While there have been statements made about this in other sites on the internet, as there wasn't anything official, it wasn't really appropriate to mention it here. However, the Spring 2009 issue of the NH Wing newsletter had a column by the Wing Commander, Col. Davidson, that would consist of official confirmation of the issue: http://nhwgcap.org/_pao2/images/stories/abenakinewsspring2009.pdf
QuoteAlso during the board meeting, rather difficult discussions were held regarding several complaints that have been filed against our National Commander. I was very involved in the internal/closed debate on these issues and I feel comfortable that the end result of our discussions, deliberations and motions will benefit the entire organization. Meanwhile, General Courter is carrying on as she should, and is continuing to perform in an excellent manner as our National leader.
Some folks I know and trust confirmed essentially the same thing: Allegations had been laid, looked at and they've been found to be wanting.
IOW, there ain't much to see, move on.
Oh here we go again. What heinous sin could it be this time with a National CC?
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 18, 2009, 02:44:39 AM
Oh here we go again. What heinous sin could it be this time with a National CC?
hmmm...im curious as well ???
Since we don't know what they are, I have a GREAT idea!
Let's all speculate on what they MIGHT be. We've never done THAT here before, have we?
I heard she got a Marine Major General kicked out of his BOQ room because she pulled seniority, and then slapped down the CAP Challenge coin and he couldnt produce. This is gonna be ugly kids. We are going to be wearing High School Band uniforms before this one is over. >:D
Quote from: RiverAux on April 18, 2009, 02:28:17 AM
While there have been statements made about this in other sites on the internet, as there wasn't anything official, it wasn't really appropriate to mention it here. However, the Spring 2009 issue of the NH Wing newsletter had a column by the Wing Commander, Col. Davidson, that would consist of official confirmation of the issue: http://nhwgcap.org/_pao2/images/stories/abenakinewsspring2009.pdf
QuoteAlso during the board meeting, rather difficult discussions were held regarding several complaints that have been filed against our National Commander. I was very involved in the internal/closed debate on these issues and I feel comfortable that the end result of our discussions, deliberations and motions will benefit the entire organization. Meanwhile, General Courter is carrying on as she should, and is continuing to perform in an excellent manner as our National leader.
And you brought this up for what reason?
Tradition?
Major Lord
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 18, 2009, 02:58:23 AM
I heard she got a Marine Major General kicked out of his BOQ room because she pulled seniority, and then slapped down the CAP Challenge coin and he couldnt produce. This is gonna be ugly kids. We are going to be wearing High School Band uniforms before this one is over. >:D
While calling up the base motor pool for a staff car with the 2 star plate? :)
The way I heard it, guys, was that someone had made some allegations and the BoG elected to have the IG look at the complaints. Mind you: having the IG look at the complaints != the investigatee is even suspected of actually doing the things that its alleged were done. Its more like dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's" to ensure that whats fair is fair.
The complaints were looked at and there was no finding.
Again, nothing to see, really. Any dipstick can make an allegation. The problem is that it really gets distracting after awhile. Doesn't CAP have a mission that is not "complain about the National Commander?"
Quote from: NIN on April 18, 2009, 03:56:02 AM
Quote from: Flying Pig on April 18, 2009, 02:58:23 AM
I heard she got a Marine Major General kicked out of his BOQ room because she pulled seniority, and then slapped down the CAP Challenge coin and he couldnt produce. This is gonna be ugly kids. We are going to be wearing High School Band uniforms before this one is over. >:D
While calling up the base motor pool for a staff car with the 2 star plate? :)
...and demanded to be promoted too? :)
Yea, it seems there are so many different rumors about almost any level Commander, and because of a few bad instances, everyone (members in general, not necessarily this thread/site) seems eager to find the next juicy scandal. I have no knowledge of the situation being discussed, but since I rejoined this last year, there seems to be an overwhelming hunger for Commander-related gossip... or maybe it was always there and I was out of CAP too long to remember it. lol
I'm sure that any "complaints or allegations" will be investigated. In the mean time allow Ms Courter the privacy she deserves, rather than speculating on what the unknown allegations are. The more you bring her down, the more you bring CAP down.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 18, 2009, 02:54:12 AM
Since we don't know what they are, I have a GREAT idea!
Let's all speculate on what they MIGHT be. We've never done THAT here before, have we?
Great idea, Kach!
Hey...considering I'm in FL for the next few days, could you help me take over the wing while I'm here? Helps to have someone who knows the territory.
Quote from: JC004 on April 18, 2009, 04:15:26 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 18, 2009, 02:54:12 AM
Since we don't know what they are, I have a GREAT idea!
