I was looking to earn my pre solo rating, but wondered if I could achieve through the civilian world and not CAP, I know there is something about using the CAP form 5, I just graduated from the IL encampment :) and the cadet commander was talking about how he earned his wings and mentioned he went the civilian route but did not go into great detail. Any additional information on how to earn it and what forms I would need to verify it would be helpful. Thank you
Per National:
Quote
CAP Cadet Pre-solo Rating:
The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP cadet Pre-Solo Pilot. This qualification may only be earned at an organized wing or higher level flight encampment / academy.
1. Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
2. Have received the required instruction from a CAP Instructor Pilot (CFI/CFIG), at a wing level or higher flight encampment / academy and have a written record documenting instruction of all items of FAR 61.87 in the appropriate aircraft.
3. Complete a pre-solo qualification flight.
-Pre-solo qualification flight: A flight performed at a CAP wing level or higher flight encampment/academy during which the CAP student pilot demonstrates, to an onboard CAP Instructor Pilot (CFI/CFIG), that the student pilot has the ability to fly the aircraft without assistance from the on board CAP CFI. This flight does not require an FAA endorsement and does not fulfill FAA requirements for solo flight; however the prerequisite for a pre-solo qualification is completion of all requirements in the appropriate portion of FAR 61.87.
Found Here: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/PreSolo_Pilot_53E982BDD9E4D.pdf
So if the cadet commander is wearing the pre-solo wings but did not get them from a CAP flight academy, he is wrong. You could tactfully send this his way to let him know and see what he does, Integrity y'know...
I couldn't tell if he had his pre solo or solo, but I know for a fact he had his wings. Not being disrespectful at all, but if I learn everything I need to know from a family friend for example, or even a non CAP flight academy. Back to the cadet commander, he said he had his private pilots license and this is just speculation, but I'm guessing his instructor signed the CAP form 5 and then someone from CAP signed off on it. To me it seems there are a lot of loopholes. Thank you
The C/CC of the encampment is a full VFR pilot, with an active Form 5, so
that is likely where the term came into the conversation.
He is / was wearing VFR Pilot wings.
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0720/2413/products/cap6109_grande.jpg)
A "Form 5" is shorthand for the checkride all new and renewing pilots must complete annually.
You do not have to compete your pilot training in a CAP environment, and in fact
most new members / pilots do not. You simply have to meet the qualifications in regards to
membership, age, and licensing, and then can request a checkride with a Stan / Eval pilot.
Once you successfully complete a Form 5 checkride, you are qualified to be awarded the CAP Pilot wings.
This is not a "loophole" this is how the program works.
As mentioned, "pre-solo" is a CAP-specific term and must be completed within a CAP training
environment as indicated.
Congrats, BTW, on a great encampment!
Quote from: Arc light on May 03, 2017, 03:09:10 AM
I couldn't tell if he had his pre solo or solo, but I know for a fact he had his wings. Not being disrespectful at all, but if I learn everything I need to know from a family friend for example, or even a non CAP flight academy. Back to the cadet commander, he said he had his private pilots license and this is just speculation, but I'm guessing his instructor signed the CAP form 5 and then someone from CAP signed off on it. To me it seems there are a lot of loopholes. Thank you
Loopholes? Nah. I'd call it advantageous phrasing. :D On my initial PPL checkride, I asked the examiner to complete and validate my CAPF 5, and with a CAP instructor's signature too on the relevant section, knocked out two birds with one stone.
Eclipse, you are correct, I went online and googled his name and looked at his blues and he had those wings. Thank you for the clarification, still I'm a little dissapointed that I could not earn my pre solo at a private pilots school, oh well, I only wanted it for the experience. Thank you all for your help
Quote from: Arc light on May 03, 2017, 03:45:02 AM
Eclipse, you are correct, I went online and googled his name and looked at his blues and he had those wings. Thank you for the clarification, still I'm a little dissapointed that I could not earn my pre solo at a private pilots school, oh well, I only wanted it for the experience. Thank you all for your help
If you are going to go to all of the expense and trouble of getting a pilot's license outside of CAP, then I recommend forgetting about the wings and focusing on the learning and training. Once you have your pilot's license, you can take a CAP form 5 checkride and earn actual wings. It is also possible to earn actual solo wings with training outside of CAP, though a CAP instructor pilot will have to endorse your logbook.
To be clear, the pre-solo wings are intended as an award to recognize cadets who went to either powered or glider flight academies and did not actually solo. They are a runner up prize and not a primary award that anyone really strives for.
