additionally they had picture/scrap books right outside the assembly area.  The large number of cadets needed to staff the team would likely involve multiple squadrons.   

Personally because we are more than 85 miles from wing headquarters and there's more squadrons in the eastern part of the state I don't see us being a contributor to this program.  The cadets would have to travel 3 hours round trip each weekend.  This would be very expensive just in travel costs alone to the squadron.  Also it's doubtful that most senior members would be willing to tie up every weekend to travel & wait around during the practice.     I believe the squadron (or even wing supported) "travel" money could be better spent in running a "balanced" cadet program. 
RM

[C/Martin]

I would love to take my squadron to NCCs. As I am on my AFJROTC's honor guard. Ive been two 5 competitions each having 15+ schools. But. time and money are not always on our side.

As for the color guard vs. honor guard. My AFJROTC colorguard is made up of people who are on honor guard and Ive seen this rarely in CAP.

[DBlair]

One of the big problems I find is the difficulty for a single unit to come up with enough members to join the DT, dedicate themselves, and continue with the training all the way to the competition.

Add in to the mix that CGs are used more often for local community events and that DT requires more training all year for a single (or up to 3) competition. Even if a unit has enough people, when DT and CG compete against each other in a unit for Cadets to particiate, DT ends up losing out in the end.

If DTs were organized (as some wings do) on a Group level or in smaller Wings, at a Wing level, it would pool the best from each unit and create a much larger pool of potential DT members.

As for why more Cadets don't participate in NCC, I would venture to say it breaks down to the following:
- Cost. It really is sooo much more costly than most people realize.
- Time/Effort of the extensive practices for only 1-3 competitions.
- Feeling that they don't have a chance at winning, so why bother.
- Difficulty in keeping the Cadets interested and not trickle away from the DT/CG in favor of other Cadet Program activities requiring less effort and more immediate fun.

[Nathan]

No.

The money, time, and everything has already been mentioned. But the main reason I haven't supported fielding a team was due to the sheer amount of focus that we have to take away from other things. I guess I have a pretty ...-esque mindset when it comes to the NCC.

I know that our squadron did have a color guard once, and in order to train them, we had to let them train during other activities. Training during drill time wasn't a big deal, but I had never assigned THAT much time to drill given the limited use for drill during a 2.5 hour meeting, so they ended up training through other activities, activities which I felt were probably more important than marching around and playing with rifles.

Sorry, but when I was a cadet commander, I had a job in which I ensured that the cadet program was meeting the requirements it was supposed to. At 2.5 hours a week, that means I have 10 hours total for each month to do EVERYTHING. And while I belonged to an absolutely top-of-the-line squadron, we always had things that we could improve to make the squadron better and get a little closer to the ideal.

So NCC was just never a priority for me. Maybe I just don't know enough about it, but it takes a LOT of training in skills I don't feel really reflect what the cadet program should be about. Drill and such is a PART of the cadet program, but it's a means to an end, and I just feel that, in my limited knowledge of the NCC, it causes cadets to focus WAY TOO MUCH on the means, and obstructs my ability as a commander to meet the ends back at home.

[Bluelakes 13]

All reasons given are good, but the biggest issue I see is senior member commitment.  And this is evident for many cadet activities, not just NCC.  Cadets can't drive themselves (most) and need supervision, so unless there is a senior member committed to the event, it will not happen.   The number of times I heard "team X couldn't make it because Capt. Smith wasn't available"....

I won't reiterate everything said, but having been a drill team escort for 2 years and on NCC staff for the last 3, I see all aspects of the event from teh unit to Nationals.  It is the only event that every unit can participate and the best of the best get recognized.  The only event that teaches leadership in a competitive forum. Whether the cadets go into the military or the corporate world, it's a very competitive environment and we need more of it, not less, and definitely not watered down.   It embodies all that is the cadet program - physical fitness, drill, knowledge.

I certainly understand the commitment - I gave up every weekend for almost 2 years - but I think the rewards are worth it.

Of course, I am biased.... 

[lordmonar]

I'll turn it around.....

Why should I participate in NCC?

What goals and aims of the CP does it fullfil?

[Bluelakes 13]

Well, you do not "participate" in the National Cadet Competition.  Lets stick with Color Guard because the Drill Team has its own challenges, all already mentioned.  You participate in your unit Color Guard that wants to be better, and what better way than to compete with other Color Guards. The cadets are pushed to learn more, run faster, work as a team, become a motivated leader, and understand what it means to be graded by others.  Some win, most don't.  What an excellent life lesson.  Take your lessons learned and try again.  Even for the teams that don't win their Wing Competition, they spent a lot of time studying AE, improving their mile run time, learning how to raise the Colors and present the Colors in environments that are unfamiliar.  They return to their unit being a better Color Guard.

The Cadet Competition embodies what is the Cadet Program - physical fitness, knowledge, leadership.  All qualities that that every youngster should excel at to be a better person. 

[High Speed Low Drag]

We competed in CG this year.  The Sq. spent over $500 in equipment and supplies, the CG got to each meeting an hour early to practice, and every SAT in Jan / Feb. 

I think it was worth the time, money, and effort becuase it gave the cadets something to get behind.  We plan on competing next year as well.

In general, I think it depends on the cadets.  In our Sq. the same cadets that were on CG were part of the same group that showed up every week on a second night to go through UDF/ GT training.  So if tge cadets aren't motivated, then it jsut won't work out.

I agree with all the others that drill team is pretty much an impossible goal for most units.  They tried to put together a Wing Drill team, but that didn't go anywhere.  I would think that is only possible where you have high population density and numerous squadrons that can contribute w/o the travel cost.

[Eclipse]

We competed in CG this year.  The Sq. spent over $500 in equipment and supplies, the CG got to each meeting an hour early to practice, and every SAT in Jan / Feb. 

