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 11 
 on: Today at 02:22:32 PM 
Started by Eclipse - Last post by kwe1009
To me the idea that "Leaders eat last" means that leaders are making sure their troop are taken care of properly (meals, billeting, etc).  It does not necessarily mean that a flight commander should always eat last like others have stated.  It is a concept of servant leadership meaning to put the needs of others over your own.

 12 
 on: Today at 01:58:50 PM 
Started by Eclipse - Last post by Jester


Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

ďLeaders eat lastĒ bugs the heck out of me. Because it has become, to some people, a meaningless slogan rather than a leadership concept. There are times when leaders donít or canít eat last, but doing otherwise earns them a stink eye because the SLOGAN has been violated, even though good leadership practice has not.

Iíve seen it happen when people have shoved a bunch of cadets through the chow line, while the ďleaders eat last.Ē Trouble is, that means the cadets finish first and the leaders finish last. Somewhere along the line, time gets wasted. Cadets are left waiting or leaders have to rush for no good reason.

Also, the opportunity for leaders to conduct business over a meal gets lost when they canít get a head start, eat, meet and get back to business.

This slogan isnít engraved in stone. It speaks to a concept. That concept can be met without strictly adhering to it. Such as...having a flight sergeant go first in line, then cadets, then the flight commander (yes, there will be other lower ranking cadets behind the flight commander, violating the slogan. But if every leader waited until every cadet ate first there would be a loose pack of cadets waiting for leaders).

Anyway, itís a slogan reflective of leadership, not an inviolable rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed.  Situation dictates, be smart and apply the concept, don't sacrifice the mission to shoehorn it into some feel-good idea. 

 13 
 on: Today at 01:49:14 PM 
Started by Eclipse - Last post by Mitchell 1969
Should be required for anyone who wants a CC badge, included in the UCC curriculum, and speakers like this
should be the keynotes at Wing conferences and PD sessions.



Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

ďLeaders eat lastĒ bugs the heck out of me. Because it has become, to some people, a meaningless slogan rather than a leadership concept. There are times when leaders donít or canít eat last, but doing otherwise earns them a stink eye because the SLOGAN has been violated, even though good leadership practice has not.

Iíve seen it happen when people have shoved a bunch of cadets through the chow line, while the ďleaders eat last.Ē Trouble is, that means the cadets finish first and the leaders finish last. Somewhere along the line, time gets wasted. Cadets are left waiting or leaders have to rush for no good reason.

Also, the opportunity for leaders to conduct business over a meal gets lost when they canít get a head start, eat, meet and get back to business.

This slogan isnít engraved in stone. It speaks to a concept. That concept can be met without strictly adhering to it. Such as...having a flight sergeant go first in line, then cadets, then the flight commander (yes, there will be other lower ranking cadets behind the flight commander, violating the slogan. But if every leader waited until every cadet ate first there would be a loose pack of cadets waiting for leaders).

Anyway, itís a slogan reflective of leadership, not an inviolable rule.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 14 
 on: Today at 01:48:12 PM 
Started by Picy3 - Last post by Jester
I made a new thread to discuss intensity at encampment:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23306.0

 15 
 on: Today at 01:46:32 PM 
Started by Jester - Last post by Jester
As the esteemed esquire Ned alluded to in the other thread, we answered that question and then went off on our own azimuth regarding intensity (mostly focused on the nebulous term "yelling").  I'm pretty passionate about this stuff (encampment is my favorite part of CAP and the part I think does the most good for the most cadets) and think we would be well-served to have an in-depth discussion on it.  If a mod could pull the relevant posts from the other topic onto this one (I assume that's possible but I don't know for sure) I would greatly appreciate it.

We don't do a great job of professionally discussing things like this.  In a perfect world, the Volunteer would be more like a "professional" CAP journal where peers discuss the issues (it mainly serves to recruit the already recruited, but I digress).  So I'd like some feedback on if I'm right, wrong, or anywhere in between and why.

In a nutshell, we need to have a common definition and conditions associated with the raised voice:

- The voice is not raised to the point of injury (to the speaker's vocal cords or the listener's ear).  It also is not to be used in the immediate "bubble" of the listener.  A good rule of thumb (I think, let me know if I'm off base) is that a circle drawn around the listener with the radius being that person's arm-length is a good definition for a "bubble".

- The content is more important than the delivery volume.  Train staff in the relevant information regarding this subject (raise voice at the group, don't single out one person, etc) and this should be a non-issue.

- The raised voice is an intentional tool in the intensity toolbox.  The tools of presence, volume, expectations, and time from https://youtu.be/6GD7wf5kwu4 are an excellent guideline, along with the "Effective Training Box" model I've already stolen.  The tool is selected for a specific reason to accomplish a specific purpose.  It isn't because the cadre member is frustrated and lashing out (this requires mentorship, supervision, and training which should be happening anyway).  Remember, this is a learning experience at all levels.

- The encampment program should be a good entry-level introduction to the military training model.  This means age-appropriate.  This means varying levels of intensity appropriate to the situation.  It does not mean that the raised voice is replaced in the toolbox by Eskimo kisses because their helicopter parents don't want their precious bunnies scolded.  If a cadet never enters a training program again that uses and requires Level 1 intensity, then fine; they can do the cyber NCSAs, COS, etc to their heart's content.  If the first time they ever catch a raised voice is day one of PJOC, you've failed to prepare them. 