Let's all speculate on what they MIGHT be. We've never done THAT here before, have we?
Great idea, Kach!
Hey...considering I'm in FL for the next few days, could you help me take over the wing while I'm here? Helps to have someone who knows the territory.
lol
Down here for Sun 'n Fun, I'm guessing?
Quote from: DBlair on April 18, 2009, 04:22:00 AM
lol
Down here for Sun 'n Fun, I'm guessing?
Multiple reasons. I figured I would use Sun n' Fun as a distraction while I take things over.
Well, enjoy your time here in the Sunshine State! :)
YGBSM!
Are any of the allegations connected to HWSRN? Wouldn't surprise me.
Anyone know what the allegations are? PM me, I wouldn't want it up in public.
Quote from: NIN on April 18, 2009, 03:56:02 AMThe way I heard it, guys, was that someone had made some allegations and the BoG elected to have the IG look at the complaints. Mind you: having the IG look at the complaints != the investigatee is even suspected of actually doing the things that its alleged were done. Its more like dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's" to ensure that whats fair is fair.
The complaints were looked at and there was no finding.
This, by the way, is very standard IG process stuff. If someone files a formal complaint, an IG needs to analyze the complaint. It is during this analysis that the IG makes a preliminary determination as to whether a full-blown investigation is needed. There are other options as well (the IG could help the complainant resolve the dispute at the lowest possible command level, the IG could dismiss the complaint, etc.)
That initial step -- the complaint analysis -- is not an investigation. IOW, Gen Courter was not the subject of an investigation. She was the subject of a complaint that was deemed to be unfounded. Which is not an uncommon occurrence. Especially if the complaint was an "I don't like this" instead of "This violates CAP regulations".
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 18, 2009, 05:06:19 AM
YGBSM!
Are any of the allegations connected to HWSRN? Wouldn't surprise me.
Anyone know what the allegations are? PM me, I wouldn't want it up in public.
Anybody who "knows" what the allegations are has been "told" by the IG to not discuss this with anyone.
This is standard procedure for IG complaint investigations.
Quote from: JC004 on April 18, 2009, 04:15:26 AM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on April 18, 2009, 02:54:12 AM
Since we don't know what they are, I have a GREAT idea!
Let's all speculate on what they MIGHT be. We've never done THAT here before, have we?
Great idea, Kach!
Hey...considering I'm in FL for the next few days, could you help me take over the wing while I'm here? Helps to have someone who knows the territory.
Where you at? Drop me a PM if you will be near the Kennedy Space Center. I will get you some free passes.
I wonder why the Col mentioned it in the newsletter at all. Just spreading seeds of speculation...
I have to agree with MSgt Van. Almost sounds to me like the Col that initially mentioned it is trying to make a name for himself. It happens everyday. Someone is accused of something and then they're tried in the press, even before a full investigation has been made. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
It's a shame to see good officers like her drug through the mud. No wonder there's so few good senior leaders.
I find it interesting people are making light of some complaint and joking but when another National Commander was complained on people were ready for his head. Interesting.
Quote from: flyguy06 on April 19, 2009, 01:34:50 AM
I find it interesting people are making light of some complaint and joking but when another National Commander was complained on people were ready for his head. Interesting.
Thats because we had 8-10 years of foreknowledge that HWSNBN was not someone to be trusted. And his track record eventually showed it.
MG Courter's record is precisely the opposite.
Ohh, ok. thanks for the understanding.itry not to get involved in al thehe said she said stuff. i am just in CAP to have fun. Not to gossip
Quote from: flyguy06 on April 19, 2009, 04:34:46 AM
Ohh, ok. thanks for the understanding.itry not to get involved in al thehe said she said stuff. i am just in CAP to have fun. Not to gossip
Uh... what?
Anywho, I am actually more surprised that she has gone this long WITHOUT a complaint. Not because of her conduct. I've honestly heard nothing but good things about her.
Rather, it's just the nature of the position. It's not the CC's job to make everyone happy, and someone who gets the raw end of a deal is going to get honked off enough to try to take on the CC. I don't see why people think this is anything even worth talking about. It happens at squadron, wing, and region level. It happens outside of CAP. It happens at school. It happens in regular politics. It happens at the office.
So what's the big deal?
Quote from: Nathan on April 19, 2009, 07:06:35 AMIt happens outside of CAP. It happens at school. It happens in regular politics. It happens at the office.
A point I hadn't considered. An individual in my unit has been engaging in similar antics since my little adventure started. He's from halfway across the country, barely knows anything about me now (who wants to get to know a person that trashes you?), much less when we even started.
I'd like to ask the person who started trashing Courter for legitimate proof of their claims. I've found that demanding proof tends to shut them up. When they can't handle such demands, you usually don't hear much more from them.