One has to assume that much of this was general-use equipment that the unit needed as a matter of course and took the opportunity to buy?

Otherwise what could cost $500 for CG?

[High Speed Low Drag]

Rifles, protective rifile cases, flag carriers, gloves, Sq flag, flag poles, cadet ribbons, cadet nameplates, shoulder cords

[Pylon]

We competed in CG this year.  The Sq. spent over $500 in equipment and supplies, the CG got to each meeting an hour early to practice, and every SAT in Jan / Feb. 

One has to assume that much of this was general-use equipment that the unit needed as a matter of course and took the opportunity to buy?

Otherwise what could cost $500 for CG?

I escorted a Color Guard team to our Wing competition last year.  It was the first time our Group had been represented at Wing competition in over a decade, and after going and seeing many of the potential barriers, I saw why.

Using equipment borrowed from other units, without buying a single piece of CG-specific equipment, and using the cadets' existing blues uniforms (sort of frowned upon at NCC), taking our team of 4 cadets to a 1-day event cost well over $500.  The entry fee was around $150, I believe.  Then we needed 3 hotel rooms for the cadets (2 female cadets , 2 male cadets, 2 senior members) at the HoJo across from the base.  The Wing competition was a 5+ hour drive away, and started promptly early in the morning.  Therefore, we needed to be checked in the night before, settled in with uniforms prepped, and ready to rock first thing in the AM.  The rooms cost over $300.  The gas for the CAP van (and the NYS Thruway tolls) to make that drive and back wasn't cheap either.  By the time we got done with gas, tolls, hotels, entry fees, and some basic supplies and food we were over $500 in the hole for a bare-bones, very fiscally conservative approach to CG competition.

The teams we competed against literally spent thousands of dollars.

Now, consider that *most* teams get fresh uniforms for competition, often fresh footwear too, and consider that many units wanting to get into CG competition would need to invest in Color Guard equipment (a one-time investment that can range from anywhere between $1,500 and $3,500... and some spend more).

[Eclipse]

Which brings us back to why units don't compete - though I would have issues with some of those expenses.

Certainly at the Wing-level, a unit should already have flags, rifles, and the other daily-use equipment - if not, you can borrow
someone else's.

Uniform items?  I don't see how that's a unit's responsibility, and again, these cadets should all already have uniforms, so why would new ones be needed?  A cadet whose uniform is not up to snuff is a problem 365-24x7, not just when they go to NCC.

At the point that a unit goes on to rep the Wing or Region, that Wing or Region should be fronting the capital costs, which again, should be minimal, because every wing already has flags, etc.

I guess there's not always anything that can be done to mitigate travel expenses, it is what it is, but there should be a prohibition on
the expenses on new uniforms, etc., that's ridiculous and obviously a gating factor to participation.

I am personally aware of teams that have spent 4-5 figures on this, sometimes amounts that are equal to half the wing's annual operations budget, for what amounts to a trophy and some "atta-boys" for a handful of people, while cadets all over the wing can't do encampments or flight academies because of financial reasons.

The response generally is that "Well, this was all money raised or donated specifically for the NCC...", which may help them sleep at night, but doesn't make it any less ridiculous or fiscally irresponsible.

[lordmonar]

If it is not the unit's responsibility....whoes is it?

Depending on how competitive you want to be....

Each year you should at a minimum be replacing gloves, ascots (if you use them) sholder cords.

If you want to really give the NCC a run for their money you are looking at new (tailored) shirts, new pants, new shoes, new hats.

The CG equipment, flag carriers, pistol belts should be replaced every couple of years.

Depending on the type of rifle you buy it should be replaced every 5 years or so.

If you are starting up a team from scratch you are looking at:

U.S. Flag $200+
State Flag $60+
CAP Flag $370+
Flag Poles $80+
Pole Ornament $120+
Flag Carriers $90+
Web Belts $80+
Rifles $170+
Cheap Gloves (8 pair) $16+

That is just the basic load out!

Add on top of that each cadet getting a new uniform. tailoring, new ribbons, new shoes.

Add on top of that the costs of travel to the group, wing and regional competitions.

Add on top of that the costs of actually going to the NCC (yes it is "free" but there are other costs that go into that).

NCC aint a cheap deal!


Add

[Eclipse]

But that's my point, and one that is regularly brought up on CS - its more a competition of credit cards than drill and posting colors.

As I said, I guess travel is travel - there's ways to mitigate the total, but it won't be free, regardless, but this nonsense of needing new uniforms is not cricket.

The teams should not need their own flags - at the competitions they should all use the same flags, carriers and belts - the Wing, Region, or NHQ should bear that cost.

Then its just cords and gloves - not a big deal, and the cadets should wear their regular uniforms.  I know its a constant source if angst that some teams pay hundred to have custom tailoring done, which is crazy.

[lordmonar]

If the purpose of the competition is to make the local unit's program better they need their own gear to train with and to do local ceremonies.

[Eclipse]

If the purpose of the competition is to make the local unit's program better they need their own gear to train with and to do local ceremonies.

I can't really disagree with that - but capital investments like flags and rifles should be 1-time investments made for the use of the unit
every day, not specific to the NCC or any other activity.

Treated with respect, flags and rifles should lasts a decade if not forever, and you don't need to practice with the real rifles.

I had a set of rifles that I let anyone use for anything - they lasted about a year because we had cadets who were twirling and
throwing them.  We don't do that any more, and they look like new after three years because they only come out for the real deal - everything else is done with the good-ol' blocks of wood or the broken ones.

I've got a unit that uses my flags for meetings because they don't have their own - no issue, except they can't be bothered to pay attention to the ceiling height and have broken two spear points in two years - the third new one will not be left on the flag.