Quote from: jeders on May 03, 2017, 02:22:15 PM
To be clear, the pre-solo wings are intended as an award to recognize cadets who went to either powered or glider flight academies and did not actually solo. They are a runner up prize and not a primary award that anyone really strives for.
That's a rather pessimistic statement Jeders, and I completely disagree.
Take glider academy for example. Students are not permitted to solo during their first academy, nor until they have 30 flights logged. It's quite an achievement to go from zero flight experience, to 6 days and 15 flights later, completing a flight with zero input from the instructor sitting behind you. I was proud as hell of my pre-solo wings as a 14 year old cadet.
Quote from: Arc light on May 03, 2017, 03:45:02 AM
Eclipse, you are correct, I went online and googled his name and looked at his blues and he had those wings. Thank you for the clarification, still I'm a little dissapointed that I could not earn my pre solo at a private pilots school, oh well, I only wanted it for the experience. Thank you all for your help
I mean...Eclipse has worked very closely with the said cadet, so of course he'd know.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 03, 2017, 03:21:49 AM
The C/CC of the encampment is a full VFR pilot, with an active Form 5, so
that is likely where the term came into the conversation.
He is / was wearing VFR Pilot wings.
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0720/2413/products/cap6109_grande.jpg)
Wait a second...he was wearing exccusemeWHATS?
There is no such thing as "VFR Pilot wings" because CAP doesn't have a "VFR pilot" rating. The pilot ratings are:
a. CAP Cadet Pre-solo Rating
b. CAP Solo Pilot Rating
c. CAP Pilot Rating
d. CAP Senior Pilot Rating
e. CAP Command Pilot Rating
f. CAP Glider Pilot Rating
g. CAP Balloon Pilot Rating.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 03, 2017, 08:01:46 PM
There is no such thing as "VFR Pilot wings" because CAP doesn't have a "VFR pilot" rating. The pilot ratings are:
eServices disagrees.
(http://s13.postimg.org/488xzcm2v/IMG_20170503_151821.jpg)
Quote from: Eclipse on May 03, 2017, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 03, 2017, 08:01:46 PM
There is no such thing as "VFR Pilot wings" because CAP doesn't have a "VFR pilot" rating. The pilot ratings are:
eServices disagrees.
(http://s13.postimg.org/488xzcm2v/IMG_20170503_151821.jpg)
So does 60-1.
When I joined as a Senior Member, I went to the G1000 ground school. I was then checked out Form 5 as a VFR Pilot qualified with the G1000. I could then rent the plane for C12 flights.
Then I had to go through some ISO courses and GES to become a Transport Mission Pilot and during that same check ride I made O'Ride Pilot as well.
I then got qualified as MS and then MO , and then started on the SQTR sheet for Mission Pilot, and after passing the Form 91 became a MP.
Currently working on finishing up IFR training so I can be Instrument Rated G1000 soon.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 03, 2017, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 03, 2017, 08:01:46 PM
There is no such thing as "VFR Pilot wings" because CAP doesn't have a "VFR pilot" rating. The pilot ratings are:
eServices disagrees.
(http://s13.postimg.org/488xzcm2v/IMG_20170503_151821.jpg)
That's a totally irrelevant mixing of apples and oranges.
"Ratings" determine the wings awarded. The various other designations are qualifications. There is no separate aeronautical rating for Mission Pilot, Orientation Pilot or IFR Pilot.
A pilot qualified as a Mission Pilot and Orientation Pilot will wear wings appropriate to the rating earned. They don't change ratings by adding qualifications. In fact, what you have erroneously called "VFR Pilot rating" could be worn by an instrument rated Pilot.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 03, 2017, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 03, 2017, 08:01:46 PM
There is no such thing as "VFR Pilot wings" because CAP doesn't have a "VFR pilot" rating. The pilot ratings are:
eServices disagrees.
(http://s13.postimg.org/488xzcm2v/IMG_20170503_151821.jpg)
Again, confusing ratings with qualifications.
Quote from: etodd on May 04, 2017, 02:39:29 AM
When I joined as a Senior Member, I went to the G1000 ground school. I was then checked out Form 5 as a VFR Pilot qualified with the G1000. I could then rent the plane for C12 flights.
Then I had to go through some ISO courses and GES to become a Transport Mission Pilot and during that same check ride I made O'Ride Pilot as well.
I then got qualified as MS and then MO , and then started on the SQTR sheet for Mission Pilot, and after passing the Form 91 became a MP.
Currently working on finishing up IFR training so I can be Instrument Rated G1000 soon.