QuoteAnyone know what the allegations are? PM me, I wouldn't want it up in public.
They have been for some time. Just google CAPTalk. Keep in mind, an allegation is just that. It is not a fact.
So a Wing Commander acknowledged the allegations. He did not state it was over. Other posters here claim the whole thing is over - so what is the official word. Is it over and done with or is/are the investigation(s) continuing?
I wouldn't believe everything you hear or read folks. People have a habit of relaying partial or incorrect information (especially the further down "the grape vine" it goes), and even making it sound worse if there's some sort of revenge, or gain for themselves. So, basically, all that's going on is "gossip", and just makes things worse and more confusing. If the whole thing is over, it's over. If it's not, then eventually everyone will know the outcome and what happened...Otherwise, I think everyone is just "banging their head" trying to figure it out, when all the information is just "hear say" anyway.
Quote from: PHall on April 18, 2009, 03:01:15 AMAnd you brought this up for what reason?
Like it or not, this is major news related to the head of the organization confirmed by a member of the National Board in a public newsletter.
While I bet every CAP national commander has probably had someone file complaints against them, most of which are probably baseless and easily dismissed, the fact that these discussions were characterized as "rather difficult" seems like it would be quite unusual and would indicate that the complaints were not entirely without merit.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 19, 2009, 03:13:09 PMWhile I bet every CAP national commander has probably had someone file complaints against them, most of which are probably baseless and easily dismissed, the fact that these discussions were characterized as "rather difficult" seems like it would be quite unusual and would indicate that the complaints were not entirely without merit.
I think you're reading too much into it. Any time you're being subjected to frivolous complaints, its "difficult" to get the business of the organization done while at the same time dealing with the investigation and all that junk. Not to mention that I believe the BoG was the ones who directed the investigation or, perhaps more precisely, the involvement of the IG. (ie. as dwb said, sometimes there is a complaint w/o a corresponding full-blown investigation, since a cursory examination of the facts reveals that there is nothing to investigate..)
The whole thing sounds like sour grapes on the part of some folks who wish the status quo would remain. Its always "difficult" to effect a cultural change on an organization, especially surrounding something as nebulous (to some folks who lack them) as
ethics and
integrity. This could be things like people feel their power is threatened, individuals who reached certain places in the organization not based on what they knew or what they could do, but rather on who they were friends with or what dirt they had on "the other guy," etc. IOW, people who might be in higher positions than they really should be based on their abilities, knowledge and personal values and feel that the only way they can remain relevant and "move up in the world" is to try to "take out" what appears to be the sole threat to their continued existence.
Its like the Wild West: A new sheriff rolls into town, and the shadier characters are the ones who are worried. The folks who are doing their jobs, doing it well, and are operating on the correct side of the ethics & values equation have next to zero to fear. But the guy bootlegging 'shine, the fellow with the speakeasy, and the guy who runs the local brothel are immediately scheming ways to bump off the new lawman, the threat to their way of doing business.
NIN, it is entirely possible that I'm reading too much into that paragrah and conversely, I think its possible that you're speculating (sour grapes, etc.) a bit beyond the available facts as well. We have no evidence of what these complaints were actually about or who made them.
Quote from: RiverAux on April 19, 2009, 04:26:40 PM
NIN, it is entirely possible that I'm reading too much into that paragrah and conversely, I think its possible that you're speculating (sour grapes, etc.) a bit beyond the available facts as well. We have no evidence of what these complaints were actually about or who made them.
Actually, I probably have a *bit* more info than you do. (and "sour grapes" is a gross oversimplification on my part) :)
And my wing commander is the one who wrote the cited article.
NIN....I couldn't agree with you more! That's the point I was trying to make in a brief quote (let the officials deal with it, when the final outcome is heard, and it's official, then start making noise on whether you think it's right or wrong). None of us were actually there as a witness! So, you can't assume anything!
If it were THAT BIG OF A DEAL, I'm sure the acused would be suspended (no matter who they are), and a the secondary replacement would act in their stead...That has not happened!....Maybe everyone is making something out of nothing!
I suggest everyone to focus on their duty to CAP, and stop worrying about what's happening with upper command until it's a final thing and is a hardship to you or your squadron.
A lot of people talk about lack of good leaders for a lot of reasons...Maybe this is a major influence....Too many people get caught up in CAP politics, instead of focusing on a level where they can actually do something!
QuoteIf it were THAT BIG OF A DEAL, I'm sure the acused would be suspended (no matter who they are), and a the secondary replacement would act in their stead...That has not happened!....Maybe everyone is making something out of nothing!