- I have little-to-no concern about the cultural changes in today's youth.  Life is still stressful.  100 pounds will be 100 pounds no matter what you try to do to change it.  Cadets are going to have to do some physical, emotional, and mental heavy lifting at some point.  The very least we can do for them is get them to lift the empty bar at the beginning and add appropriate excess weight to push their limits, not just say "we shouldn't lift heavy things anymore, we have cars to carry these things for us today".  Just know your people and don't add so much weight you break them.  Linear progression and progressive overload are not just weightlifting concepts. 

- Cadets want to be challenged.  Many of them join for this kind of thing.  They want to be tested.  I've overheard cadets (that weren't Superman by any stretch) complain that encampment was too easy and a letdown.  If encampment is the full immersion into the cadet experience and we nerf encampment, the cadet program is doomed to failure by logical extension. 

 16 
 on: Today at 12:51:39 PM 
Started by Picy3 - Last post by abdsp51
I could go off topic regarding the whole ďmercy sakes, donít yell or call them ĎbasicsíĒ thing but I digress.
Me too. Sad.

Ya'll need to come out of the stoneage.  Yelling is counterproductive and not neccessary..

Itís a tool, not the tool.  It can be used in an age-appropriate manner to induce stress and build mental toughness. Itís not airplane camp where everyone rolls around in a Travolta bubble, itís supposed to be difficult.

It's dated tool.  I can tell you that since I have been back in the last 6 years I have been far more successful by not yelling and by not having the cadets/cadre yell.  Different age...

 17 
 on: Today at 12:27:28 PM 
Started by Picy3 - Last post by Spam

 18 
 on: Today at 12:23:15 PM 
Started by Picy3 - Last post by Ned
As usual, once we have answered the OP's question, we have wandered off the trail a bit.  And now we are discussing "yelling" at encampment.

This is yet another visit to the Land of Internet Imprecision. (tm)

There is no rule that even suggests that is always  inappropriate to raise one's voice while participating in our terrific CP.

Indeed, the CP has used a military training model for over 70 years.  And raised voices are often found in military training situations, particularly when addressing groups or in noisy situations.

The problem comes up when we start using subjective terms like "yelling" which tend to mean different things to different people.

For some folks, any use of a raised voice means "yelling."  ("I was in front of the PT formation and I needed to yell to be heard by everyone.")

For others, "yelling" has a more limited and specific definition that depends on the facts and circumstances in each incident. ("The flight sergeant yelled at the cadet who was standing beside her in the barracks.")

This is probably one of those "I know it when I see it" situations where almost all experienced CP officers actually observing a situation will agree whether it is appropriate or not.  But those same officers will likely disagree if all they see is a subjective written description of the same incident.

That is why we require experienced and mature CP leaders to be present at all cadet activities.

But as a review, there is nothing in the CPP or elsewhere in CP doctrine that suggests that yelling is always inappropriate at encampment.  While we all certainly agree going all Full Metal Jacket on a troop (Screaming in the ear of young cadet standing by her/his bunk at inspection; using insults, etc.), is always wrong, I suspect we also all agree that encampments are fundamentally different than a squadron meeting, and encampment should not be treated like a week at the library.

Like my high school coach, I often yell encouragement to my troops during a run.  Sometimes I might speak in a loud voice when addressing the flight to emphasize a point on which they can improve.  Loud voices can be one of the tools used by a leader for teambuilding.

The CP -- and especially encampment -- is designed to be a vigorous, challenging environment using military-style leadership techniques implemented in a careful-age appropriate manner by experienced leaders. 

We do a disservice to cadets by not encouraging them to their full potential at encampment, both individually and as a team.

We sure have a lot of threads here on CT concerning military intensity levels, raised voices as a leadership tool, and when things go wrong -- hazing.

Thank you all for helping our cadets to succeed.  You are literally changing the future of this nation.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager

 19 
 on: Today at 11:11:26 AM 
Started by Eclipse - Last post by Eclipse
Should be required for anyone who wants a CC badge, included in the UCC curriculum, and speakers like this
should be the keynotes at Wing conferences and PD sessions.


 20 
 on: Today at 10:28:38 AM 
Started by Picy3 - Last post by Eclipse
At our encampment last year "no yelling" was enforced for the first time probably ever.  Many of the older cadet staff grumbled about it but here is how it was explained to them:

1. This is not basic training and you are dealing with young teenagers trying to figure out how to salute, not training young adults to go to war.
2. "If you are yelling as a leader, then you are failing as a leader" was the theme from the Senior staff. 

After the third or fourth day some cadets were still complaining but it was brought up to them that the students were better trained at that point than they usually were at graduation so obviously not yelling was a positive.  We also got rid of the "extra" staff positions that serve zero purpose like "command chief." 


Itís a tool, not the tool.  It can be used in an age-appropriate manner to induce stress and build mental toughness. Itís not airplane camp where everyone rolls around in a Travolta bubble, itís supposed to be difficult.


Where in CAPP 60-70 does it say that encampment is supposed to be difficult and induce stress and build mental toughness?  I suggest that you review para 1.1 of that document. 

I agree that encampment should not be overly easy but I don't see where yelling does any good.

+1 - all the way.

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