I'll take your word for it. But no e of that, alone, changes the RATING held. That won't change until years of service and flying hour requirements are met - and they can be met without Instrument ratings or becoming a Mission Pilot, Orientation Pilot, etc.
Ratings, direct from eServices:
Solo Pilot Rating
Pilot Rating
Senior Pilot Rating
Command Pilot Rating
Glider Pilot Rating
Balloon Pilot Rating
CAP Observer Rating
CAP Senior Observer Rating
CAP Master Observer Rating
CAP Aircrew Rating
CAP Senior Aircrew Rating
CAP Master Aircrew Rating
That's the stuff you wear on your uniform, not necessarily what's on your 101 card.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 04, 2017, 06:58:12 AM
Ratings, direct from eServices:
Solo Pilot Rating
Pilot Rating
Senior Pilot Rating
Command Pilot Rating
Glider Pilot Rating
Balloon Pilot Rating
CAP Observer Rating
CAP Senior Observer Rating
CAP Master Observer Rating
CAP Aircrew Rating
CAP Senior Aircrew Rating
CAP Master Aircrew Rating
That's the stuff you wear on your uniform, not necessarily what's on your 101 card.
Yes. That.
Take one look at somebody wearing pilot wings and what you know, ALL you know, from appearances is "That person is a rated PILOT." O-ride pilot, Mission Pilot, others, do not matter for purposes of the rating (as opposed to qualifications).
I've NEVER heard of anyone looking at pilot wings and saying "Oh, a VFR pilot." Especially when IFR pilots could wear the same wings - and there are no seperate wings for "IFR pilot."
QuoteBalloon Pilot Rating
Off topic question, is this rating for just hot air balloons or does it include powered airships (i.e. blimps, dirigible, etc.)?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: shuman14 on May 04, 2017, 12:45:06 PM
QuoteBalloon Pilot Rating
Off topic question, is this rating for just hot air balloons or does it include powered airships (i.e. blimps, dirigible, etc.)?
Thanks in advance.
Just balloons. The others are not permitted. From CAPR60-1:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, light sport aircraft, rotorcraft,
lighter-than-air (except balloons), experimental, primary category and home-built aircraft are not
authorized for use on any CAP flight activity
Quote from: shuman14 on May 04, 2017, 12:45:06 PM
QuoteBalloon Pilot Rating
Off topic question, is this rating for just hot air balloons or does it include powered airships (i.e. blimps, dirigible, etc.)?
Thanks in advance.
Hot Air Balloons, we have an unlimited supply of fuel for those! >:D
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 04, 2017, 09:03:07 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 04, 2017, 06:58:12 AM
Ratings, direct from eServices:
Solo Pilot Rating
Pilot Rating
Senior Pilot Rating
Command Pilot Rating
Glider Pilot Rating
Balloon Pilot Rating
CAP Observer Rating
CAP Senior Observer Rating
CAP Master Observer Rating
CAP Aircrew Rating
CAP Senior Aircrew Rating
CAP Master Aircrew Rating
That's the stuff you wear on your uniform, not necessarily what's on your 101 card.
Yes. That.
Take one look at somebody wearing pilot wings and what you know, ALL you know, from appearances is "That person is a rated PILOT." O-ride pilot, Mission Pilot, others, do not matter for purposes of the rating (as opposed to qualifications).
I've NEVER heard of anyone looking at pilot wings and saying "Oh, a VFR pilot." Especially when IFR pilots could wear the same wings - and there are no seperate wings for "IFR pilot."
Ah ... now I get it. You just think all these ratings should have a separate ribbon/insignia/whatever so you can tell who is who. LOL
My first polo shirt did not have wings. Sometimes when my shirt with wings is in the laundry, I'll wear the one without wings at all to actually fly the plane as Mission Pilot! Aghast! Oh, the horror of it all! >:D
Quote from: etodd on May 04, 2017, 07:08:41 PM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 04, 2017, 09:03:07 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 04, 2017, 06:58:12 AM
Ratings, direct from eServices:
Solo Pilot Rating
Pilot Rating
Senior Pilot Rating
Command Pilot Rating
Glider Pilot Rating
Balloon Pilot Rating
CAP Observer Rating
CAP Senior Observer Rating
CAP Master Observer Rating
CAP Aircrew Rating
CAP Senior Aircrew Rating
CAP Master Aircrew Rating
That's the stuff you wear on your uniform, not necessarily what's on your 101 card.
Yes. That.
Take one look at somebody wearing pilot wings and what you know, ALL you know, from appearances is "That person is a rated PILOT." O-ride pilot, Mission Pilot, others, do not matter for purposes of the rating (as opposed to qualifications).