If these complaints were before the National Board then that means that one of these three things happened following an investigation of the complaints by the National Legal Officer:
1. The NLO determined that there was probable cause for removing the Nat Cdr based on personal misconduct. The NB would then have to convene and consider her removal. If the NLO first presented his report at a scheduled NB meeting, then there would be no need to suspend the Nat Cdr as that is only done for the period between when the report is presented and when the NB considers it.
2. The NLO determined that there was not probable cause for removing the Nat Cdr for personal misconduct, but a majority of NB members submitted ballots overturning that decision, which would lead to it being discussed at the NB.
3. If the complaints were about something other than personal conduct, it means that a majority of the NB members signed a petition demanding the Nat Cdr be removed, leading to the discussions at the NB.
These are the only real options for bringing charges against the Nat Cdr. So, the very fact that they were brought up at a NB meeting means that either the NLO or a majority of the NB thought they had merit. They wouldn't have been discussed if they were thought not credible by the NLO or a majority of the NB.
However, even if a majority of the NB thought they had merit, it takes 2/3 members to vote her out.
Never the less, that should be up to those involved and not discussed here on CAPtalk. Remember, you don't have to be a member of CAP, or go through OPSEC to be a part of CAPtalk. Let's let the people who are suppose to handle it do so, and not make "muddy waters"!
Waiving CAP's dirty laundry in public certainly isn't the organizations first choice. If the alledged problems were settled quickly and the decision reported maybe this wouldn't have become a public issue. If it weren't for comments in CAPtalk and elsewhere none of us would even know an investigation was in progress. Keeping the membership in the dark is bad at all levels.
I hope the investigation process is completed soon and a decision reported. The longer this drags on the uglier the rumors will get.
If one of CAP's governing bodies was seriously considering the removal of the head of the organization, then it should not be done in secret.
How would everyone feel if they turned on their computer one day to find that the House of Representatives had impeached the President and the Senate convicted him of the charges and removed him from office, all without anyone in the country knowing what was going on?
The only time the general membership should NOT be well informed about the status of complaints against the National Commander is if the NLO investigated them, found no probable cause, and the NB failed to override that decision by submitting ballots to that effect by mail after receiving a report. In those cases we can assume that the charges were probably without any merit and there is no need to air them in public.
But, if the NB as a body is at any time is actually discussing the charges in one of their meetings, then we should know what is going on.
QuoteJust google CAPTalk.
That should have been google CAP Insights. And take everything you read there with several grains of salt.
I agree 100% the membership needs to know about investigations concerning the National commander. There is no official NHQ statement about this that I have seen, that just encourages the rumor mill.
^ Since the final results are all that matter, why not wait until we read "nothing was substantiated", or "this is what was found......".
Quote from: RRLE on April 19, 2009, 10:24:30 PM
QuoteJust google CAPTalk.
That should have been google CAP Insights. And take everything you read there with several grains of salt.
Read the "Who is..." section first.
Apparently, the individual running the site thinks very highly of himself.
Word on the street is he who thinks highly of himself is very well connected and it just may be so that some of the information that "he who thinks highly of himself"is posting over there might be valid? ??? ???
Quote from: RAZOR on April 21, 2009, 11:13:44 PM
Word on the street is he who thinks highly of himself is very well connected and it just may be so that some of the information that "he who thinks highly of himself"is posting over there might be valid? ??? ???
What street is that word on? The dead end?
"he who thinks highly of himself" is short on valid information and logic, and very long on his own self importance. Draw your own conclusions.
Quote from: NIN on April 22, 2009, 02:42:51 AM
"he who thinks highly of himself" is short on valid information and logic, and very long on his own self importance. Draw your own conclusions.
When you're drawing those conclusions, it helps to have at least an average memory. His "primitive" (his words, not mine) blog is dumped regularly so that you can't catch him contradicting himself. Anyone who makes as many claims as he does, and makes claims that he has backed up all his claims, without actually offering said proof is to be read for entertainment value only.
I don't know about you, but when I log on in the morning I get my Schlock-fix (www.schlockmercenary.com - AWESOME online comic), then move over to CAPInsights for the next big laugh of the day.
Well, CAPInsights would be funny, if it wasn't so pitiful. He gives a whole new meaning to the word "delusional".
Folks, I think we're straying just a bit. I'd sort of like to keep this thread un-locked in case there is new confirmed info (not rumors from some of the sources mentioned) on this issue. It may not happen, but you never know.
The results of investigations into IG complaints are not normally released to the public.
Quote from: PHall on April 22, 2009, 04:34:36 AM
The results of investigations into IG complaints are not normally released to the public.
In this case the IG system isn't involved.