I've NEVER heard of anyone looking at pilot wings and saying "Oh, a VFR pilot." Especially when IFR pilots could wear the same wings - and there are no seperate wings for "IFR pilot."
Ah ... now I get it. You just think all these ratings should have a separate ribbon/insignia/whatever so you can tell who is who. LOL
My first polo shirt did not have wings. Sometimes when my shirt with wings is in the laundry, I'll wear the one without wings at all to actually fly the plane as Mission Pilot! Aghast! Oh, the horror of it all! >:D
No. I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I said the opposite.
This entire thread was in response to Eclipse erroneously referring to CAP Pilot wings as "VFR pilot wings," a rating which does not exist.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 06, 2017, 05:03:50 AM
This entire thread was in response to Eclipse erroneously referring to CAP Pilot wings as "VFR pilot wings," a rating which does not exist.
Seriously?
It's right there, and I / we use the term all the time.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2017, 11:01:47 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 06, 2017, 05:03:50 AM
This entire thread was in response to Eclipse erroneously referring to CAP Pilot wings as "VFR pilot wings," a rating which does not exist.
Seriously?
It's right there, and I / we use the term all the time.
As noted above, the wings you posted are for CAP Pilot. Nothing more, nothing less. They imply that the wearer meets certain minimum requirements to fly CAP planes.
VFR Pilot is a qualification, not a rating. The wings correspond with the ratings. Also, CAP ratings and FAA ratings are different, so CMEL, CFII (FAA rating) garners no additional recognition in CAP with respect to their bling.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 06, 2017, 07:29:52 PM
..... garners no additional recognition in CAP with respect to their bling.
Once one becomes 'any' kind of pilot status ... no additional recognition is needed anyway. Its the mission, not the bling.
(http://navalaviation.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/295x295/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/im-an-aviator-white-20-oz-333_1401.jpg)
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2017, 11:01:47 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 06, 2017, 05:03:50 AM
This entire thread was in response to Eclipse erroneously referring to CAP Pilot wings as "VFR pilot wings," a rating which does not exist.
Seriously?
It's right there, and I / we use the term all the time.
Yes, seriously. And if you use the term all the time, then you are incorrect all the time.
Try this: post a photo of "IFR pilot wings" and explain the difference.
(Hint: you can't. Because they don't exist, anymore than do VFR pilot wings).
Whats up with you guys? LOL
You can call me a VFR Pilot ... Transport Pilot ... Mission Pilot ... or Whatever. It doesn't matter to me. All I know is that I get to fly and enjoy views like this.
(http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/c135.0.810.810/13388717_1139511852782165_271770956_n.jpg)
Quote from: etodd on May 06, 2017, 11:45:36 PM
Whats up with you guys? LOL
It's what you get when you cross OCD with ADD. >:D
QuoteJust balloons. The others are not permitted. From CAPR60-1:
2-4. Aircraft Requirements.
a. Ultralight, aerolight, hang glider and similar aircraft, light sport aircraft, rotorcraft,
lighter-than-air (except balloons), experimental, primary category and home-built aircraft are not
authorized for use on any CAP flight activity
Thanks Thrawn.
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 06, 2017, 11:01:03 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on May 06, 2017, 11:01:47 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on May 06, 2017, 05:03:50 AM
This entire thread was in response to Eclipse erroneously referring to CAP Pilot wings as "VFR pilot wings," a rating which does not exist.
Seriously?
It's right there, and I / we use the term all the time.
Yes, seriously. And if you use the term all the time, then you are incorrect all the time.
Try this: post a photo of "IFR pilot wings" and explain the difference.
(Hint: you can't. Because they don't exist, anymore than do VFR pilot wings).
Per CAPM 60-1 3-7. Classification of CAP Pilots:
"b. CAP VFR Pilot. Must be qualified in accordance with FAA regulations to operate the
CAP aircraft flown at the private pilot level or higher and satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight
evaluation within the previous 12 calendar months.
c. CAP Instrument Pilot. Must be a qualified CAP VFR pilot that is FAA rated to fly
instruments and satisfactorily complete an instrument endorsement on a CAPF 5 within the
previous 12 calendar months. FAA instrument currency is not required for this endorsement.
The endorsement expires with the expiration of the current annual CAPF 5 evaluation."
You wear the same badge (the wings) but the minimum rating is VFR Pilot to wear them otherwise you'd be solo or pre-solo (although the latter isn't an actual aeronautical rating). Ratings and qualifications and badges are different things. I think you may be getting wrapped around the axle with the precise phraseology we're talking about here.